The key for Kerr is that he had a ready made team but was smart enough to realize that he shouldn't mess up what is already evident. Steph Curry and the team has been enhanced by playing there version of SSOL, Spurs Flow Offense and a little Triangle. It always starts with talent. Knicks need talent and then it would make some sense to tweak what they do to enhance that talent.

I would love to see a kid like Russell play in NY and depending on who else Phil brings in they can better determine what style of play works best. The Triangle can easily be tweaked in one direction or another. For a while we saw the Knicks using a lot more PnR and they tend to use the Pinch Post more than the actual Strong Side Triangle.

martin wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:The system is never the problem, it is always the plAyers or coach chosen to run the system who are the problem. Fisher could have chosen to slowly introduced the triangle to this bunch of one trick ponies, but he chose otherwise

how do you know he hasn't?

Our record is my proof.

nixluva wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:The system is never the problem, it is always the plAyers or coach chosen to run the system who are the problem. Fisher could have chosen to slowly introduced the triangle to this bunch of one trick ponies, but he chose otherwise

I think a lot of fans and media don't realize that Phil didn't want to win at any cost. He wasn't trying to play any old way just so the players could look better. He acknowledged that the players might look better if allowed to play more of an individualistic style of Ball. He wanted to know who was able to actually adjust to playing team ball and had the mental disposition to be part of the Knicks future. Now he knows who wasn't going to be part of the future and he started the house cleaning early.

Now Phil is seeing some small signs of improvement from the guys who remain. He will be able to add in more players who have the skills and mental disposition to play well in his system. This idea that Phil's assistants aren't able to effectively teach his system is WAY off base. They were part of his staff for multiple title runs. They know the system and how he wants it taught. The staff also has experience with other styles of play. Right now it's mostly about this team improving the talent base.

Phil has admitted that his plan so far has been an utter disaster. None of this was planned or envisioned.

Everyone knows the triangle IS very complicated and its not like his assistants have had success with it either without the MEGA stars.

You make it sound all masterful but its not.

It has been ugly so far and for the most part been a big failure though Phil has some time to right the ship and save face.

Let's see how it plays out and though its has not looked good for him thus far, we shall and will all give him a chance to (re)prove himself and his system.

Knicks1969 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:The system is never the problem, it is always the plAyers or coach chosen to run the system who are the problem. Fisher could have chosen to slowly introduced the triangle to this bunch of one trick ponies, but he chose otherwise

I think a lot of fans and media don't realize that Phil didn't want to win at any cost. He wasn't trying to play any old way just so the players could look better. He acknowledged that the players might look better if allowed to play more of an individualistic style of Ball. He wanted to know who was able to actually adjust to playing team ball and had the mental disposition to be part of the Knicks future. Now he knows who wasn't going to be part of the future and he started the house cleaning early.

Now Phil is seeing some small signs of improvement from the guys who remain. He will be able to add in more players who have the skills and mental disposition to play well in his system. This idea that Phil's assistants aren't able to effectively teach his system is WAY off base. They were part of his staff for multiple title runs. They know the system and how he wants it taught. The staff also has experience with other styles of play. Right now it's mostly about this team improving the talent base.

I agree with most you've said except for the assistants part. The only one who can be effective coaching the triangle as Phil assistant is Shaw. Unfortunately he is in Denver. Shaw is the only dude to have played in the system and sat next to Phil as an assistant. Forget all you've heard about the other names; Brian Shaw is THE only dude who can fully execute Phill/Tex Wi Winter style of play

And Mr Shaw will probably be available for us as another ex triangle coach.

I'll admit that I'm not knowledgable enough to truly understand the significance of the spacing the Triangle is based on, but I have to think it can be adjusted at times to spread the floor better and give us some open 3s. Seems that this would open up the middle for the cutters which are important to the system, but then again, I might just be wrong about this.

