nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Amare, Bargnani and hopefully Calderon and THJ will be gone. Replaced by our lottery pick and hopefully guys like butler, Matthews, green, Gasol, Millsap, Monroe, Ajinca, Lopez. So yes it is a rebuild

So it's a rebuild because of the moves you imagine Phil will make in the future?

OK so we only have a few players locked in for next year. We still have the trade deadline which will likely see a few more guys sent out. In any realistic assessment that is a rebuild. We're talking about a completely new core next year and all some of you guys can do is complain. We've waited forever for this team to actually have a shot at a top pick in addition to having cap space to add talent. This is about as close as we're likely to come to a total rebuild but only we aren't starting with nothing. All of this at the same time that we have a system in place and a totally in sync Prez on down to the ball boy!!!

We can't hope for much better than this at this point. It's all up in the air but it's better than being mediocre with no picks and no cap space!!!

I evaluate the GM's decision-making. When things are failing, that might look like complaining. If things ever actual succeed, it will look like praising.

Yes. I don't predict what he will do because I don't have a freakin clue. Nobody does besides him (hopefully).

How do you feel about the triangle?

It looks outdated. I've never seen an explanation of how it yields high quality shots.

because Nixluva would post how the lakers were efficient (which does mean something but what?). Lets hope we can draft a shaq and have kobe come in here next year and break down the defense.

Was it the players despite the system? An earlier version of the NBA? Hard to know but everybody seems to disagree with the triangle.

It's almost always mostly about the players but after a certain point you have to organize and train them into a precision machine much as all the top coaches have done. So having a system that will maximize the players efficiency is important as is the coaches ability to get everyone on the same page and focused only on things that lead to winning.

I can't take this notion that we have no idea what Phil can do with the roster. Of Course we can't predict exactly what he'll do, but we do have an idea so I resent the constant refrain from some that we have no idea like he's bound to do something completely ridiculous. How hard is it to figure out what he'll do when we have a top draft pick? We don't know exactly which player he'll pick, but what is most likely is a top prospect. From there he will be looking to fill out the rest of the starting roster in Free Agency and since there are only 3 positions left outside of Melo and whoever he takes in the draft, it's not a very difficult process to identify the available FA's who he could be targeting. Let's stop pretending it's some huge mystery. There are a finite number of options in the draft and FA.

why do you have so much confidence in phil after this disaster of a season, what has he done since he took the job that gives you this boat load of confidence in him that he'll make a solid pick, and bag a few nice FA, or even make a solid trade. So far he's proven he can't.

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Amare, Bargnani and hopefully Calderon and THJ will be gone. Replaced by our lottery pick and hopefully guys like butler, Matthews, green, Gasol, Millsap, Monroe, Ajinca, Lopez. So yes it is a rebuild

So it's a rebuild because of the moves you imagine Phil will make in the future?

OK so we only have a few players locked in for next year. We still have the trade deadline which will likely see a few more guys sent out. In any realistic assessment that is a rebuild. We're talking about a completely new core next year and all some of you guys can do is complain. We've waited forever for this team to actually have a shot at a top pick in addition to having cap space to add talent. This is about as close as we're likely to come to a total rebuild but only we aren't starting with nothing. All of this at the same time that we have a system in place and a totally in sync Prez on down to the ball boy!!!

We can't hope for much better than this at this point. It's all up in the air but it's better than being mediocre with no picks and no cap space!!!

I evaluate the GM's decision-making. When things are failing, that might look like complaining. If things ever actual succeed, it will look like praising.

Yes. I don't predict what he will do because I don't have a freakin clue. Nobody does besides him (hopefully).

How do you feel about the triangle?

It looks outdated. I've never seen an explanation of how it yields high quality shots.

because Nixluva would post how the lakers were efficient (which does mean something but what?). Lets hope we can draft a shaq and have kobe come in here next year and break down the defense.

Was it the players despite the system? An earlier version of the NBA? Hard to know but everybody seems to disagree with the triangle.

It's almost always mostly about the players but after a certain point you have to organize and train them into a precision machine much as all the top coaches have done. So having a system that will maximize the players efficiency is important as is the coaches ability to get everyone on the same page and focused only on things that lead to winning.

I can't take this notion that we have no idea what Phil can do with the roster. Of Course we can't predict exactly what he'll do, but we do have an idea so I resent the constant refrain from some that we have no idea like he's bound to do something completely ridiculous. How hard is it to figure out what he'll do when we have a top draft pick? We don't know exactly which player he'll pick, but what is most likely is a top prospect. From there he will be looking to fill out the rest of the starting roster in Free Agency and since there are only 3 positions left outside of Melo and whoever he takes in the draft, it's not a very difficult process to identify the available FA's who he could be targeting. Let's stop pretending it's some huge mystery. There are a finite number of options in the draft and FA.

why do you have so much confidence in phil after this disaster of a season, what has he done since he took the job that gives you this boat load of confidence in him that he'll make a solid pick, and bag a few nice FA, or even make a solid trade. So far he's proven he can't.

