Splat wrote:
Nooo. I'm saying there is a whole lot of cognitive dissonance occurring in the Knicks fan base right now where people expect to land a star in this draft + land significant free agents and this is will gel with Melo and other stray pick-ups into something competitive.

I fail to see the conflict. Where is the contradiction?

Splat wrote:Tanking now is really the only option and even if Phil has mostly eff'd things up so far, as least he showed a modicum of common sense and said it's on me and basically conceded they are now tanking.

Can we concede that Jackson recognized that this core of players did not understand the triangle and could not operate in his system? No one says that JR Smith is a bad player, but it is clear his basketball IQ is lacking. The tank has been on for a while.

Splat wrote:But it is not a rebuild. That's what I said. It's the same old disorganized scrambling and band-aid BS approach this organization has always had. Phil was a spineless toad when he puffed up his chest about not overpaying Melo and then caved like a wimp and overpaid a really ineffectual player whose sole attribute is volume scoring.

Define a rebuild. How many core pieces can you retain and still rebuild. Did you witness the negotiations between Jackson and Leon Rose? How would you react if he allowed Melo to walk and got nothing in return? The mistake for me is not the signing, its the no trade clause. And Melo's secondary asset is shooting in the clutch. He is your finisher. Do not undervalue that.

Splat wrote:Giving a player whose career has already peaked the top salary in the league is not rebuilding my friend. It's Dolan redux.

Are you contesting Melo is a max player? Most of us don't contend he is a max player. We contend that in this league where players team up to win championships, if you want to win you have to take less so the team can afford more stars. As Phil said, the standard has been set by Lebron. He never said he wouldn't pay him, he said he should give a hometown discount if he wants to win.

Splat wrote:Plus a rebuild doesn't center itself around a 30 year old with a dozen years of wear and tear who has led the league in minutes.

Says who? Do you not count 1996 as a "rebuild" where we brought in Houston and Childs from free agency, traded Mason for Johnson and made Jeff Van Gundy head coach? What was that? I would say that was centered around a 34 year old Ewing with lots of minutes on those knees. Are you talking from fact or from feeling? Or you assuming a "rebuild" must happen through some very limited rules that you have not yet identified?

Splat wrote:I said from the very beginning Melo would break down. Here we are. We're breaking down already and people want to call it a rebuild?

All players break down, eventually. I call it a rebuild because our roster has 1 starter from this year that will be here next year. We are turning over the roster and building around Melo. Did you predict Durant would 'break down' too? Would you not sign him? Yes, I would prefer to rebuild around Lebron. Or Steph Curry even.

You don't forfeit your rook simply because it isn't a queen. You put the pieces in place around that rook to get checkmate anyway (knowing its limited abilities). Place your knight and bishop and hope your pawn makes it to be a queen. Seems like a good metaphor to me.

Splat wrote:Jackson is not the master of this situation, so the hook in the storyline some are still biting on like sucker fish about Phil having a plan is a laugh riot. Jackson showed his hand early on he's all bluster and little sense and Dolan remains his master.

If you don't have the players to fit your proven model of how to win 11 championships, do you change your players or your proven plan? Jackson has 11 rings. That's more than Bill Russell and every other person on the planet. I'm not saying that's the end of discussion, but it does make me give the guy some faith. Lets change the players and see what happens. I won't promise a chip, but I am accepting of this plan.

StarksEwing1 wrote:

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:JSmith, Galloway and Early might be guys that can be bench players. Acy too. I can't believe I am saying this but Bargnani might actually be able to play in this system.

Hardaway Jr is an asset that may get us something of value back.

There is cap space and a pick, Melo and the guy running the franchise has 11 rings!!

As much as i am a fan of Phil there is a difference getting 11 rings as a coach(with 3 of the best players in our generation) and winning as a executive. Not saying he cant do it but i need to see it first

This is a positive only thread.

I didnt say anything negative man. But hey i'll play along. next year we will go 82-0 in the regular season 16-0 in the playoffs. Melo(the greatest player on earth) will win his long deserved MVP and Phil will be executive of the year. That better

It's all good but you dared to question the magic of PJax as a GM. (You are right of course!)

I am hopeful that he knows what he is doing. I think he is more likely to be a good GM than bad based on his 11 rings.

I would think he had some input in the past.

I should have addded a , to my initial post.

