knicks1248 wrote:

TPercy wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:this guy is being paid 1 million less then pop and he's the 4th highest paid coach in the league, 12 fckng wins, phill could have gotten any space cadet to coach 12 wins.

You seem to be looking at the situation from an ignorant standpoint that is oblivious to the details that impacts it.

TPercy wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:this guy is being paid 1 million less then pop and he's the 4th highest paid coach in the league, 12 fckng wins, phill could have gotten any space cadet to coach 12 wins.

You seem to be looking at the situation from an ignorant standpoint that is oblivious to the details that impacts it.

What details, you need to take off the fantasy glasses and deal with reality. I never said anything bad about Fisher, I just simply said he is not ready to be a head coach, not now, not next year or the year after that. He's young, He's raw, and He needs time, time we don't have with a 30 yr old 125 million dollar player on a suspect knee.

Why can't you folks realize the deeper part of the picture and stop looking at the surface. We already know the roster is trash trash trash, but he hasn't establish himself as a head coach at any point in the season.

He will be let go, it's just a matter of time. Why avoid the inevitable, just like he saw the roster wasn't good enough and dismantled it quick fast in a hurry, thats what he needs to do with fish..

Unless phil can get a top 5 pg, and some serious veterans who know how to win and a stud draft pick, Fisher doesn't have a glimmer of hope.

If you give him an avg roster or a young roster, and ask him to make those players better,he will suffer. He doesn't have the experience, thats fkng reality.

Some guys are not meant to be head coaches, why is that so hard to believe. You remember Magic, great player, great leader, terrible coach and he knew it.

There's nothing dumb about what I'm saying. I brought up the salary because he's paid like a big boy coach, just like ppl have a problem with melo making super star money, but doesn't play super star basketball. Coaches get fired when they win and don't bigger enough, and coaches get fired when they lose with a ****yy roster. You have to see progress on some level or else whats the point.

I pretty much agree with you. If someone wants to say Fisher knew how to coach at the beginning of the season, how could you argue with that? He clearly was clueless.

Regardless of his learning curve, that the franchise invested $124M in Melo & $60M in Jax and then Jax gives a very fat contract to a guy who has never coached at any level says a whole lot about what is wrong with this organization.

It has nothing to do with liking Fisher as a person, player or even as a potential coach. But it has a whole lot with stacking the odds against you. Players transitioning immediately into head coaching spots is risky at best. This was just bad management from the very start. Another reason why Phil has been a disaster as a GM in his first year.

I'm not saying Fisher couldn't become a good coach. But he sure as hell is not one now. It should be fairly easy to separate that criteria from roster evaluations. A real coach would have won more games earlier in the season. It is obvious. Blaming it all on talent alone is ludicrous.

This perfect storm of ineptitude was a results of lower grade, mismatched talent combined with a rookie coach and a rookie GM.

And that is mostly on Phil. Fish gets some kind of pass only because he did what most anybody would do when someone says:

"Hey dude! I know you're not an astronaut, but if I give you $25M will you fly my spaceship?"

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

TPercy wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:this guy is being paid 1 million less then pop and he's the 4th highest paid coach in the league, 12 fckng wins, phill could have gotten any space cadet to coach 12 wins.

You seem to be looking at the situation from an ignorant standpoint that is oblivious to the details that impacts it.

TPercy wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:this guy is being paid 1 million less then pop and he's the 4th highest paid coach in the league, 12 fckng wins, phill could have gotten any space cadet to coach 12 wins.

You seem to be looking at the situation from an ignorant standpoint that is oblivious to the details that impacts it.

What details, you need to take off the fantasy glasses and deal with reality. I never said anything bad about Fisher, I just simply said he is not ready to be a head coach, not now, not next year or the year after that. He's young, He's raw, and He needs time, time we don't have with a 30 yr old 125 million dollar player on a suspect knee.

Why can't you folks realize the deeper part of the picture and stop looking at the surface. We already know the roster is trash trash trash, but he hasn't establish himself as a head coach at any point in the season.

He will be let go, it's just a matter of time. Why avoid the inevitable, just like he saw the roster wasn't good enough and dismantled it quick fast in a hurry, thats what he needs to do with fish..