How do you add free agents without cap space?

as for the rest of your points lets see what he does in the offseason

BigDaddyG wrote:

TPercy wrote:He should consider modifying the triangle. Maybe instead of settling for that midrange shot, they should drive then kick out or someting like that. To me the triangle looks like an offense you would use in the zone defense nowadays

Maybe. But I don't see who we have on this roster to implement that kind of system. I don't think opposing defenses have any problem letting Calderon, Larkin and Prigs drive. They can't finish and they have few options to kick out to. THJ is still struggling. Maybe Jason Smith can start shooting more from downtown? I think what this team really needs is too manufacture more points in transition. I don't think Calderon can be counted on to push the tempo. Maybe more minutes for Larkin?

Actually he has been, and it would be nice if Melo passed the ball to him when he is opened from there. There are so many open 3's that we don't take advantage of on the double teams.

knicks1248 wrote:why do you have so much confidence in phil after this disaster of a season, what has he done since he took the job that gives you this boat load of confidence in him that he'll make a solid pick, and bag a few nice FA, or even make a solid trade. So far he's proven he can't.

1. He's not going to be working with as many leftovers from the previous regime. Rather than a patch job he'll be building almost an entire roster.

2. He'll be starting with a draft pick which could be top 5. This is a good draft in that range.

3. Phil didn't have cap space to really go after worthy Free Agents before and now he will.

4. Having attempted some things and getting more a feel for the work involved he's in a bit better situation to understand the task at hand. The 1st attempts were a test run that really didn't have much risk. If he failed the worst thing was getting embarrassed but he'd end up with a higher pick and he was able to make a final decision on players like JR and Shump. Now he knows it wasn't going to work with them and he could move on. Even Jose, who some consider his worst move, in terms of outcome, isn't the end of the world. Phil could hold on to Jose until he gets a decent offer or he can waive him using the stretch Provision. Compare that to Charlotte and Lance Stephenson or Billy King's mess with the Nets.

5. Phil at least has a blueprint in the mold of some of his past successful teams. He knows what his offense needs and how important defense is. Anyone who knows all the things Phil does has a chance to make smart picks. It's not a guarantee but I think he has a shot to get this right now that he has a chance at a top pick and enough cash to really go after quality Free Agents.

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:why do you have so much confidence in phil after this disaster of a season, what has he done since he took the job that gives you this boat load of confidence in him that he'll make a solid pick, and bag a few nice FA, or even make a solid trade. So far he's proven he can't.

Basing everything off of what happened to start this year is not a good way to judge what Phil is going to do from here.
The circumstances are far different now.

1. He's not going to be working with as many leftovers from the previous regime. Rather than a patch job he'll be building almost an entire roster.

2. He'll be starting with a draft pick which could be top 5. This is a good draft in that range.

3. Phil didn't have cap space to really go after worthy Free Agents before and now he will.

4. Having attempted some things and getting more a feel for the work involved he's in a bit better situation to understand the task at hand. The 1st attempts were a test run that really didn't have much risk. If he failed the worst thing was getting embarrassed but he'd end up with a higher pick and he was able to make a final decision on players like JR and Shump. Now he knows it wasn't going to work with them and he could move on. Even Jose, who some consider his worst move, in terms of outcome, isn't the end of the world. Phil could hold on to Jose until he gets a decent offer or he can waive him using the stretch Provision. Compare that to Charlotte and Lance Stephenson or Billy King's mess with the Nets.

5. Phil at least has a blueprint in the mold of some of his past successful teams. He knows what his offense needs and how important defense is. Anyone who knows all the things Phil does has a chance to make smart picks. It's not a guarantee but I think he has a shot to get this right now that he has a chance at a top pick and enough cash to really go after quality Free Agents.

I have no choice but to wait and see, I believe in 2nd chances regardless of anything. Trading JR and Shump for nothing was like a foul ball on a 0-2 pitch, he has 14 days to make a trade to help solidify the future, at least hit a base hit.

Cmon Nix, phils been striking out swinging and you know it. He missed out on kerr, hired fisher (strike 1) He traded tyson for calderon and suspects, not prospects (strike 2) consider signing melo no more than a foul ball, and see above with the J and Shump trade.

