dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:Its a crap plan and it wont work out. There is a reason you strive to get better ever year. There is a reason you try to build something.

Its fun for the draft junkies but losing breeds more losing and drafting in sheer volume doesnt guarentee anything.

for example.. lets say your an elite franchise with multiple titles over recent years. Established and successful ownership and FO team. You start your rebuilding with a 5 year stretch of multiple high quality draft picks. I mean its a given your going to come out with some star players to build around right? Something like this:
Year 1: Pick 1 - Elton Brand
Year 2: Picks 2,8 - Marcus Fizer, Jamal Crawford
Year 3: Picks 2,4 - Tyson Chandler, Eddie Curry
Year 4: Pick 2 - Jay Williams
Year 5: Pick 7 - Kirk Heinrich

So... 5 years into it? 5 years of utterly dreadful basketball.

Whats even more telling about this stupid approach is when the Bulls started to get better and goto the playoffs. What turned that around? A group of players the EXACT OPPOSITE of must have stars approach. It was Duhon becoming the starting PG. It was a 25 year old rookie in Nocioni. To be fair Ben Gordon was high caliber talent and had a good rookie season. But the big impact player was Deng, who is your highly talented glue guy. Guys like Battier, Iguodalla, Tony Allen, Deng, back injured LJ was that guy for the Knicks... not sexy guys but high caliber low stat high impact guys.

Moving along the Bulls saw some good talent come and go. The have been well coached and thats been documented. Half this board wanks on Thibs team stats. All that and the Bulls reached the conf finals ONCE. Did I mention they added a #1 pick PG MVP along the way?

I mean you can do everything right and it still just doesnt work for one reason or another. And I mention the Bulls because they tend to keep the good talent and let the lesser go. Butler, Noah, Rose, Gibson... the keepers. Ben Gordon, Boozer, Hinrick.. the gonners. The continue to get it right.

Im not looking to use the Bulls as an example for failure. I mean start of every year they could be in the finals. I think all would agree here the Bulls have an envious roster and are well coached. Despite not winning I believe they are a model of success, and not unlike the Spurs model. Build around a core of quality. Spurs. Bulls. BUILD.

And I can tell you very simply and very easily why this guy is an absolute joke and will utterly and quickly fail.

Michael Carter Williams.

This will be probably not the first but the early and shining moment of this idiots total failure and mockery of what team sports is all about.

My god. A 6'6 PG putting up 15/7/6 in his rookie year. Yea his shooting stinks but the guy oozes talent, clearly has game and IS A 6'6 PG. Its like trading Penny Hardaway for three first rounders. No matter what your opiion of MCW you cant honestly say you can project his upside or downside at this time. He really could be another Penny type player. Maybe not. My point is simple... there is NO WAY to know after 50 NBA games. Certainly not in the environment they have created.

This guy is a joke.

Want to know whats NO JOKE? Michael Carter Williams starting his new career under Jason Kidd. Yikes.

Wake up dude... this GM is a joke. He's not qualified or capable of buiding anything. He's got an algorithm he plugs into his playstation. These are men. I watching this experiment fail with great interest because there is talent there easy to plunder.

everyone is so up in arms about MCW but they actually flipped him while he still had high value and they got back a potentially very high pick.

MCW is extremely talented but his shooting is not just bad, its beyond bad. Its brutal. He would need to average 15 assists per game to make up for his torrid shooting.

People who ignore metrics and just look at PPG will of course ignore this as well.

Who do you think is in a better position right now? Us or Philly? Is it even close?

The MCW was a trade that we would never make and that's why we suck. We don't make the right trades and the right time.

This pick that they got for MCW is top 5 protected but how about if they use it to select Stanley Johnson??

according to the numbers i have looked at he is a liability on offense but not a bad defender. if he can't shoot the ball, it may take quite a while to develop a jumper. yet his numbers indicate that he is not bad at sharing the ball if not an outright orchestrator. shooting can develop over a long time, orchestrating not so much. so if the trade is merited perhaps there's a timeline variable in there too.

if you look at espn rpm he is ranked 264th among nba players. that may well be what hinkie is looking at as well.

I do think he has a good plan but people are overblowing what he's doing on both sides... it's not earth shattering and has been done before many times over although not quite to this extreme....

what he deserves kudos on is executing that vision as he's very committed to it as he's shown... he's gotten a hoard of picks from the leftovers of an 8-seed team in the east... that was after giving up a future pick also...

