holfresh wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:

holfresh wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:

holfresh wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/04/world/middleeast/netanyahu-congress-iran-israel-speech.html?ref=us&_r=0

Wow..What an insult to the President, the office of the Presidency and the people of the United States of America...
The balls of this guy and Boehner to pull this off on American soil, in the halls of Congress, where the President spoke just over a month ago..

Truly Shameful...

What really is shameful is your post. He was invited to speak here, He is a politician running for office and most importantly the issue about Iran getting nuclear weapons is something that can't be ignored. He did thank Obama and America for their support. Your wording does have anti-semitic tones.

BigRedDog doing his usual hit and run..Not much of intelligence to add, just here for the smear..This is a good topic to enlighten us your views..What part of what I said came across as being anti-Semitic, just the mere action of questioning Netanyahu's intent or being appalled at the speech??..

I'm lost as to what is meant by "he is a politician running for office and more importantly the issue about Iran getting nuclear weapons is something that can't be ignored"...Are you really not clued into whats happening or is it just sheer ignorance on your part, which by the way, still didn't give you pause before you replied to my post..Who is ignoring Iran's nuclear ambitions that you feel the need to point out it's being ignored??? And since when politicians around the world use our Congress, the very body in the same manner our President use to give the State of the Union address, to insult our President, for their own political gain at home, just ahead of their elections?

Holfresh, I don't know you , never had an interaction with you before but I obviously touched a nerve with you. Why don't you keep it on topic instead of attacking someone personally? Politics is not worth debating with crazy people. Do me a favor, join the list and put me on ignore

You are right, I don't know you..But you have interacted with me in similar fashion a few weeks ago...You did the same with some one else two/three days ago...Now you are wondering why I followed up your attacks with an attack of my own??..Like I said, I lost..

You are a F'in baby and you are right, you are lost

It is pretty sad that everyone seems to be losing and the push for piece is being shelved.

The religious right is quite powerful in israel as they are here. Many israelis detest the right ring extremist / religious ideology yet their hope for piece seems to be a pipe dream since most of the surrounding nations will never be aloud to accept israel as a jewish or even a partial jewish state.

I am somewhere in the middle and see the desperation and logic of both extremes. Religious wars are logic-less and endless.

Also, it seems to always come down to a race in procreation between the left and right and the right procreates much faster. The only thing that keeps them from overtaking the left is eventual religious persecution and ethnic cleansing.

One who does not have a stake in the game, will never get it.

mreinman wrote:Netanyahu is a hawk that is dealing with a deep struggle between the left and right in israel similar to what is going on with the dead split in america.

It is pretty sad that everyone seems to be losing and the push for piece is being shelved.

The religious right is quite powerful in israel as they are here. Many israelis detest the right ring extremist / religious ideology yet their hope for piece seems to be a pipe dream since most of the surrounding nations will never be aloud to accept israel as a jewish or even a partial jewish state.

I am somewhere in the middle and see the desperation and logic of both extremes. Religious wars are logic-less and endless.

Also, it seems to always come down to a race in procreation between the left and right and the right procreates much faster. The only thing that keeps them from overtaking the left is eventual religious persecution and ethnic cleansing.

One who does not have a stake in the game, will never get it.

With Israel is it deeper that just religion and racism.
This is a struggle between progress of human race and the forces who trying to drug us back into stone age.
How people cannot see it blinded by hatred accumulated for thousand years is beyond me.

mreinman wrote:Netanyahu is a hawk that is dealing with a deep struggle between the left and right in israel similar to what is going on with the dead split in america.

It is pretty sad that everyone seems to be losing and the push for piece is being shelved.

The religious right is quite powerful in israel as they are here. Many israelis detest the right ring extremist / religious ideology yet their hope for piece seems to be a pipe dream since most of the surrounding nations will never be aloud to accept israel as a jewish or even a partial jewish state.

I am somewhere in the middle and see the desperation and logic of both extremes. Religious wars are logic-less and endless.

