This idea that Phil has no idea what he's doing just cuz his 1st efforts failed is a bit overstated. He may have underestimated the depth of the problem but he did the right thing by scrapping that plan A and moving on to plan B. This current situation where he has a chance to reload the roster with players who should have a longterm place in the plan is a much better situation.

fishmike wrote:

Nalod wrote:Halfway thru the season has been a disaster. The record speaks for itself.

Does the Triangle so complicted that players will repel from it because its "complicated"?
If Phil can't get guys ere except for money then it will be a problem.
If Phil can't draft a guy that gets it, it could be a problem.

Can't say Im loving what has happend, but what can we do? Hire the mystical Popovitch deciple and what does he do differnt?

IM gonna wait it out. Often the path least taken is the path is the path to success. The path of least resistent is the path usually taken by the masses. The Masses are unremarkable.
No guarantee was given.

I dont think its been a disaster, that would be a situtation that hurt our future. Rather has simply been a failure. We all knew cap space was important. We all knew Amare/Jr/Bargs were not part of the future. We were pretty sure Shump wouldnt be either with his cap hold etc... what we did hope was that these guys in their last year here would play like guys in walk years looking for new contracts and hopefully play spirited basketball. That has been a failure. The hope of getting production from the guys on their way out the door yielded nothing. OK... we move on. Use the situation to build the bottom of the roster and find some youtheir guys who can play in the system and look OK.

The real disaster or success will start with next year's roster. Does Phil draft a bust? Do any FAs come here? Does the triangle scare players away?

I guess in the "Zen" sense, "Disaster" is a too strong word.

When written in Chinese the word crisis is composed of two characters. One represents danger, and the other represents opportunity

dk7th wrote:http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM

this is a list of the players according to real plus/minus, a measure i think is quite valuable in terms of floor impact. will there be "exceptions" and "anomalies?" i suppose so, but as a general yardstick it is definitely worth looking at.

of note: leonard, duncan, and ginobili are all in the top 35. parker is not listed at all, but when healthy he is in the top 50. in each case both defensively and offensively they are net positive-sum.

that cannot be said for other players populating the top 50 slots, and when you have a high positive but also a high negative, the net rpm stat can be misleading.

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

dk7th wrote:http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM

this is a list of the players according to real plus/minus, a measure i think is quite valuable in terms of floor impact. will there be "exceptions" and "anomalies?" i suppose so, but as a general yardstick it is definitely worth looking at.

of note: leonard, duncan, and ginobili are all in the top 35. parker is not listed at all, but when healthy he is in the top 50. in each case both defensively and offensively they are net positive-sum.

that cannot be said for other players populating the top 50 slots, and when you have a high positive but also a high negative, the net rpm stat can be misleading.

And the player we gave up to get Calderon is in the top 10

It's a great stat but there's more to the game than that one metric. Tyson is having a great season, but that doesn't mean he would be doing as well here in NY this year. Heck last year he was down a bit at #31 on the list verses this year. In any event this team has bigger fish to fry than worrying about Tyson. We'll be building a team with more of a view to the future and with a better overall fit for the system in mind. Maybe it works out that we draft a better version of Tyson so to speak. A defensive C who can also excel offensively in this system.

i agree context is important. what seems important is that team success in the playoffs is going to be based on acquiring players who are net positive-sum on both sides of the ball. if you have players who excel on one side but are detrimental on the other side you end up having greater challenges when the competition becomes tighter, ie the varsity season.

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

dk7th wrote:http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM

this is a list of the players according to real plus/minus, a measure i think is quite valuable in terms of floor impact. will there be "exceptions" and "anomalies?" i suppose so, but as a general yardstick it is definitely worth looking at.

of note: leonard, duncan, and ginobili are all in the top 35. parker is not listed at all, but when healthy he is in the top 50. in each case both defensively and offensively they are net positive-sum.

that cannot be said for other players populating the top 50 slots, and when you have a high positive but also a high negative, the net rpm stat can be misleading.

And the player we gave up to get Calderon is in the top 10

It's a great stat but there's more to the game than that one metric. Tyson is having a great season, but that doesn't mean he would be doing as well here in NY this year. Heck last year he was down a bit at #31 on the list verses this year. In any event this team has bigger fish to fry than worrying about Tyson. We'll be building a team with more of a view to the future and with a better overall fit for the system in mind. Maybe it works out that we draft a better version of Tyson so to speak. A defensive C who can also excel offensively in this system.

I'm not worried about Tyson - I'm worried that our GM is doing a better job improving other teams than our own. If Tyson wasn't here but we got significant assets that were part of the long-term plan, I'd be thrilled.

Exactly, there are more options than:

A Tyson still being on the team

and

B Trading Tyson for Calderon, Dalembert, and two 2nd round picks

We traded one of our only assets and got nothing back in return.

1st of all, most of the players are gone. Any moves made now are basically finishing off the sell off and we have almost no players locked in for next season. We have the draft and a huge Free Agency to get thru. Instead of just patching, this plan is about building a new core, which we have only one player right now in Melo. This is a totally different scenario now with totally different set of options.