Knicks1969 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:The system is never the problem, it is always the plAyers or coach chosen to run the system who are the problem. Fisher could have chosen to slowly introduced the triangle to this bunch of one trick ponies, but he chose otherwise

I think a lot of fans and media don't realize that Phil didn't want to win at any cost. He wasn't trying to play any old way just so the players could look better. He acknowledged that the players might look better if allowed to play more of an individualistic style of Ball. He wanted to know who was able to actually adjust to playing team ball and had the mental disposition to be part of the Knicks future. Now he knows who wasn't going to be part of the future and he started the house cleaning early.

Now Phil is seeing some small signs of improvement from the guys who remain. He will be able to add in more players who have the skills and mental disposition to play well in his system. This idea that Phil's assistants aren't able to effectively teach his system is WAY off base. They were part of his staff for multiple title runs. They know the system and how he wants it taught. The staff also has experience with other styles of play. Right now it's mostly about this team improving the talent base.

I agree with most you've said except for the assistants part. The only one who can be effective coaching the triangle as Phil assistant is Shaw. Unfortunately he is in Denver. Shaw is the only dude to have played in the system and sat next to Phil as an assistant. Forget all you've heard about the other names; Brian Shaw is THE only dude who can fully execute Phill/Tex Wi Winter style of play

And Mr Shaw will probably be available for us as another ex triangle coach.

If he becomes available, Phil needs to hire him immediately and reassign Fisher to be his front office right hand man to replace Mills. After all, fisher is being paid to be around for four more years; thus, he needs to earn the contract at some capacity. It is eighter he resigns or reassign. Shaw is far better suited to coach what Phil wants.

Knicks1969 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:The system is never the problem, it is always the plAyers or coach chosen to run the system who are the problem. Fisher could have chosen to slowly introduced the triangle to this bunch of one trick ponies, but he chose otherwise

I think a lot of fans and media don't realize that Phil didn't want to win at any cost. He wasn't trying to play any old way just so the players could look better. He acknowledged that the players might look better if allowed to play more of an individualistic style of Ball. He wanted to know who was able to actually adjust to playing team ball and had the mental disposition to be part of the Knicks future. Now he knows who wasn't going to be part of the future and he started the house cleaning early.

Now Phil is seeing some small signs of improvement from the guys who remain. He will be able to add in more players who have the skills and mental disposition to play well in his system. This idea that Phil's assistants aren't able to effectively teach his system is WAY off base. They were part of his staff for multiple title runs. They know the system and how he wants it taught. The staff also has experience with other styles of play. Right now it's mostly about this team improving the talent base.

I agree with most you've said except for the assistants part. The only one who can be effective coaching the triangle as Phil assistant is Shaw. Unfortunately he is in Denver. Shaw is the only dude to have played in the system and sat next to Phil as an assistant. Forget all you've heard about the other names; Brian Shaw is THE only dude who can fully execute Phill/Tex Wi Winter style of play

I have to wonder where you think you have this insight from? Yes Brian Shaw was being groomed by Phil and is well versed in the system, but he's not the only one. What makes you think you're more of an expert on such things than Phil himself? Please explain for us where and how the coaching staff is failing to teach the basics and nuances of the Triangle to these players? Which of the many Basketball practices that Phil has run with his assistants were you at and noticed that they didn't know what they were doing?

Kurt Rambis was an assistant under Phil from 2001-2009. Jim Cleamons was an assistant under Phil from 1989-1996 and 1999-2004 and got to learn directly from Tex Winters longer than anyone but Phil. Fisher played Guard for Phil 9 years. I think Phil has some idea about how much his current staff knows about the system. Not to mention Phil is always able to give advice if he feels it's needed.

As associate coach, Kurt Rambis has aided rookie Derek Fisher in writing up practice plans, selecting training-camp offensive and defensive drills and often giving a discourse in triangle amid their marathon practices.

“Some coaches, they would irritate or disappoint me with some of their comments,” Cleamons, an assistant coach with the Milwaukee Bucks, said before a recent game against the Knicks. “We’ve never said that was the only way to play, or the best way to play. It’s just a way to play.”

Cleamons noted: “No matter what your system is, that’s got to be the first hurdle. So what’s happened with the triangle, because we won so much, it’s taken on a life of its own. But Tex always said that it’s basically a junior high school offense, based on the simple principle that any one of three positions — a guard, forward or center — can be your post player.

