fishmike wrote:

blkexec wrote: Money changed the foundation of basketball so you cant use money to measure how important defense is. But theres no need to go back and forth....we will agree to disagree.

but you can use money to gauge value. That was my only point. That and Thibs style of driving guys to defend 100% defend like mad for 48m is not sustainable unless your star players have bought in 100% or your winning titles.

Now which of those points do you disagree with?

This is not about how to properly play the game. It's what's valued in the NBA. DK/f5/trublue would love to spin this differently.

Yeah because James Harden after a stella offensive season last year

Got toasted and roasted for not playing D

What is the media saying about the Cavs and Kevin Love and Kyrie at this time

Now that Harden is playing D he's a Top seed MVP Candidate

Oh and I have a very important message from

Tyson Chandler, Andrew Bogut, Wesley Matthews, Paul George[pre broken leg], Al Horford, Jimmy Butler

Dwight Howard, Serge Ibaka, Joakim Noah, Tony Allen, De'Andre Jordan, Kawhai Leonard, Anthony Davis

F500ONE wrote:

fishmike wrote:

blkexec wrote: Money changed the foundation of basketball so you cant use money to measure how important defense is. But theres no need to go back and forth....we will agree to disagree.

but you can use money to gauge value. That was my only point. That and Thibs style of driving guys to defend 100% defend like mad for 48m is not sustainable unless your star players have bought in 100% or your winning titles.

Now which of those points do you disagree with?

This is not about how to properly play the game. It's what's valued in the NBA. DK/f5/trublue would love to spin this differently.

Yeah because James Harden after a stella offensive season last year

Got toasted and roasted for not playing D

What is the media saying about the Cavs and Kevin Love and Kyrie at this time

Now that Harden is playing D he's a Top seed MVP Candidate

Oh and I have a very important message from

Tyson Chandler, Andrew Bogut, Wesley Matthews, Paul George[pre broken leg], Al Horford, Jimmy Butler

Dwight Howard, Serge Ibaka, Joakim Noah, Tony Allen, De'Andre Jordan, Kawhai Leonard

when did harden start playing defense?

Cartman718 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:Thibs style is not really sustainable in the league unless your winning titles AND have the support of your 2-3 best players. While defense is valued its still a far distant 2nd to scoring.

wow

DK I would let that one slide no need to itemize it

Hey just so you know I'll be headed to the garage in a bit

Just got through dashing with some seasoning, a pinch of salt, soft squeeze of lemon, and light spread of butter

The FISH will be ready, let me know if I should bring some Hot Sauce

no hot sauce thanks but let me guess the fish is a bottom-feeding sole with two eyes on one side of its head?

this explains so much.

kerrrannnnnggg! yeah that's right i turned up the fender to eleven.

when are you two getting married? thibs goes before d-rose. it's a players league. case in point d'antoni gone from NY and LAL.

if thibs goes before d-rose then it only underscores and confirms for me personally the extant banal cynicism that david stern introduced to utterly corrupt this professional sport.

if rose goes before thibs then it means there's hope that the notion of "culture change" actually has traction, at least outside of new york. bonus points: you'd be wrong.

thibs is a better leader than d'antoni. leadership means something when it comes to winning.

rose is not a leader... have you noticed? meanwhile noah is.

no one questioned rose not being a leader when he was voted mvp. now suddenly there are doubts lol. ijs

"no one?" did you ask me? he is not a leader-- and never was-- because he is a below average defender who at the same time really can't orchestrate or make others around him better. though far better than marbury he is still cut from the same cloth. rose even when healthy was overrated. the rest of the team, especially noah and deng, had to make up for rose's deficiencies. he may be a native son but i think he will be wearing out his welcome in chicago and won't be there forever.

regular-season mvp is a weird award, the voting process is filled with caprice and subjectivity. besides, the regular season is the jayvee season.

mreinman wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

fishmike wrote:

blkexec wrote: Money changed the foundation of basketball so you cant use money to measure how important defense is. But theres no need to go back and forth....we will agree to disagree.

but you can use money to gauge value. That was my only point. That and Thibs style of driving guys to defend 100% defend like mad for 48m is not sustainable unless your star players have bought in 100% or your winning titles.

Now which of those points do you disagree with?

This is not about how to properly play the game. It's what's valued in the NBA. DK/f5/trublue would love to spin this differently.

Yeah because James Harden after a stella offensive season last year

Got toasted and roasted for not playing D

What is the media saying about the Cavs and Kevin Love and Kyrie at this time

Now that Harden is playing D he's a Top seed MVP Candidate

Oh and I have a very important message from

Tyson Chandler, Andrew Bogut, Wesley Matthews, Paul George[pre broken leg], Al Horford, Jimmy Butler

Dwight Howard, Serge Ibaka, Joakim Noah, Tony Allen, De'Andre Jordan, Kawhai Leonard

when did harden start playing defense?