Unless phil can get a top 5 pg, and some serious veterans who know how to win and a stud draft pick, Fisher doesn't have a glimmer of hope.

If you give him an avg roster or a young roster, and ask him to make those players better,he will suffer. He doesn't have the experience, thats fkng reality.

Some guys are not meant to be head coaches, why is that so hard to believe. You remember Magic, great player, great leader, terrible coach and he knew it.

There's nothing dumb about what I'm saying. I brought up the salary because he's paid like a big boy coach, just like ppl have a problem with melo making super star money, but doesn't play super star basketball. Coaches get fired when they win and don't bigger enough, and coaches get fired when they lose with a ****yy roster. You have to see progress on some level or else whats the point.

You seem to be underestimating the degree to which the talent on the floor is responsible for wins verses the coach. It ALWAYS starts with the talent. After that you look at the coach and how much he can guide the team and maximize his players abilities. It's like a Jockey riding a prize horse. If it's a nag no great jockey will be able to make it win, but if it's great horse against a tough field a great jockey can help that horse to maximize it's race that can lead to a win. It's starts with the horse tho. We don't have the horses.

Every Coach needs Talent to compete consistently, but talent needs direction and development.

When Byron Scott got the coaching gig with the NETS, I use to tell people that Byron sucked as a head coach, if it wasn't for Kidd no way that team makes the playoffs let alone the finals(in which they got swept in back to back trips). When kidd was traded for Marbury, Byron got fired little after. Then he went to N O and found himself with another top notch PG in CP3, and he had more success, as soon as paul left, he got fired little after.

Bad coaches Need great PGs if they want to have success. Fisher is going to need that big time, 6 wks left in the season and fisher has no identity whatsoever, the only thing we know about fisher is that he's a positive dude, with a cool even keel personality. Thats not going to cut it in NY.

You may say that the triangle doesn't need a marquee PG, but from the very fist game of the season until now, the knicks only run the triangle for a hot second and after that it's WTF are they doing..Thats why in his case you do need veterans who know how to run it and are discipline, if you don't, the learning curb will be very long, and phil will be scratching his fckng head like a dog with fleas.

knicks1248 wrote:

What details

People are asking for details as to why you think Fisher is the not ready to be a head coach. You are making generalizations based on the overall performance of a team with a trash roster. What expectations did you have for Fisher that he is not accomplishing with this roster....or the early season roster for that matter (which was filled with malcontent, mediocre, overpaid, past their prime and injured veterans. What specifically is Fisher doing (or not doing) that he should be doing (or not doing) better?

I just simply said he is not ready to be a head coach, not now, not next year or the year after that.

As with above, what is he specifically doing or not doing that makes you think this? Let's say the Knicks were hypothetically able to bring in Pops to coach this roster. How would he coach this current D League roster up to make the results any different?

He's young, He's raw, and He needs time, time we don't have with a 30 yr old 125 million dollar player on a suspect knee.

This line of thinking got the Knicks into their current situation. The Knicks do not expire after Melo ages and becomes ineffective. A prudent plan to revamp the roster should include Melo, not be built around Melo....and this includes the coaching staff.

he hasn't establish himself as a head coach at any point in the season.

Not even sure what this means. Sounds like some kind of cliche statement

He will be let go, it's just a matter of time. Why avoid the inevitable, just like he saw the roster wasn't good enough and dismantled it quick fast in a hurry, thats what he needs to do with fish..

Because Fisher was JUST brought in this year. So perhaps you know that he sucks (without providing any examples)...but many of the rest of us look at the entire situation and want to see more of how it plays out before playing judge, jury and executioner.

Unless phil can get a top 5 pg, and some serious veterans who know how to win and a stud draft pick, Fisher doesn't have a glimmer of hope. If you give him an avg roster or a young roster, and ask him to make those players better,he will suffer. He doesn't have the experience, thats fkng reality.

Please indicate which replacement coach you are thinking of who will come in under these circumstances and make the playoffs immediately.

Some guys are not meant to be head coaches, why is that so hard to believe. You remember Magic, great player, great leader, terrible coach and he knew it.