Knixkik wrote:

fishmike wrote:Knicks have no plan. A decade of giving assets for garbage equals and empty cubbord. The hope is Phil builds something and passes it along to someone he mentors and Dolan stays out of the picture on a permanent basis. Fisher becomes the next Vangundy and puts out a solid 8 year stretch of good coaching. Phil fills the roster with multi skilled long wingspan role players around a few higher impact guys we were lucky enough to grab in that 2015 draft and sign that year in FA. I mean thats the hope. Thats the koolaid. I think of a $60mm expectation is that. Then something like the Bulls success. Maybe we get bounced in the first round a few times but we still made the 2nd once and the ECF once.... build the base, bring in guys who can thrive in a system... I mean there is a point to all this. Do you think because Melo is here its a quick fix? He may be nothing more than a stop gap. He's Bernard... fun player, sick scorer! But its Ewing we are looking to add this year.

Do you dig?

Agreed, in order to have a successful rebuild, this draft pick has to be a homerun. Melo is great to have for now, i'm glad we have him. We were able to keep him, have a bad season to allow us to draft a cornerstone on the year we actually have a pick and a solid group of incoming prospects, and cap space to become a good playoff team again. I am just as happy getting back into the playoffs with Melo and guys we sign this season, probably not winning a title but being competitive, while hopefully watching our draft pick bloom into the next great player for this franchise. The next Ewing. The goal is to win a title, but we need to get back into the playoffs first.

yellowboy90 wrote:Yeah that just sound like a lot of fluff.

+1 - He has shown no plan or direction yet and allowed for zero player development. I'm starting to think the guy is a fraud and just using this for job security. He acquires picks are considered assets and have increased value in the eyes of many these days. However he doesn't appear to be using them or planning to with any real vision. The way he has conducted his operation and his responses to questions are similar to corposcorporate fraudsters and people who run ponzi schemes. After this draft if he continues shows no vision they really need to consider looking in a different direction.

SwishAndDish13 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Yeah that just sound like a lot of fluff.

+1 - He has shown no plan or direction yet and allowed for zero player development. I'm starting to think the guy is a fraud and just using this for job security. He acquires picks are considered assets and have increased value in the eyes of many these days. However he doesn't appear to be using them or planning to with any real vision. The way he has conducted his operation and his responses to questions are similar to corposcorporate fraudsters and people who run ponzi schemes. After this draft if he continues shows no vision they really need to consider looking in a different direction.

Yup, this is all right. Only thing he has sold is his ability to get great job security. Good for him. Not good for philly.

TPercy wrote:It would be dreadfully painful for the fans to watch tho, who the hell would pay any money to see their team lose night after night after night and their basketball isn't that exciting.

TPercy wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

TPercy wrote:It would be dreadfully painful for the fans to watch tho, who the hell would pay any money to see their team lose night after night after night and their basketball isn't that exciting.

pretty much the same situation for us in terms of losses

ya but philly been doing this 4 a while at least we mke the playoffs every now and then

nixluva wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

TPercy wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

TPercy wrote:It would be dreadfully painful for the fans to watch tho, who the hell would pay any money to see their team lose night after night after night and their basketball isn't that exciting.

pretty much the same situation for us in terms of losses

ya but philly been doing this 4 a while at least we mke the playoffs every now and then

we have made the playoffs like 4 times the past 15 years. Its ok to be critical of the Knicks, god knows we deserve it lol

We need to stop living in the past. Lets embrace the new regime and upcoming Draft and Free Agency. If you can't get into the fact that this team will have a draft pick that matters and money to go after FA's this summer then you just don't have any sense of the rarity of those facts. We actually have a direction to the franchise for a change and it's from top to bottom one vision. We haven't had that since the last Finals team.

CrushAlot wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

TPercy wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

TPercy wrote:It would be dreadfully painful for the fans to watch tho, who the hell would pay any money to see their team lose night after night after night and their basketball isn't that exciting.

pretty much the same situation for us in terms of losses

ya but philly been doing this 4 a while at least we mke the playoffs every now and then

we have made the playoffs like 4 times the past 15 years. Its ok to be critical of the Knicks, god knows we deserve it lol

We need to stop living in the past. Lets embrace the new regime and upcoming Draft and Free Agency. If you can't get into the fact that this team will have a draft pick that matters and money to go after FA's this summer then you just don't have any sense of the rarity of those facts. We actually have a direction to the franchise for a change and it's from top to bottom one vision. We haven't had that since the last Finals team.

Im not living in the past. Im trying to be honest. Never said the future is grimm

Also 3 times in the last 4 years sounds a lot better than 4 times in the last 15 in regards to the playoffs.