“At any time you can pass the ball to any of your four teammates, and if the defense takes any of those passes away, there’s a logical sequential action that takes place after that. If they take away all four passes, then you have an opportunity to drive the ball to the basket.”

IMO it's insulting to think that these men who spent countless hours with Phil in team practices, working with players and winning titles, somehow don't know how to teach this system.

They were assistants but other than Shaw, none of them had the privilege to play within the system and sit next to Phil as an assistant. Shaw is THE only one who was lucky enough to assume both positions. Say what you want, but you can't tell me that I am not telling the truth.

I already said that Shaw was being groomed by Phil but that doesn't mean that his longtime assistants don't know how to teach the system as you seem to be intimating. Phil hand picked Shaw and Fisher as young protege's whom he could groom. Phil said that he meets with Fish and Rambis after every game and they go over things together. There is nothing that would suggest that this staff isn't perfectly capable of instructing these players in the system. All of these men had the opportunity to learn the system from Tex over the years as well. With all the countless hours of practice and film sessions over the years, there's no way that Phil would bring these guys in if they didn't know this stuff inside out.

Knicks1969 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:The system is never the problem, it is always the plAyers or coach chosen to run the system who are the problem. Fisher could have chosen to slowly introduced the triangle to this bunch of one trick ponies, but he chose otherwise

I think a lot of fans and media don't realize that Phil didn't want to win at any cost. He wasn't trying to play any old way just so the players could look better. He acknowledged that the players might look better if allowed to play more of an individualistic style of Ball. He wanted to know who was able to actually adjust to playing team ball and had the mental disposition to be part of the Knicks future. Now he knows who wasn't going to be part of the future and he started the house cleaning early.

Now Phil is seeing some small signs of improvement from the guys who remain. He will be able to add in more players who have the skills and mental disposition to play well in his system. This idea that Phil's assistants aren't able to effectively teach his system is WAY off base. They were part of his staff for multiple title runs. They know the system and how he wants it taught. The staff also has experience with other styles of play. Right now it's mostly about this team improving the talent base.

I agree with most you've said except for the assistants part. The only one who can be effective coaching the triangle as Phil assistant is Shaw. Unfortunately he is in Denver. Shaw is the only dude to have played in the system and sat next to Phil as an assistant. Forget all you've heard about the other names; Brian Shaw is THE only dude who can fully execute Phill/Tex Wi Winter style of play

I have to wonder where you think you have this insight from? Yes Brian Shaw was being groomed by Phil and is well versed in the system, but he's not the only one. What makes you think you're more of an expert on such things than Phil himself? Please explain for us where and how the coaching staff is failing to teach the basics and nuances of the Triangle to these players? Which of the many Basketball practices that Phil has run with his assistants were you at and noticed that they didn't know what they were doing?

Kurt Rambis was an assistant under Phil from 2001-2009. Jim Cleamons was an assistant under Phil from 1989-1996 and 1999-2004 and got to learn directly from Tex Winters longer than anyone but Phil. Fisher played Guard for Phil 9 years. I think Phil has some idea about how much his current staff knows about the system. Not to mention Phil is always able to give advice if he feels it's needed.

As associate coach, Kurt Rambis has aided rookie Derek Fisher in writing up practice plans, selecting training-camp offensive and defensive drills and often giving a discourse in triangle amid their marathon practices.

“Some coaches, they would irritate or disappoint me with some of their comments,” Cleamons, an assistant coach with the Milwaukee Bucks, said before a recent game against the Knicks. “We’ve never said that was the only way to play, or the best way to play. It’s just a way to play.”

Cleamons noted: “No matter what your system is, that’s got to be the first hurdle. So what’s happened with the triangle, because we won so much, it’s taken on a life of its own. But Tex always said that it’s basically a junior high school offense, based on the simple principle that any one of three positions — a guard, forward or center — can be your post player.

“At any time you can pass the ball to any of your four teammates, and if the defense takes any of those passes away, there’s a logical sequential action that takes place after that. If they take away all four passes, then you have an opportunity to drive the ball to the basket.”