Terrible comparison. Magic was one of the all time best players and a leader on the floor. Fisher was a career middling player. Magic was a womanizer and marketing machine, bigger than life. Fisher is/was relatively low key. It remains to be seen what unfolds for Fisher as a HC, but using Magic as an example does nothing to forward your point.

There's nothing dumb about what I'm saying. I brought up the salary because he's paid like a big boy coach, just like ppl have a problem with melo making super star money, but doesn't play super star basketball. Coaches get fired when they win and don't bigger enough, and coaches get fired when they lose with a ****yy roster. You have to see progress on some level or else whats the point.

It's difficult to measure progress when you are still in year one as a coach and your roster has been reduced to tank mode during the season. Even so, with the subtraction of JR and Shump, the team although vastly outgunned - has shown some bright moments. To me that represents in-season progress. One would think that you should be more readily able to measure progress at this point next year and make a better educated decision than the fire him now attitude you express in your posts.

jrodmc wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:Fisher's real clock won't start until next year IMO.

You are wrong, as always.

Fisher will get the full five years. As long as Jackson is here with the Knicks, then Fisher will be too.

There will likely be a lockout in the 2016/2017 season, who knows how long that will last. Franchises don't want to start whacking coaches during a lockout, they don't want that point of instability with an already complicated labor situation.

By the time anyone can really assess Fisher with a halfway decent roster, his contract will likely be up.

Nothing you just posted refutes my statement. I think Fish will be evaluated more seriously starting next season. I think that is both fair and reasonable.

I totally disagree with your premise that there won't be a halfway decent roster until his contract is likely finished. Why would it take nearly 5 years to put a decent team together?

Because this is the Knicks and
1) Dolan's an idiot to hire Phil at 60 million
2) Phil's an idiot to give Melo 124 million
3) Phils an idiot to give Fish 25 million
4) We will never have a decent team as long as that $124 million is on the books. Melo can't be on a team that wins 50 games. Oh, wait...
5) #4 emphasizes and highlights the stupidity of #1 through #3.
6) When in doubt, repost steps 1 through 5.
7) We just plain suck as a franchise.
8) It's been 40 years.

While most of that is actually true but hardly said, i do think there is a real concern as to Phil's talent evaluation. Phil actually believed the team he put together would be good enough for the playoffs. Thats a real concern going forward.

knickscity wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:Fisher's real clock won't start until next year IMO.

You are wrong, as always.

Fisher will get the full five years. As long as Jackson is here with the Knicks, then Fisher will be too.

There will likely be a lockout in the 2016/2017 season, who knows how long that will last. Franchises don't want to start whacking coaches during a lockout, they don't want that point of instability with an already complicated labor situation.

By the time anyone can really assess Fisher with a halfway decent roster, his contract will likely be up.

Nothing you just posted refutes my statement. I think Fish will be evaluated more seriously starting next season. I think that is both fair and reasonable.

I totally disagree with your premise that there won't be a halfway decent roster until his contract is likely finished. Why would it take nearly 5 years to put a decent team together?

Because this is the Knicks and
1) Dolan's an idiot to hire Phil at 60 million
2) Phil's an idiot to give Melo 124 million
3) Phils an idiot to give Fish 25 million
4) We will never have a decent team as long as that $124 million is on the books. Melo can't be on a team that wins 50 games. Oh, wait...
5) #4 emphasizes and highlights the stupidity of #1 through #3.
6) When in doubt, repost steps 1 through 5.
7) We just plain suck as a franchise.
8) It's been 40 years.

While most of that is actually true but hardly said, i do think there is a real concern as to Phil's talent evaluation. Phil actually believed the team he put together would be good enough for the playoffs. Thats a real concern going forward.

Here's one of my reasons. We will have full control over the make up of the roster going forward which wasn't really the case at the start of the season. We were still dealing with a lot of players from the previous regime and it wasn't practical to change everyone out at the very start of the season before we gave it a chance to see how they'd respond. Phil tried to take a practical approach to this season. He now has to bring in more talent than he may have wanted to do initially. In the end I think it's a blessing in disguise. If the team had played better it may have prolonged the move to get rid of unreliable players. Phil now is nearly 100% free to bring in the right kind of players. Also this is a bit longer process now but that doesn't have to be a bad thing. Especially if it ends up with us landing a core player for the future.