Also, it seems to always come down to a race in procreation between the left and right and the right procreates much faster. The only thing that keeps them from overtaking the left is eventual religious persecution and ethnic cleansing.

One who does not have a stake in the game, will never get it.

I have always had ambivalence about Israel. I fully understand their need to protect themselves. I've been sad at what they've done to others too. They are very tough people. When you go there, the vibe is different than anywhere I've been. When traveling in other places, the Israelis carry that vibe with them. They became even more tribal as a result of their situation and they carry that clannishness with them when they travel in groups. If Iran or any country in the Middle East does get to the stage of serious military strikes of any magnitude inside Israel it will be disastrous as the Israelis will retaliate. It feels intractable. The only hope for Israel is outlasting generational meltdowns around their border and hoping new generations grow up with a different perspective towards Israel. That's a slim hope, but stamina may be the only strategy for survival.

Splat wrote:

mreinman wrote:Netanyahu is a hawk that is dealing with a deep struggle between the left and right in israel similar to what is going on with the dead split in america.

It is pretty sad that everyone seems to be losing and the push for piece is being shelved.

The religious right is quite powerful in israel as they are here. Many israelis detest the right ring extremist / religious ideology yet their hope for piece seems to be a pipe dream since most of the surrounding nations will never be aloud to accept israel as a jewish or even a partial jewish state.

I am somewhere in the middle and see the desperation and logic of both extremes. Religious wars are logic-less and endless.

Also, it seems to always come down to a race in procreation between the left and right and the right procreates much faster. The only thing that keeps them from overtaking the left is eventual religious persecution and ethnic cleansing.

One who does not have a stake in the game, will never get it.

I have always had ambivalence about Israel. I fully understand their need to protect themselves. I've been sad at what they've done to others too. They are very tough people. When you go there, the vibe is different than anywhere I've been. When traveling in other places, the Israelis carry that vibe with them. They became even more tribal as a result of their situation and they carry that clannishness with them when they travel in groups. If Iran or any country in the Middle East does get to the stage of serious military strikes of any magnitude inside Israel it will be disastrous as the Israelis will retaliate. It feels intractable. The only hope for Israel is outlasting generational meltdowns around their border and hoping new generations grow up with a different perspective towards Israel. That's a slim hope, but stamina may be the only strategy for survival.

Well said. Problem a group like Hammas is teaching them hate at a very early age.
Its not gonna happen. Arafat sold them out. They sell themselves out. Blame Israel for embargo's but don't blame the import of rockets for the cause.

Its an old story. A very scary one.

I always thought Iran could emerge as moderate.

Nalod wrote:

Splat wrote:

mreinman wrote:Netanyahu is a hawk that is dealing with a deep struggle between the left and right in israel similar to what is going on with the dead split in america.

It is pretty sad that everyone seems to be losing and the push for piece is being shelved.

The religious right is quite powerful in israel as they are here. Many israelis detest the right ring extremist / religious ideology yet their hope for piece seems to be a pipe dream since most of the surrounding nations will never be aloud to accept israel as a jewish or even a partial jewish state.

I am somewhere in the middle and see the desperation and logic of both extremes. Religious wars are logic-less and endless.

Also, it seems to always come down to a race in procreation between the left and right and the right procreates much faster. The only thing that keeps them from overtaking the left is eventual religious persecution and ethnic cleansing.

One who does not have a stake in the game, will never get it.

I have always had ambivalence about Israel. I fully understand their need to protect themselves. I've been sad at what they've done to others too. They are very tough people. When you go there, the vibe is different than anywhere I've been. When traveling in other places, the Israelis carry that vibe with them. They became even more tribal as a result of their situation and they carry that clannishness with them when they travel in groups. If Iran or any country in the Middle East does get to the stage of serious military strikes of any magnitude inside Israel it will be disastrous as the Israelis will retaliate. It feels intractable. The only hope for Israel is outlasting generational meltdowns around their border and hoping new generations grow up with a different perspective towards Israel. That's a slim hope, but stamina may be the only strategy for survival.