IMO it's insulting to think that these men who spent countless hours with Phil in team practices, working with players and winning titles, somehow don't know how to teach this system.

They were assistants but other than Shaw, none of them had the privilege to play within the system and sit next to Phil as an assistant. Shaw is THE only one who was lucky enough to assume both positions. Say what you want, but you can't tell me that I am not telling the truth.

I already said that Shaw was being groomed by Phil but that doesn't mean that his longtime assistants don't know how to teach the system as you seem to be intimating. Phil hand picked Shaw and Fisher as young protege's whom he could groom. Phil said that he meets with Fish and Rambis after every game and they go over things together. There is nothing that would suggest that this staff isn't perfectly capable of instructing these players in the system. All of these men had the opportunity to learn the system from Tex over the years as well. With all the countless hours of practice and film sessions over the years, there's no way that Phil would bring these guys in if they didn't know this stuff inside out.

Until one of the assistants can prove that he can win with the triangle, people will always feel as I do about it. It is a great system without a doubt,but not everyone can coach it.

You need to be fully committed to installing the system and letting the players work in it and develop. It's a system that takes time to fully grasp but moreover you still need talent. Players with good overall skills and an unselfish demeanor. Since it's a free flowing system that doesn't really have plays as much as a set of rules on how to respond to what the defense does. The longer your players are in the system the better they should get, much like any system. The only real problem this team has is a need for more talent.

Knicks1969 wrote:As much as I agree with your Insistence in talents, I disagree with your views regarding the coaching staff. I am one who truly believe that great coaches play a vital role in the success of a team, organization, etc. Judging on what I have seen thus far, I have little faith in Fisher as coach. I am not advocating for him to be fired, but if he doesn't show a better handle as a coach by next year, he will need to be replaced. He had the opportunity to establish his blueprint from the jump; specifically, given that he had the backing of Phil, but he failed to do so. If you ask me, he should have been much tougher on Csrmelo in the beginning; which would have garnered him respect from Carmelo's followers.

I understand how you feel, but it's really not about Fish IMO. Since the trade there was a very clear jump in execution and effort level. It's clear the team knows what it's trying to do now but only lacks enough talent to get wins. If you started Dragic for Jose and Matthews for Galloway you'd be talking about a much more potent team. Jose and Galloway would add depth to the bench while the starting unit would get MUCH more potent. It sounds simplistic but it is really about the talent at this point.

nixluva wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:As much as I agree with your Insistence in talents, I disagree with your views regarding the coaching staff. I am one who truly believe that great coaches play a vital role in the success of a team, organization, etc. Judging on what I have seen thus far, I have little faith in Fisher as coach. I am not advocating for him to be fired, but if he doesn't show a better handle as a coach by next year, he will need to be replaced. He had the opportunity to establish his blueprint from the jump; specifically, given that he had the backing of Phil, but he failed to do so. If you ask me, he should have been much tougher on Csrmelo in the beginning; which would have garnered him respect from Carmelo's followers.

I understand how you feel, but it's really not about Fish IMO. Since the trade there was a very clear jump in execution and effort level. It's clear the team knows what it's trying to do now but only lacks enough talent to get wins. If you started Dragic for Jose and Matthews for Galloway you'd be talking about a much more potent team. Jose and Galloway would add depth to the bench while the starting unit would get MUCH more potent. It sounds simplistic but it is really about the talent at this point.

So you think fishers is going to be a great coach as long as he has great players playing for him..

So if his defensive philosophy is to disregard defending the 3 ball (in a 3 ball era)and worry about the paint, that he's just going to change that once we get new players, you think he's going to wake up one july morning and all of a sudden figure out how to make his players successful, how to teach them, how to tinker the system to fit the player.

You think FA are licking there chops to play for FISHER and his coaching staff, you think their saying they can wait to play for a young inexperience coach who guided his team to 15 wins. If you are a veteran player or a agent, is that what you would advise your client to do, would this be your best chance to win now.

Fisher lacks in so many coaching areas that it's complete time consuming thing to ever think he will figure it out sooner than later. He's not ready, he's not close to being ready. I understand your respect for the man, and the system. The triangle is not the only way to play team ball.