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:Its a crap plan and it wont work out. There is a reason you strive to get better ever year. There is a reason you try to build something.

Its fun for the draft junkies but losing breeds more losing and drafting in sheer volume doesnt guarentee anything.

for example.. lets say your an elite franchise with multiple titles over recent years. Established and successful ownership and FO team. You start your rebuilding with a 5 year stretch of multiple high quality draft picks. I mean its a given your going to come out with some star players to build around right? Something like this:
Year 1: Pick 1 - Elton Brand
Year 2: Picks 2,8 - Marcus Fizer, Jamal Crawford
Year 3: Picks 2,4 - Tyson Chandler, Eddie Curry
Year 4: Pick 2 - Jay Williams
Year 5: Pick 7 - Kirk Heinrich

So... 5 years into it? 5 years of utterly dreadful basketball.

Whats even more telling about this stupid approach is when the Bulls started to get better and goto the playoffs. What turned that around? A group of players the EXACT OPPOSITE of must have stars approach. It was Duhon becoming the starting PG. It was a 25 year old rookie in Nocioni. To be fair Ben Gordon was high caliber talent and had a good rookie season. But the big impact player was Deng, who is your highly talented glue guy. Guys like Battier, Iguodalla, Tony Allen, Deng, back injured LJ was that guy for the Knicks... not sexy guys but high caliber low stat high impact guys.

Moving along the Bulls saw some good talent come and go. The have been well coached and thats been documented. Half this board wanks on Thibs team stats. All that and the Bulls reached the conf finals ONCE. Did I mention they added a #1 pick PG MVP along the way?

I mean you can do everything right and it still just doesnt work for one reason or another. And I mention the Bulls because they tend to keep the good talent and let the lesser go. Butler, Noah, Rose, Gibson... the keepers. Ben Gordon, Boozer, Hinrick.. the gonners. The continue to get it right.

Im not looking to use the Bulls as an example for failure. I mean start of every year they could be in the finals. I think all would agree here the Bulls have an envious roster and are well coached. Despite not winning I believe they are a model of success, and not unlike the Spurs model. Build around a core of quality. Spurs. Bulls. BUILD.

And I can tell you very simply and very easily why this guy is an absolute joke and will utterly and quickly fail.

Michael Carter Williams.

This will be probably not the first but the early and shining moment of this idiots total failure and mockery of what team sports is all about.

My god. A 6'6 PG putting up 15/7/6 in his rookie year. Yea his shooting stinks but the guy oozes talent, clearly has game and IS A 6'6 PG. Its like trading Penny Hardaway for three first rounders. No matter what your opiion of MCW you cant honestly say you can project his upside or downside at this time. He really could be another Penny type player. Maybe not. My point is simple... there is NO WAY to know after 50 NBA games. Certainly not in the environment they have created.

This guy is a joke.

Want to know whats NO JOKE? Michael Carter Williams starting his new career under Jason Kidd. Yikes.

Wake up dude... this GM is a joke. He's not qualified or capable of buiding anything. He's got an algorithm he plugs into his playstation. These are men. I watching this experiment fail with great interest because there is talent there easy to plunder.

everyone is so up in arms about MCW but they actually flipped him while he still had high value and they got back a potentially very high pick.

MCW is extremely talented but his shooting is not just bad, its beyond bad. Its brutal. He would need to average 15 assists per game to make up for his torrid shooting.

People who ignore metrics and just look at PPG will of course ignore this as well.

Who do you think is in a better position right now? Us or Philly? Is it even close?

The MCW was a trade that we would never make and that's why we suck. We don't make the right trades and the right time.

This pick that they got for MCW is top 5 protected but how about if they use it to select Stanley Johnson??

according to the numbers i have looked at he is a liability on offense but not a bad defender. if he can't shoot the ball, it may take quite a while to develop a jumper. yet his numbers indicate that he is not bad at sharing the ball if not an outright orchestrator. shooting can develop over a long time, orchestrating not so much. so if the trade is merited perhaps there's a timeline variable in there too.

if you look at espn rpm he is ranked 264th among nba players. that may well be what hinkie is looking at as well.

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:Its a crap plan and it wont work out. There is a reason you strive to get better ever year. There is a reason you try to build something.