Well said. Problem a group like Hammas is teaching them hate at a very early age.
Its not gonna happen. Arafat sold them out. They sell themselves out. Blame Israel for embargo's but don't blame the import of rockets for the cause.

Its an old story. A very scary one.

I always thought Iran could emerge as moderate.

Yeah, I'm not terribly confident, but I do see how sometimes predictions that seem foreordained do get pushed in a new direction by unforeseen circumstances. Technology is obviously a key factor, but its effects are still unpredictable. The Arab Spring was facilitated by Twitter, but social media has also facilitated recruitment of middle class teens into Isis.

A key hot point underway is China's blocking of VPNs, thus cutting off their population to many aspects of the internet. The Chinese leadership likes to plan 100 years ahead, but they will probably lose their grip at some point. Communication rights may end up being one of the primary rallying points for mass populations. In the U.S., internet users shot down net regulations when few thought it was possible, but it happened.

Because access to the internet with cheap phones is not likely to stop, even many of the poorest will become connected. Who knows what consensus reality that will form around these influences. I don't think anyone knows for sure.

Also, other technologies could alter food and energy production is such significant ways that it could help the improverished more quickly and reverse generations of deprivation in less than a decade. That could plus access to secular knowledge could change core attitudes in populations that are currently breeding grounds for terrorists. The NY Times had an article that said terror alerts in West Africa creates more terrorism because it scares off tourist money and drives people deeper into poverty. These are network effects. Change the network of factors and sometimes whole regions can undergo positive change more quickly than previously imagined. That is the power of technology. It can bring improvements to health and economy. And that is what will be needed.

arkrud wrote:

Splat wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Splat wrote:

mreinman wrote:Netanyahu is a hawk that is dealing with a deep struggle between the left and right in israel similar to what is going on with the dead split in america.

It is pretty sad that everyone seems to be losing and the push for piece is being shelved.

The religious right is quite powerful in israel as they are here. Many israelis detest the right ring extremist / religious ideology yet their hope for piece seems to be a pipe dream since most of the surrounding nations will never be aloud to accept israel as a jewish or even a partial jewish state.

I am somewhere in the middle and see the desperation and logic of both extremes. Religious wars are logic-less and endless.

Also, it seems to always come down to a race in procreation between the left and right and the right procreates much faster. The only thing that keeps them from overtaking the left is eventual religious persecution and ethnic cleansing.

One who does not have a stake in the game, will never get it.

I have always had ambivalence about Israel. I fully understand their need to protect themselves. I've been sad at what they've done to others too. They are very tough people. When you go there, the vibe is different than anywhere I've been. When traveling in other places, the Israelis carry that vibe with them. They became even more tribal as a result of their situation and they carry that clannishness with them when they travel in groups. If Iran or any country in the Middle East does get to the stage of serious military strikes of any magnitude inside Israel it will be disastrous as the Israelis will retaliate. It feels intractable. The only hope for Israel is outlasting generational meltdowns around their border and hoping new generations grow up with a different perspective towards Israel. That's a slim hope, but stamina may be the only strategy for survival.

Well said. Problem a group like Hammas is teaching them hate at a very early age.
Its not gonna happen. Arafat sold them out. They sell themselves out. Blame Israel for embargo's but don't blame the import of rockets for the cause.

Its an old story. A very scary one.

I always thought Iran could emerge as moderate.

Yeah, I'm not terribly confident, but I do see how sometimes predictions that seem foreordained do get pushed in a new direction by unforeseen circumstances. Technology is obviously a key factor, but its effects are still unpredictable. The Arab Spring was facilitated by Twitter, but social media has also facilitated recruitment of middle class teens into Isis.

A key hot point underway is China's blocking of VPNs, thus cutting off their population to many aspects of the internet. The Chinese leadership likes to plan 100 years ahead, but they will probably lose their grip at some point. Communication rights may end up being one of the primary rallying points for mass populations. In the U.S., internet users shot down net regulations when few thought it was possible, but it happened.