HMMMM Mr All-World Metrics "I Understand What Smart Guys Say" fails again

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2015_leaders.html

Oh wait I bet now you want to fall on your "Eye Test" here

This isn't a gotcha moment this is a reminder you have to be equally balanced

In the tools you use to asses otherwise you will be GOT

The context in what we were discussing as blkexec pointed out

Is what it will take to win defense is not a distant second to offense

When it comes to coaching and execution in this league

mreinman wrote:

RonRon wrote:Wonder if they still have interest in CA
They are our contenders but they also have the pieces to give us back the players/assets/picks to help us rebuild by 2years

they are so cheap, no way they take on that contract now.

Had Cav's not traded 2 1st rounders for MoSGoV, I would even trade CA for Triston Thompson and Varajo *to match CA's contracts, in addition to the picks they still own*
Then look to trade Triston Thompson for 2 2nd rounders in this draft or a combination of picks
While Triston Thompson's is basically an expiring and Varajo's is only partial guaranteed for 1 more year I believe...

That roster would leave them a small window to compete in a high level in which we would be contenders in 2017 while concentrating on development with the picks and signing cap friendly players and young talents

I do not mind *overpaying for Draymond Green* as I believe he can be the leader of a franchise and teach our guys how to play, how to train, and still improve
GS's ability to defend at a high level is not a fluke, it is Championship caliber defense

fishmike wrote:

blkexec wrote:Thanks for the insight fish....If we ever get together for pickup ball....i will make sure to not pick you up. Then i will shut you down to show you the value of defense.

Your reasoning for offense vs defense using salary comparisons is way off base. Offensive players make more money because fans want to be entertained. But if you want to win, a good coach will always value defense over offense.

Defense is consistent because its all about effort.
Offense will always be inconsistent.

I cant count how many championship games we won after i told the team not to worry about offense....use your energy to stop them on defense and we win. Thats what a solid 2way player can do for you.

The same fans that value offense over defense are the same fans that continues to pick Lin as the starting guard for the west. Money changed the foundation of basketball so you cant use money to measure how important defense is. But theres no need to go back and forth....we will agree to disagree.

You missed the point completely. Where did I say I value scoring more? I said "it's valued more." Then I offered some examples of no defense playing money guys who out earn defensive guys who are better players.

You don't have to explain to me. I grew up on Giants of the 80s. Defense is religion to me. But look around the league.. If defense is valued as you say why are the scorers making the loot?

My observation was simple.. Despite defense winning championships who gets paid? The scorers. Do you disagree?

Five of last 10 MVPs were scorers. Nash 2x, Rose, Dirk, and Durant. KD is a decent defender to be sure but he won an MVP for scoring.

Nobody is saying defense isn't important. I said its still a second to scoring. Its a scoring league. Look at the rules changes since the 90s.. It's for more scoring.

The league legalized zone in 2002, and this is a far better defensive era than the 80's, and slightly better than the 90's.

RonRon wrote:

smackeddog wrote:According to the Bulls board, Jimmy Butler has been coming back to earth- his stats don't look that much different, but I haven't heard or seen anything of him in weeks/ Not sure if this makes him more available in the offseason- and would you still max him out as a slightly diminished force? Would you rather have him or Wes Mathews?

no question Jimmy Butler, his age/size and Mathewws has many scary injuries, I really like Matthews as a player and the way he plays on both ends, but Butler's versatility and ability to defend 3-4 position and play inside/out/pass/cut and with that size/speed/skill is quite rare to go with his work ethic/discipline

Now Kawaii Leanard or Jimmy Butler, that would be a tougher one

I would say Kawaii but it really depends on the roster, system, and fit with other players but Kawaii was MVP last year and his long reach, big hands, and improvement every year, AND NOW HIS POST GAME is coming along as he has been watching a lot of Jordan's post ups/fade aways

I think Butler (AT SG, he is just too big and strong for all SG's) works better with Gasol/Noah with Gasol gong outside/inside, everyone alternating
The Opponents Defense are daring/cheating makining Rose a scorer and it is taking the game away from everyone else as they are not a good defensive team without Noah's presence
That pick that Noah always sets with his ability to roll/finish and make the extra pass/hockey assist are missed with all his rebounding/defense/intangibles

Having chemistry issues playing when Rose plays, as they haven't played much toghether when Butler has improved his game in all areas since Rose's injuries the past 2-3years

Personally I think,
The offense should be run through Gasol/Butler/Noah, and Rose should come off the bench as a 6th man like Manu

both Gasol and Butler play GREAT whenever Rose sat out on back to backs and when he plays, they all have to sacrifice and have trouble developing chemistry right now with only 1 ball and 1 less rebounder/enforcer/shot blocker/ and everything that Noah brings like energy/setting picks, intangibles, ability to pass, defend 1v1 and help DEF

They are missing Dunleavy as well, his ability to spread the floor, high IQ, and using his size/length for both DEF and rebounding, fast breaks etc...

To be honest, I'd be delighted with either Wes or Jimmy- both are two way players, and tough, smart, gutsy players. It's a shame the way this season has gone- it was the worst case scenario for our chances of landing Gasol. Unfortunately I don't think Leonard was ever a possibility because he seems like a low key guy who loves the Spurs (plus they'd match whatever as Tim Duncan and Ginobli are retiring.