Its fun for the draft junkies but losing breeds more losing and drafting in sheer volume doesnt guarentee anything.

for example.. lets say your an elite franchise with multiple titles over recent years. Established and successful ownership and FO team. You start your rebuilding with a 5 year stretch of multiple high quality draft picks. I mean its a given your going to come out with some star players to build around right? Something like this:
Year 1: Pick 1 - Elton Brand
Year 2: Picks 2,8 - Marcus Fizer, Jamal Crawford
Year 3: Picks 2,4 - Tyson Chandler, Eddie Curry
Year 4: Pick 2 - Jay Williams
Year 5: Pick 7 - Kirk Heinrich

So... 5 years into it? 5 years of utterly dreadful basketball.

Whats even more telling about this stupid approach is when the Bulls started to get better and goto the playoffs. What turned that around? A group of players the EXACT OPPOSITE of must have stars approach. It was Duhon becoming the starting PG. It was a 25 year old rookie in Nocioni. To be fair Ben Gordon was high caliber talent and had a good rookie season. But the big impact player was Deng, who is your highly talented glue guy. Guys like Battier, Iguodalla, Tony Allen, Deng, back injured LJ was that guy for the Knicks... not sexy guys but high caliber low stat high impact guys.

Moving along the Bulls saw some good talent come and go. The have been well coached and thats been documented. Half this board wanks on Thibs team stats. All that and the Bulls reached the conf finals ONCE. Did I mention they added a #1 pick PG MVP along the way?

I mean you can do everything right and it still just doesnt work for one reason or another. And I mention the Bulls because they tend to keep the good talent and let the lesser go. Butler, Noah, Rose, Gibson... the keepers. Ben Gordon, Boozer, Hinrick.. the gonners. The continue to get it right.

Im not looking to use the Bulls as an example for failure. I mean start of every year they could be in the finals. I think all would agree here the Bulls have an envious roster and are well coached. Despite not winning I believe they are a model of success, and not unlike the Spurs model. Build around a core of quality. Spurs. Bulls. BUILD.

And I can tell you very simply and very easily why this guy is an absolute joke and will utterly and quickly fail.

Michael Carter Williams.

This will be probably not the first but the early and shining moment of this idiots total failure and mockery of what team sports is all about.

My god. A 6'6 PG putting up 15/7/6 in his rookie year. Yea his shooting stinks but the guy oozes talent, clearly has game and IS A 6'6 PG. Its like trading Penny Hardaway for three first rounders. No matter what your opiion of MCW you cant honestly say you can project his upside or downside at this time. He really could be another Penny type player. Maybe not. My point is simple... there is NO WAY to know after 50 NBA games. Certainly not in the environment they have created.

This guy is a joke.

Want to know whats NO JOKE? Michael Carter Williams starting his new career under Jason Kidd. Yikes.

Wake up dude... this GM is a joke. He's not qualified or capable of buiding anything. He's got an algorithm he plugs into his playstation. These are men. I watching this experiment fail with great interest because there is talent there easy to plunder.

everyone is so up in arms about MCW but they actually flipped him while he still had high value and they got back a potentially very high pick.

MCW is extremely talented but his shooting is not just bad, its beyond bad. Its brutal. He would need to average 15 assists per game to make up for his torrid shooting.

People who ignore metrics and just look at PPG will of course ignore this as well.

Who do you think is in a better position right now? Us or Philly? Is it even close?

The MCW was a trade that we would never make and that's why we suck. We don't make the right trades and the right time.

This pick that they got for MCW is top 5 protected but how about if they use it to select Stanley Johnson??

according to the numbers i have looked at he is a liability on offense but not a bad defender. if he can't shoot the ball, it may take quite a while to develop a jumper. yet his numbers indicate that he is not bad at sharing the ball if not an outright orchestrator. shooting can develop over a long time, orchestrating not so much. so if the trade is merited perhaps there's a timeline variable in there too.

if you look at espn rpm he is ranked 264th among nba players. that may well be what hinkie is looking at as well.

When someone posts according to the numbers it sounds like they haven't watched the kid play. 6'6 point guards that are very talented don't come around that often. Young guys make mistakes. They also mature and improve. MCW already has shown he is a very good player. I think you have to assume that he will work on and improve his shot. Interesting that you champion a guy that took six seasons and needed a hard @ss as a coach to help him figure things out but yet you are so quick to throw a guy who passes the eye test if you watch already and won the Roy under the bus. I would think MCW will do great with the Bucks, better teammates and a better coach.

Don't forget he also had shoulder surgery in the offseason so couldn't work on his game. His shooting was bound to take a hit, as shoulder surgery alters your range of motion, plus he missed out on training camp and preseason, plus that team is so devoid of talent, teams can zero in their defences on him. Thats why you can't trust his stats at this point. It'll be interesting how he looks next season.