Because access to the internet with cheap phones is not likely to stop, even many of the poorest will become connected. Who knows what consensus reality that will form around these influences. I don't think anyone knows for sure.

Also, other technologies could alter food and energy production is such significant ways that it could help the improverished more quickly and reverse generations of deprivation in less than a decade. That could plus access to secular knowledge could change core attitudes in populations that are currently breeding grounds for terrorists. The NY Times had an article that said terror alerts in West Africa creates more terrorism because it scares off tourist money and drives people deeper into poverty. These are network effects. Change the network of factors and sometimes whole regions can undergo positive change more quickly than previously imagined. That is the power of technology. It can bring improvements to health and economy. And that is what will be needed.

Food will never be a problem. Earth can feed 100 billions with easy if we will not destroy this ability.
Entertainment is also plenty including accessible Internet.
But food and entertainment are not wealth. Romans had plenty of both and then the Roman civilization failed and world of wildness emerged.
Wealth is knowledge, education, science, technology, arts, and divinity.
This what billions of people are deprived off. And this people and not only in Sudan or Afghanistan.
Some are our neighbors.
This wealth it at stake with Israel.
People who collected wealth for all human race are facing prospect of extinction again.
History always repeat itself.

Yes, I understand your point of view and your definition of wealth is valid to me too. But even knowing that history repeats itself, I've also become less certain of many things. I may be certain Dolan is a disaster and the Knicks will not be contenders while he's the boss, but that is small potatoes and takes little common sense to know. I used to be inclined towards believing social collapse is inevitable, but now I do try to see what is possible. People are always certain the end is near, but being a prepper is not my answer to living through whatever comes next. I guess I'm hopeful still, but I recognize the dangers regardless.

The essential thing I'd highlight from what you said is we can feed everyone. You're right. But we don't. It is a commonplace observation that you can't talk about art to a starving man. NGOs seem to have replaced governments as facilitators of basic needs and simple economic empowerment. Some of the super wealthy help. Many of them buy 100 foot yachts instead.

arkrud wrote:

Splat wrote:

arkrud wrote:

Splat wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Splat wrote:

mreinman wrote:Netanyahu is a hawk that is dealing with a deep struggle between the left and right in israel similar to what is going on with the dead split in america.

It is pretty sad that everyone seems to be losing and the push for piece is being shelved.

The religious right is quite powerful in israel as they are here. Many israelis detest the right ring extremist / religious ideology yet their hope for piece seems to be a pipe dream since most of the surrounding nations will never be aloud to accept israel as a jewish or even a partial jewish state.

I am somewhere in the middle and see the desperation and logic of both extremes. Religious wars are logic-less and endless.

Also, it seems to always come down to a race in procreation between the left and right and the right procreates much faster. The only thing that keeps them from overtaking the left is eventual religious persecution and ethnic cleansing.

One who does not have a stake in the game, will never get it.

I have always had ambivalence about Israel. I fully understand their need to protect themselves. I've been sad at what they've done to others too. They are very tough people. When you go there, the vibe is different than anywhere I've been. When traveling in other places, the Israelis carry that vibe with them. They became even more tribal as a result of their situation and they carry that clannishness with them when they travel in groups. If Iran or any country in the Middle East does get to the stage of serious military strikes of any magnitude inside Israel it will be disastrous as the Israelis will retaliate. It feels intractable. The only hope for Israel is outlasting generational meltdowns around their border and hoping new generations grow up with a different perspective towards Israel. That's a slim hope, but stamina may be the only strategy for survival.

Well said. Problem a group like Hammas is teaching them hate at a very early age.
Its not gonna happen. Arafat sold them out. They sell themselves out. Blame Israel for embargo's but don't blame the import of rockets for the cause.

Its an old story. A very scary one.

I always thought Iran could emerge as moderate.