Phil has an old school approach, and you can never expect fisher to be a NYk type guy, the dude is to passive for this town. ANY COACH that loses 60+ games in a season doesn't deserve to be a head coach

Your leaving out some details regarding Phil's moves. It's understandable given the record and how early it is after the trades to be making any kind of judgment.

JR had to go!!! Clearing JR's cap hit was worth sending Shump away for almost nothing. We did get 2 trade exceptions a $6 mil and a $2.5 Mil and a 2019 2nd rd pick. Not exactly a great haul, but it's not nothing.

In that deal of Tyson, Phil added Early, Thanasis, Larkin and Acy via a trade of Ellington. Phil also added the French Prospect Labeyrie, Wear and Galloway. Lance Thomas seems like he could be a useful reserve. Overall nothing jumps out at you but it's extremely early to make any real judgements on prospects. Just a few months of one season isn't enough time to judge these prospects. The Spurs spend years developing their guys and sometimes they look horrid early on. We're gonna need some guys who have spent time in this system.

Fisher is the least of our problems. He's an easy target right now, but really our biggest issue is TALENT.

I think many of his principles are timeless; I think the roster was more or less worthless.

I think mostly everyone here underestimated how important Tyson was, including Phil.

In closing, I think the system will attract the right type of basketball players.

I'm excited to have a top pick for once and the ability to add a few guys like Tobias Harris.

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:I think my post belongs in this thread instead, since this is the one I saw the reference to SSOL...

when here had SSOL, or SOSSOL (Son of SSOL). I was very interested in seeing that work here, and we debated over and over whether the problem was the system ("There's no defense!") or that never had the players he needed. Linsanity proved to some that SSOL can work with the right players. With hindsight, what is your opinion about the success/failure of SSOL as a system in the NBA at that time?

3-4 years later we are now embarking on another system: the Triangle, and again proposing that until the right players come along, it won't work.

Melo was here as our star player for both of these systems. Do either of these systems do anything to capitalize on his game?

Or for all the crap Woodson got, maybe he made the most responsible choice in molding his playbook around the personnel? And just on an efficiency/value proposition, shouldn't this approach be the default?

I don't know Xs and Os and never played organized ball, so a lot of the system talk goes over my head. But apparently it goes over the heads of the pros as well! If Kerr is winning with a melange of plays from different systems capitalizing on his current roster, why can't we do that? Particularly, what is the best system for Melo?

no system suits or has suited melo so you have to ask whether there's something fundamentally wrong with melo's game or his approach to the game, just as you would ask about stephon marbury's and other career underachievers....

i'll throw out a few terms: tweener, defense, bbiq

I think the way that Phil envisions Melo fitting is to basically have him not be a dominant part of the offense for the entire game, but when the end of the game comes and things get tough to use his shot making ability to help close games out. That's basically what he was always supposed to be in NY, a closer. However, if you don't have a good team then you end up with Melo trying to do too much in the middle of the game and his game isn't really best suited to that. Now some players are what I call middle of the game Studs cuz they are very efficient and do a lot of the little things you want but at the end of a game you can't just give them the ball and expect them to really create and dominate for a stretch of crunch time. Guys like Chris Bosh, Blake Griffin, David Lee and Kevin Love.

We also need more than just Melo. Having a PG like a Kyrie, Wall or Rose who could be a legit scoring threat or playmaker at the end of games is a huge missing piece for this team along with a consistent low post threat. So it would seem that Phil's main targets for his team will be Center and PG followed by SG. But that isn't exactly a big new flash since we don't have a legit starting 5. The thing is that an improvement in talent across the starting unit is going to be extremely important to making the system more effective. That is always the case.

Right now we target Melo for criticism because there isn't much else to point at. However, if we add significant talent to the rest of the roster it will reduce Melo's impact on wins and losses and spread that responsibility around more evenly. This is what you get with other top teams like the Hawks and Warriors. We need to worry less about Melo and more about who else is on the roster. We need more talent period.

i think you're giving melo too much credit for fitting in and being more complementary-- he has had every opportunity to do so, and has not shown the ability. what makes this scenario in new york any different, with a system that doesn't cater to his proclivities and deeply-ingrained habits? your basically conceding that he is hard to play with, since the problem can't be solved with him as the starting point.

do you foresee him doing all this moving off the ball, and doing more catch and shoot stuff? do you see his usage going down accordingly, and sharing the ball-- since he is not on the same level as jordan or bryant? i point out to you that with both players their usage to assist rate ratio was a very admirable 1.35:1. in jordan's prime that ratio came down to around 1.2:1 which is extraordinary, with bryant not far behind.

melo's has been closer to 2.2:1 his entire career. that's way too high. i will be continuing to look at this ratio very closely as the litmus test for his effectiveness in the triangle.