EwingsGlass wrote:

Splat wrote:
Nooo. I'm saying there is a whole lot of cognitive dissonance occurring in the Knicks fan base right now where people expect to land a star in this draft + land significant free agents and this is will gel with Melo and other stray pick-ups into something competitive.

I fail to see the conflict. Where is the contradiction?

Splat wrote:Tanking now is really the only option and even if Phil has mostly eff'd things up so far, as least he showed a modicum of common sense and said it's on me and basically conceded they are now tanking.

Can we concede that Jackson recognized that this core of players did not understand the triangle and could not operate in his system? No one says that JR Smith is a bad player, but it is clear his basketball IQ is lacking. The tank has been on for a while.

Splat wrote:But it is not a rebuild. That's what I said. It's the same old disorganized scrambling and band-aid BS approach this organization has always had. Phil was a spineless toad when he puffed up his chest about not overpaying Melo and then caved like a wimp and overpaid a really ineffectual player whose sole attribute is volume scoring.

Define a rebuild. How many core pieces can you retain and still rebuild. Did you witness the negotiations between Jackson and Leon Rose? How would you react if he allowed Melo to walk and got nothing in return? The mistake for me is not the signing, its the no trade clause. And Melo's secondary asset is shooting in the clutch. He is your finisher. Do not undervalue that.

Splat wrote:Giving a player whose career has already peaked the top salary in the league is not rebuilding my friend. It's Dolan redux.

Are you contesting Melo is a max player? Most of us don't contend he is a max player. We contend that in this league where players team up to win championships, if you want to win you have to take less so the team can afford more stars. As Phil said, the standard has been set by Lebron. He never said he wouldn't pay him, he said he should give a hometown discount if he wants to win.

Splat wrote:Plus a rebuild doesn't center itself around a 30 year old with a dozen years of wear and tear who has led the league in minutes.

Says who? Do you not count 1996 as a "rebuild" where we brought in Houston and Childs from free agency, traded Mason for Johnson and made Jeff Van Gundy head coach? What was that? I would say that was centered around a 34 year old Ewing with lots of minutes on those knees. Are you talking from fact or from feeling? Or you assuming a "rebuild" must happen through some very limited rules that you have not yet identified?

Splat wrote:I said from the very beginning Melo would break down. Here we are. We're breaking down already and people want to call it a rebuild?

All players break down, eventually. I call it a rebuild because our roster has 1 starter from this year that will be here next year. We are turning over the roster and building around Melo. Did you predict Durant would 'break down' too? Would you not sign him? Yes, I would prefer to rebuild around Lebron. Or Steph Curry even.

You don't forfeit your rook simply because it isn't a queen. You put the pieces in place around that rook to get checkmate anyway (knowing its limited abilities). Place your knight and bishop and hope your pawn makes it to be a queen. Seems like a good metaphor to me.

Splat wrote:Jackson is not the master of this situation, so the hook in the storyline some are still biting on like sucker fish about Phil having a plan is a laugh riot. Jackson showed his hand early on he's all bluster and little sense and Dolan remains his master.

If you don't have the players to fit your proven model of how to win 11 championships, do you change your players or your proven plan? Jackson has 11 rings. That's more than Bill Russell and every other person on the planet. I'm not saying that's the end of discussion, but it does make me give the guy some faith. Lets change the players and see what happens. I won't promise a chip, but I am accepting of this plan.

+1 cogent responses, although you are possibly going to get the normal acid reflux thrown in your face for daring to even compare a 34-year old Ewing to a 30-year old Melo.

It's continually amazing that people can point out that they've suffered through 15 years of non-rebuilding BS but can't give this experiment more than 3/4's of a season before abandoning the franchise. Once Bargs is gone, there will be nothing left but Melo. Apparently rebuild is code for "Get rid of that douche one-dimensional scorer, or get him to give back 100 million and the no trade clause"

while there has been a glimmer of hope shown for Briggs, you EwingGlass, are presumably without hope. I'm guessing Splat has you on superadminuserIgnore without so much as even informing you.

good work.

blkexec wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:

blkexec wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Splat wrote:

Stevo718 wrote:How's this for optimism?

Draft Russell... Sign Marc Gasol... Then sign Durant.

Gasol
Durant
Melo
??? (THJ)
Russell

Least likely line-up possible.

Gasol isn't coming.

And the idea of putting Durant next to Melo makes zero sense. Durant is better, but they do not complement each other at all unless Melo becomes the 6th man.