Bonn1997 wrote:Thanks for telling us what Phil will do. Can you give the weather forecast too?

I've posted all of his comments before and it's not me just guessing at what Phil has actually said he intends to do. Now some things won't work out exactly as he plans, but his intentions are clear. I think this trope that i'm trying to mind read is way overdone. Just look at the statements Phil has made and he's telling us what he's going to try to do. That's all i've been saying.

The only real problem I have with Jackson is making Fisher run the triangle then standing back and letting Fisher twist in the wind. Fisher hasn't been exactly stellar as coach, but I wonder how he would do if he got to choose how he wanted to run the offense.

I get the feeling that if Phil doesn't make real progress next season as far as building a foundation, he will walk.

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Jackson is learning on the job. He's smart enough IMO to learn from his mistakes and do a better job of assembling a competitive roster. We aren't even through half a season and some folks already want him gone. Great, lets make Mills president again. Let all those agents he has on his rolodex call him because they know Mills will get their clients way more than they're worth and for more years.

The only real problem I have with Jackson is making Fisher run the triangle then standing back and letting Fisher twist in the wind. Fisher hasn't been exactly stellar as coach, but I wonder how he would do if he got to choose how he wanted to run the offense.

I get the feeling that if Phil doesn't make real progress next season as far as building a foundation, he will walk.

good post.

will phil walk before he abandons the triangle?

Phil used the triangle to become the winningest coach in NBA history, Fisher didn't. I understand Jackson doesn't want to be hovering over Fisher like Snoop at his son's press conference, but once it was clear that the players were having trouble grasping the offense, it should have been all hands on deck IMO. His assistants for various reasons couldnt make the triangle work, this is a good time for a refresher course. It still might not help but at least Phil would be taking a more active role.

I respect Phil for not taking the company line and telling it like it is, just want to see him get more involved. It also couldnt hurt if he were given more control over who is on his staff.

Nalod wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Jackson is learning on the job. He's smart enough IMO to learn from his mistakes and do a better job of assembling a competitive roster. We aren't even through half a season and some folks already want him gone. Great, lets make Mills president again. Let all those agents he has on his rolodex call him because they know Mills will get their clients way more than they're worth and for more years.

The only real problem I have with Jackson is making Fisher run the triangle then standing back and letting Fisher twist in the wind. Fisher hasn't been exactly stellar as coach, but I wonder how he would do if he got to choose how he wanted to run the offense.

I get the feeling that if Phil doesn't make real progress next season as far as building a foundation, he will walk.

Players didn't buy into it. JR, Shump.....for what ever reason. FIsh nows how to coach it and he has enough assitants. IT takes time.

we are forgetting the elephant in the room

MELO!

He is the guy who we need buy in from and we ain't getting it.

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

mreinman wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Jackson is learning on the job. He's smart enough IMO to learn from his mistakes and do a better job of assembling a competitive roster. We aren't even through half a season and some folks already want him gone. Great, lets make Mills president again. Let all those agents he has on his rolodex call him because they know Mills will get their clients way more than they're worth and for more years.

The only real problem I have with Jackson is making Fisher run the triangle then standing back and letting Fisher twist in the wind. Fisher hasn't been exactly stellar as coach, but I wonder how he would do if he got to choose how he wanted to run the offense.

I get the feeling that if Phil doesn't make real progress next season as far as building a foundation, he will walk.

good post.

will phil walk before he abandons the triangle?

Phil used the triangle to become the winningest coach in NBA history, Fisher didn't. I understand Jackson doesn't want to be hovering over Fisher like Snoop at his son's press conference, but once it was clear that the players were having trouble grasping the offense, it should have been all hands on deck IMO. His assistants for various reasons couldnt make the triangle work, this is a good time for a refresher course. It still might not help but at least Phil would be taking a more active role.

I respect Phil for not taking the company line and telling it like it is, just want to see him get more involved. It also couldnt hurt if he were given more control over who is on his staff.

If you think Phil's assistants aren't supremely versed in how to teach the Triangle then you are lost. These men have been there with him for way too long and he HAND PICKED these guys and has complete control of who is on the staff. You think he'd know if they understood how to teach the system from his many years working with these guys. Don't confuse the fact that neither Rambis nor Cleamons was successful as an indictment of their ability to teach the system. You have to dig deeper into the situation both men were dealing with at that time. There is more to the story.

The Triangle needs smart and skilled players with a team oriented mindset and a GM willing to provide what is needed and patience. If players can't or won't buy in that isn't solely on the coach. It could also be that neither Rambis nor Cleamons is head coach material, but that doesn't mean they can't teach the system. The role of an assistant is different than a head coach.

I may be wrong once in a while, but at least Im not so far gone that I have a messianic belief in how right I am, like you do Nix. Knowing something and being able to teach it are two completely different things. Jackson is taking a very hands off approach, if we weren't having the worst run in franchise history I wouldn't have an issue with this strategy. Ive said Phil needs more time as an exec, just want him to be more involved in all phases of the operation. I believe that would a good thing.