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:Only TEAMS win games and not just one player. We need the TEAM to get better and to have more than just Melo to rely on.

We have a great blueprint in what the Hawks have been able to do with not a lot of expensive talent. A team full of solid team players with all around skills and BB IQ can get a lot done and won't cost more than we can afford. If we can develop a few guys that would make it even more successful. I really don't see the point of the endless rehashing of what went wrong considering the opportunities this team has ahead with the Draft and Free Agency.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/atlanta.htm

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm

You keep ignoring the base point. For what Melo costs to be on the Knicks in the first place, it limits how much cap is left over to build this "mythical" team you are talking about.

In no way, shape, or form can the Knicks emulate what the Hawks have done.

The Hawks HIGHEST paid player is Al Horford at 12 million. Jeff Teague, a fringe MVP candidate so far, is making just a million bucks more than Jose Calderon. The Hawks have no one making between 22-26 million a year locked in.

Are you just being willfully obtuse on purpose?

Melo is AN EXISTING EXPENSIVE TALENT.

Players who have all around skills and high IQ are in demand, most have an established base market value. Assembling this mythical team at practical market value for those skills will COST MORE than the 60 percent of cap left the Knicks have after paying Melo.

Developing guys takes YEARS. Jimmy Butler and Reggie Jackson, recent hot flavors of UK lately, have both taken years to develop. In 2-3 years, how old is Melo then? What does he cost then? How likely is he going to be the player the Knicks need then?

You don't see the point because the basic math eludes you.

The Hawks have their situation for the express reason that they DIDN'T pay a guy 40 percent of their cap. The one guy who was hogging their cap, they shipped right out of town.

You can't spread around money when there is no money to spread.

At the start of Year 4 of Phil Jackson's and Melo's deal, the Knicks will have seen ONE FIRST ROUND DRAFT PICK come to the team. The Hawks core was built through the draft. Can the Knicks draft a guy this year and develop him. Absolutely. And when he's ready to really understand the league and pay his dues and get some experience, 2 to 3 years from now, both Melo and Phil are one foot out the door based on their contracts.

Assembling this "team" of yours, building a practical winner, along with Melo and his contract, is just not possible. Not against the timetable of Phil Jackson's and Melo's contracts.

Your tactic seems to be simply avoiding any Melo issue by saying build around him limitations. Which would be fine, if Melo didn't cost so much to start.

For the Knicks to have a real chance at a future, they need to trade Melo. If it makes some you feel better, just call him Player X with Attributes Y and Limitations Z making [This Amount Of Cap Space] Any player in that equation would need to be traded to get a real future.

You keep accusing me of things which really have no bearing on the issue. Please prove that it would be impossible for the Knicks to try and add low cost talent to the team simply because Melo is making his large salary. You can't just oversimplify this argument the way you are. You write a lot of words but when you get right down to it, there isn't really much too your argument. It's not the cost of the players Atlanta has put together but rather the quality of the players. IMO we most certainly have a shot to build a good team in a similar manner despite Melo large salary.

Al Horford	C	$12,000,000   Carmelo Anthony   SF  $22,875,000
Paul Millsap	PF	$9,500,000    Jose Calderon     PG  $7,402,812
Jeff Teague	PG	$8,000,000    Tim Hardaway Jr.  SG  $1,304,520
Kyle Korver	SF	$6,253,521    Quincy Acy        SF  $1,181,348
Thabo Sefolosha	SG	$4,150,000    Travis Wear       PF  $1,045,059
Mike Scott	PF	$3,333,333    Cleanthony Early  SF  $845,059
DeMarre Carroll	SF	$2,442,455    Langston Galloway PG  $845,059
Shelvin Mack	PG	$2,433,333    
Kent Bazemore	SG	$2,000,000
Elton Brand	PF	$2,000,000
Adreian Payne	PF	$1,855,320
Dennis Schröder	PG	$1,690,680
John Jenkins	SG	$1,312,920
Pero Antic	PF	$1,250,000
Mike Muscala	PF	$816,482

We can guess that one source of talent will be our draft pick. If we're lucky we can really get a good player. After that we're talking about Phil making smart FA signings. Just look at the Hawks and it's not a roster with big names so why should it be so impossible for the Knicks to try and make smart FA signings with low cost players? I don't know if the Knicks can be as successful as the Hawks in landing cheap but quality talent. I think Phil will try at least a little to try and find those kinds of high value players. We don't have to match them dollar for dollar in cheap players in order to be successful.