SupremeCommander wrote:My rule has been to give a new coach/GM or other front office guy 2.5 years before I damn them.

PJax and Fisher are both getting 2 years though after watching this season. It has been an absolute mockery and is likely offensive to the basketball gods. They need to accelerate this progress for no other reason than because it is embarrassing to admit to rooting for this pathetic team.

Melo gets next season before I write him off. He "played hurt" so I guess I have to give him a pass for this season, even though he embarrassed himself as an All Star at MSG.

I agree that Fisher needs another year to make a case for himself as a long term answer. I don't have any benchmarks. This team is snake bitten when it comes to injuries. Just want to see Fisher make the most of the roster he has, which should be much improved next season.

I give Phil a pass for this season as he is cleaning up a colossal mess. Next season the team will have his imprint, he will have plenty of time to find the best players, the best deals, no more huge contracts, malcontents to unload.

Would also like him to do less passive agressive tweeting next season. Needs to let FAs know that he is going to be around, not keeping his distance. Its like those cruises they offer where you get to meet your favorite star/musicians, and they end up spending all their time locked in their cabin. Show that the Zen Master will be a presence. It wont be enough to attract FAs alone, but every little bit helps IMO.

I agree that Melo embarrassed himself at the all star game, wish he would put his "branding" in storage,and worry more about staying healthy for the life of his contract.

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:Fisher's real clock won't start until next year IMO.

You are wrong, as always.

Fisher will get the full five years. As long as Jackson is here with the Knicks, then Fisher will be too.

There will likely be a lockout in the 2016/2017 season, who knows how long that will last. Franchises don't want to start whacking coaches during a lockout, they don't want that point of instability with an already complicated labor situation.

By the time anyone can really assess Fisher with a halfway decent roster, his contract will likely be up.

Nothing you just posted refutes my statement. I think Fish will be evaluated more seriously starting next season. I think that is both fair and reasonable.

I totally disagree with your premise that there won't be a halfway decent roster until his contract is likely finished. Why would it take nearly 5 years to put a decent team together?

Because this is the Knicks and
1) Dolan's an idiot to hire Phil at 60 million
2) Phil's an idiot to give Melo 124 million
3) Phils an idiot to give Fish 25 million
4) We will never have a decent team as long as that $124 million is on the books. Melo can't be on a team that wins 50 games. Oh, wait...
5) #4 emphasizes and highlights the stupidity of #1 through #3.
6) When in doubt, repost steps 1 through 5.
7) We just plain suck as a franchise.
8) It's been 40 years.

While most of that is actually true but hardly said, i do think there is a real concern as to Phil's talent evaluation. Phil actually believed the team he put together would be good enough for the playoffs. Thats a real concern going forward.

I don't think it says anything about what Phil will do going forward. The players we sent away are all pretty much playing well now. The problem may have been a combination of their lack of willingness to fully buy in and lack of fit for what we want to do. The thing is that Phil gave it a chance and once it was clear there would be no success with these players he pulled the plug. Now we're on a completely different path and I think it's folly to suggest that what happened at the start of this year is going to inform anything going forward.

Here's one of my reasons. We will have full control over the make up of the roster going forward which wasn't really the case at the start of the season. We were still dealing with a lot of players from the previous regime and it wasn't practical to change everyone out at the very start of the season before we gave it a chance to see how they'd respond. Phil tried to take a practical approach to this season. He now has to bring in more talent than he may have wanted to do initially. In the end I think it's a blessing in disguise. If the team had played better it may have prolonged the move to get rid of unreliable players. Phil now is nearly 100% free to bring in the right kind of players. Also this is a bit longer process now but that doesn't have to be a bad thing. Especially if it ends up with us landing a core player for the future.