Shouldn't this post be in the 'we suck thread'?

Yep....its the newbie.....hes trying to feel his way around.....I remember those days when i attacked Briggs for being so negative Lol. Its called growing pains.

Its not a "newbie" its called an ahole

I was trying to be polite.

I remember blasting BRIGGs immediately after the Eddy Curry trade because he was worrying about the picks being unprotected, which I thought was irrelevant at the time because we were bound for greatness! I am sorry BRIGGs!

smackeddog wrote:For all the misery this season on these boards, in Knick games, in the media, I do honestly believe we're in a good place. Cap space and a lottery pick. I'm under no delusions that it's going to be easy this offseason- if truth be told this is the most difficult offseason we've had, in terms of having to get everything exactly right with very little margin for error. Could go horribly wrong, but I'm excited about it. I'm enjoying finding out a bit more about the top draft prospects, it makes a fun change. I also like having cap space and swapping ideas about what players we should sign sign (since we've only had cap space about once in the past 20yrs, its a novelty!)

My main concern is the lack of a 2016 pick- if we hadn't traded it away (twice!), they're would be more options and less pressure on us for this offseason. But overall, I feel fine (unlike last seasons misery).

2016 pick is a concern, however maybe phil sees that lost pick as a sunk cost or better some how gets a replacement pick (dunno how). im hoping he doenst go for the home run(s) this off season as that could paint him into a corner if things dont go well.

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Splat wrote:If there was ever a real plan to rebuild, the agenda would have been to tell Melo you get $16M a year from us or you can go elsewhere. Then he'd get to choose us or Chicago at roughly the same rate.

Then you'd have a player you could still possibly trade if you need to. But you're stuck with Melo now.

AND WE GAVE HIM A NO-TRADE CLAUSE. Phil is in charge? BS

If there had been a real rebuild plan in mind, then sign and trade deals to get assets for Melo would have been explored or we'd have held firm at a much lower salary.

But what Melo got was not a rebuild move. Not even close.

No amount of tap dancing can call this a rebuild now.

I think Phil did urge Melo to take a paycut publicly. However lets face it dolan pretty much made the melo decision so Phil had no leverage.

nixluva wrote:Here's the thing about this current roster. These guys are the bench players for next year. They aren't supposed to be able to carry an entire game. We don't have enough Starting Quality players at this moment. On a good team you have at least 6 players who are of starting quality and they are playing starter minutes. This means your bench guys are filling in. On a normal rotation you're talking about about 9 players. So if 6 of your players are starting caliber the other 3 simply have to hold the fort and not give up leads your starters create. This is why the team is as bad as it is. Players are being asked to do more than they realistically can.

The good thing is that we have a lot of developing players who still have upside, which seems to be lost on some people. We can let them play extended minutes the rest of the season. Come this summer we hope the draft goes well and from there we can hit Free Agency looking for 2-3 starting quality players who can help carry the load playing starter minutes.

please tell me for god sake, what are the good habits that they are developing????

newyorker4ever wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Splat wrote:If there was ever a real plan to rebuild, the agenda would have been to tell Melo you get $16M a year from us or you can go elsewhere. Then he'd get to choose us or Chicago at roughly the same rate.

Then you'd have a player you could still possibly trade if you need to. But you're stuck with Melo now.

AND WE GAVE HIM A NO-TRADE CLAUSE. Phil is in charge? BS

If there had been a real rebuild plan in mind, then sign and trade deals to get assets for Melo would have been explored or we'd have held firm at a much lower salary.

But what Melo got was not a rebuild move. Not even close.

No amount of tap dancing can call this a rebuild now.

I think Phil did urge Melo to take a paycut publicly. However lets face it dolan pretty much made the melo decision so Phil had no leverage.

Do you guys realize that if we didn't make the trade for Melo we would of ended up with Deron Williams?? Utah sat back and waited for Melo to get traded to either us or Brooklyn and then offered up Williams to the Nets as soon as we got Melo and if we didn't get Melo i'll bet you we would of gotten Wiiliams and i'd rather have Melo over Williams any day of the week.

Nice try, but you do realize you have people on this board who are prepared to spend paragraphs explaining to you how an injured Gallo or a deranged Marbury are better options over Melo, right?

I can't wait to see how they spin Dwill's magnificent numbers against our one-armed, broken down, volume scorer.