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:Right now we target Melo for criticism because there isn't much else to point at. However, if we add significant talent to the rest of the roster it will reduce Melo's impact on wins and losses and spread that responsibility around more evenly. This is what you get with other top teams like the Hawks and Warriors. We need to worry less about Melo and more about who else is on the roster. We need more talent period.

What is with this "we" narrative?

YOU don't criticize Melo at all. You simply ignore all questions regarding his

- Lack of defense ( including just raw defensive effort)
- Low basketball IQ
- Saying stupid things to the press
- Doesn't make the players around him better
- Doesn't move well off the ball
- Poor shot selection
- Poor conditioning ( relative to his status as a professional athlete then again as the "franchise player")
- His massive cap hit ( you keep talking about getting all this other help, how do you fit the COST of those player, against practical market value for them, to surround a guy chewing up 40 percent of your cap?)

The biggest thing you fail to address is WHEN YOU ARE IN THE NBA FOR OVER A DECADE, WHAT YOU ARE NOW IS LIKELY ALL YOU WILL EVER BE, EXCEPT FOR DECLINE. Sometimes you see other people, and you, say "Well if Melo just did this a little more, or that a little more" as if that kind of change was likely.

Just come clean. To contend, the Knicks need to BUILD AN ENTIRE ROSTER WHERE MELO CAN BE A SIXTH MAN AT THE COST OF 60 PERCENT OF THEIR REMAINING CAP SPACE. And you keep talking about getting a point guard as if A) the Triangle seeks to negate the need for the traditional ball dominant point guard and B) that Melo will suddenly learn to move well off the ball to make the most efficiency of said point guard, aside from all the Triangle conflicts inherent.

The Warriors and Hawks have core players who BRING MORE ANSWERS THAN QUESTIONS. That offer more FLEXIBILITY THAN LIMITATIONS.

How do you worry less about Melo on the roster and focus on the rest of the roster when you CAN ONLY SPEND 60 PERCENT OF YOUR CAP since you are paying Melo that huge contract? You can't functionally separate what the rest of the roster can and can't do and be without factoring in the limitations that Melo brings.

Melo eats it here because he can't even do the BARE MINIMUM of what's generally expected of a FRANCHISE PLAYER.

Come in and show up in elite game shape. Don't say stupid things to the press. Melo can't even do that. That's pathetic. That there are people here who have set the bar so low for themselves on how a franchise player should behave is even more pathetic.

Phil Jackson and Melo are being torched in the press because the entire Knicks organization is in an open contradiction. You just won't see Dolan or Zen Master or Melo admit it.

There's a 70 year old geriatric FIRST TIME GM with a 60 million dollar golden parachute tasked to a team where a clear reboot/rebuild is needed. Most of the other NBA franchises would wipe the slate clean and start over, not hire a splash name for some easy PR and his arcane quotes.

There's a 12 year NBA All Star on the least talented 15 man roster in the league. His contract timetable will likely do little else than create a treadmill team, if more help comes, by the time it develops, it will happen at the end of his contract window. Most other NBA franchises would see the futility to this contradiction and trade Melo.

The Knicks are eating it in the press because they haven't PICKED A DIRECTION. Trying to gun for it, making huge miscalculation then burning out what few trade assets you have left then deciding to tank it out is not picking a direction. It's getting your ass kicked and then having to run home with your football.

Blow it up and rebuild from the ground up or Gun For It.

Since there exists no real practical scenario to Gun For It, then your only choice is to blow it up and rebuild. Do it now or do it later, it has to happen. Like I said before, this is like some jerkoff deciding to ignore the dentist no matter how much the daily pain is breaking him. The drilling is going to happen, might as well eat it now.

I dont know how much blowing up you need at this point, we only have like 2 players with contracts through next season.

TripleThreat wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I dont know how much blowing up you need at this point, we only have like 2 players with contracts through next season.

Any other functional franchise, with a team president actually looking to do what's best for the team long term, would

1) Hire a full time GM, get someone with real front office experience. Someone young, someone from a winning team, someone who has a background in scouting and analytics. Someone young and hungry and aggressive.

2) Trade Melo, even if it's for cents on the dollar at this point. Open up the cap space, get some kind of assets back.

Nixluva talks about oversimplifying it, but IMHO it is that simple.

If Melo lovers here want to feel better about it, take any non franchise center, any one dimensional non defense player and pay him 40 percent of your cap, and the same situation would apply, the best move is to trade him. Even for cents on the dollar at this point.

You cannot win in the NBA, not under the current market conditions, with a paid to market franchise player who cannot/will not/just doesn't care about defense.