That is the issue, Phil thought he had some of the right type this year, when he really didnt have much of anything. His evaluation is the concern and to be honest having a clean slate will highlight that fact going forward. If the team reaches some forms of success he will be credited for that, if it doesnt it will be squarely on him since he built it entirely. Keep in mind even Phil himself has admitted fault, so it's perfectly valid to reserve trust going forward.

I do hope he has a better grip on what true talent is and can make smarter decisions. he wont have the built in excuses anymore.

I think that's even-handed. If he can't build something now, how can he not be expected to take responsibility for the result? You will still always have some fans who feel it is harsh to judge anything or anyone at anytime and if Phil doesn't succeed there will be plenty of excuses. The ball is squarely in Phil's court. After Plan B, there won't be Plan C & D, just Planet F.

My projection is this does become a playoff team, but not a contender. That will be enough to shield Phil from the worst criticism and it will buy the support of the majority of fans who will settle for mediocrity.

Splat wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:Fisher's real clock won't start until next year IMO.

You are wrong, as always.

Fisher will get the full five years. As long as Jackson is here with the Knicks, then Fisher will be too.

There will likely be a lockout in the 2016/2017 season, who knows how long that will last. Franchises don't want to start whacking coaches during a lockout, they don't want that point of instability with an already complicated labor situation.

By the time anyone can really assess Fisher with a halfway decent roster, his contract will likely be up.

Nothing you just posted refutes my statement. I think Fish will be evaluated more seriously starting next season. I think that is both fair and reasonable.

I totally disagree with your premise that there won't be a halfway decent roster until his contract is likely finished. Why would it take nearly 5 years to put a decent team together?

Because this is the Knicks and
1) Dolan's an idiot to hire Phil at 60 million
2) Phil's an idiot to give Melo 124 million
3) Phils an idiot to give Fish 25 million
4) We will never have a decent team as long as that $124 million is on the books. Melo can't be on a team that wins 50 games. Oh, wait...
5) #4 emphasizes and highlights the stupidity of #1 through #3.
6) When in doubt, repost steps 1 through 5.
7) We just plain suck as a franchise.
8) It's been 40 years.

While most of that is actually true but hardly said, i do think there is a real concern as to Phil's talent evaluation. Phil actually believed the team he put together would be good enough for the playoffs. Thats a real concern going forward.

I don't think it says anything about what Phil will do going forward. The players we sent away are all pretty much playing well now. The problem may have been a combination of their lack of willingness to fully buy in and lack of fit for what we want to do. The thing is that Phil gave it a chance and once it was clear there would be no success with these players he pulled the plug. Now we're on a completely different path and I think it's folly to suggest that what happened at the start of this year is going to inform anything going forward.

Here's one of my reasons. We will have full control over the make up of the roster going forward which wasn't really the case at the start of the season. We were still dealing with a lot of players from the previous regime and it wasn't practical to change everyone out at the very start of the season before we gave it a chance to see how they'd respond. Phil tried to take a practical approach to this season. He now has to bring in more talent than he may have wanted to do initially. In the end I think it's a blessing in disguise. If the team had played better it may have prolonged the move to get rid of unreliable players. Phil now is nearly 100% free to bring in the right kind of players. Also this is a bit longer process now but that doesn't have to be a bad thing. Especially if it ends up with us landing a core player for the future.

That is the issue, Phil thought he had some of the right type this year, when he really didnt have much of anything. His evaluation is the concern and to be honest having a clean slate will highlight that fact going forward. If the team reaches some forms of success he will be credited for that, if it doesnt it will be squarely on him since he built it entirely. Keep in mind even Phil himself has admitted fault, so it's perfectly valid to reserve trust going forward.

I do hope he has a better grip on what true talent is and can make smarter decisions. he wont have the built in excuses anymore.

I think that's even-handed. If he can't build something now, how can he not be expected to take responsibility for the result? You will still always have some fans who feel it is harsh to judge anything or anyone at anytime and if Phil doesn't succeed there will be plenty of excuses. The ball is squarely in Phil's court. After Plan B, there won't be Plan C & D, just Planet F.

My projection is this does become a playoff team, but not a contender. That will be enough to shield Phil from the worst criticism and it will buy the support of the majority of fans who will settle for mediocrity.