Yeah, I'm not terribly confident, but I do see how sometimes predictions that seem foreordained do get pushed in a new direction by unforeseen circumstances. Technology is obviously a key factor, but its effects are still unpredictable. The Arab Spring was facilitated by Twitter, but social media has also facilitated recruitment of middle class teens into Isis.

A key hot point underway is China's blocking of VPNs, thus cutting off their population to many aspects of the internet. The Chinese leadership likes to plan 100 years ahead, but they will probably lose their grip at some point. Communication rights may end up being one of the primary rallying points for mass populations. In the U.S., internet users shot down net regulations when few thought it was possible, but it happened.

Because access to the internet with cheap phones is not likely to stop, even many of the poorest will become connected. Who knows what consensus reality that will form around these influences. I don't think anyone knows for sure.

Also, other technologies could alter food and energy production is such significant ways that it could help the improverished more quickly and reverse generations of deprivation in less than a decade. That could plus access to secular knowledge could change core attitudes in populations that are currently breeding grounds for terrorists. The NY Times had an article that said terror alerts in West Africa creates more terrorism because it scares off tourist money and drives people deeper into poverty. These are network effects. Change the network of factors and sometimes whole regions can undergo positive change more quickly than previously imagined. That is the power of technology. It can bring improvements to health and economy. And that is what will be needed.

Food will never be a problem. Earth can feed 100 billions with easy if we will not destroy this ability.
Entertainment is also plenty including accessible Internet.
But food and entertainment are not wealth. Romans had plenty of both and then the Roman civilization failed and world of wildness emerged.
Wealth is knowledge, education, science, technology, arts, and divinity.
This what billions of people are deprived off. And this people and not only in Sudan or Afghanistan.
Some are our neighbors.
This wealth it at stake with Israel.
People who collected wealth for all human race are facing prospect of extinction again.
History always repeat itself.

Yes, I understand your point of view and your definition of wealth is valid to me too. But even knowing that history repeats itself, I've also become less certain of many things. I may be certain Dolan is a disaster and the Knicks will not be contenders while he's the boss, but that is small potatoes and takes little common sense to know. I used to be inclined towards believing social collapse is inevitable, but now I do try to see what is possible. People are always certain the end is near, but being a prepper is not my answer to living through whatever comes next. I guess I'm hopeful still, but I recognize the dangers regardless.

The essential thing I'd highlight from what you said is we can feed everyone. You're right. But we don't. It is a commonplace observation that you can't talk about art to a starving man. NGOs seem to have replaced governments as facilitators of basic needs and simple economic empowerment. Some of the super wealthy help. Many of them buy 100 foot yachts instead.

Administratively breaking and distributing the wealth is not helping.
This was tested over and over again and failed more spectacularly with every try.
All it gives is one day relief and lifetime corruption.
People should be given an opportunity to earn the living.
Rom made all citizens into beggars by using slave labor.
Then no one left standing.
Societies need jobs not entitlements.
I don't mind 100 foot yachts if man created 100K jobs.
It is better that government feeding 100K more unemployed.

Well, that's what I meant. You need to give people opportunity and support that. There have been successes in building sustainable farming for communities or micro-banking funding small businesses. There are successes. And I'm not anti-capitalist. I don't mind people becoming rich. But I do feel there is little initiative from government compared to some philanthropists who do make some impact. Even some very sketchy people have made a difference. Clinton may be a hustler, but he did use his influence to get AIDS drugs to many Africans. Thousands of lives were saved. I do think some tech entrepreneurs will make a big difference and I do think a few of them care a great deal.

Sometimes a few people do make a disproportionate difference. It is excruciating and complicated though. The Gates Foundation can only do so much. Relief efforts often are fukked up. Haiti is in worse shape now than before the earthquake partly because of all of the uncompleted projects that were abandoned after people got tired of it and left. Clean water is still a big problem there. Fixing the world is not everybody's calling in life.

Splat wrote:

mreinman wrote:Netanyahu is a hawk that is dealing with a deep struggle between the left and right in israel similar to what is going on with the dead split in america.

It is pretty sad that everyone seems to be losing and the push for piece is being shelved.

The religious right is quite powerful in israel as they are here. Many israelis detest the right ring extremist / religious ideology yet their hope for piece seems to be a pipe dream since most of the surrounding nations will never be aloud to accept israel as a jewish or even a partial jewish state.

I am somewhere in the middle and see the desperation and logic of both extremes. Religious wars are logic-less and endless.

Also, it seems to always come down to a race in procreation between the left and right and the right procreates much faster. The only thing that keeps them from overtaking the left is eventual religious persecution and ethnic cleansing.

One who does not have a stake in the game, will never get it.

I have always had ambivalence about Israel. I fully understand their need to protect themselves. I've been sad at what they've done to others too. They are very tough people. When you go there, the vibe is different than anywhere I've been. When traveling in other places, the Israelis carry that vibe with them. They became even more tribal as a result of their situation and they carry that clannishness with them when they travel in groups. If Iran or any country in the Middle East does get to the stage of serious military strikes of any magnitude inside Israel it will be disastrous as the Israelis will retaliate. It feels intractable. The only hope for Israel is outlasting generational meltdowns around their border and hoping new generations grow up with a different perspective towards Israel. That's a slim hope, but stamina may be the only strategy for survival.

Stamina's a pretty poor defense against ballistic missiles with nuclear payload. Bibi's pretty clear that the sanctions are fairly useless, UN oversight of Iran's nuclear program is near pointless. His speech is centered around the idea that Israel is not going to sit back and wait for peaceful regime change and generational maturity to happen in response to diplomacy, concessions and more talking.

He's not waiting for the time when Israel has to retailiate, because if Iran or any other country strikes with nukes, there's not going to be much of a need for retailiation. The effing country's smaller than NJ. How many strikes do you honestly think they can absorb of that magnitude and then retailiate? His speech, beyond the supposed insults to our great anti-Bush POTUS, was more of an advanced notice that Israel is going to act to stop Iran from developing nukes. With or without US help.

Your only hope is their worst nightmare.

Splat wrote:Iran is a weird place. Full of many literate and cosmopolitan people, particularly the younger generations, who want to be part of the global exchange of culture and ideas. Yet the political system there remains thwarted by religious fanatics.

Iran's urban population has such great potential to be a positive part of a sane world, more so than many parts of the Middle East. I hope their leadership continues to evolve away from the fundamentalists.

You ever see pictures of Tehran pre-revolution? Ladies have their hair out, miniskirts, the whole nine. It's a big, modern place with jerks running it. We have a lot in common.

http://www.parstimes.com/fashion/pre_revolution/

Nalod got up, kicked over the desk an rushed "John" into the lockers. Very dramatic, we both got a few good punchs in and it ended quickly as a draw. Our parents came up and it all got sortedout.
I got suspended and john didn't. Thats what happens when you pre-empt a strike. it looks like your agreeser but in fact your not waiting. You do it on conditions that suit you.

IN the John got accused by others and he respected me. We became better friends. We had an undrstanding that we would never pay for weed and in the long run it was cool.

Isreal will always look bad becuase its not gonna wait to garner the sympathy as a victim. They won't wait until Hammas finishe its tunnels and then starts killing its children. Don't freaking build tunnels.
And it won't wait until Iran who has sworn its distruction and funds and advises Hezbollah and Hammas to finish a bomb. As much as I want Obama to get a good deal I like the rest of the world hold my breath. GOP does not want Obama to get credit or a nobel prize.

Those who are sympathic to the human plight of the the refugees stuck in Gaza and the West Bank must understand the lack of leadership and the influx of corruption not by Israel, but from within have kept them from obtaining a good deal. Many have been offered and rejected. Billions from aid squandered by leadership. Its sad. Bottom line is you can't make peace with someone who does not. How do you deal with a group willing to sacrifice its children?