VCoug wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Can I ask at this point what the hell you are all whinging for? You all wanted us to tank and get a high pick, now we're doing. SUCK IT UP! You all wanted Shump and JR gone, now they are gone.

Do you want us to win more games this season?

Do you want us to lose more games this season and try and get as high a pick as possible?

I want us to pick the only strategy that ever works: Very efficiently using every penny of cap space. Right now, Melo plus 4 league min players costs almost the same as the entire Hawks or Spurs starting lineup.

Also, Melo turns 31 this season and whoever we draft is almost certainly going to take several years to develop. I don't believe our strategy has really changed, we're still looking at making a splash in free agency this Summer. We just happen to be tanking because Phil ****ed up so badly this Summer and we have no other choice.

CrushAlot wrote:

VCoug wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Can I ask at this point what the hell you are all whinging for? You all wanted us to tank and get a high pick, now we're doing. SUCK IT UP! You all wanted Shump and JR gone, now they are gone.

Do you want us to win more games this season?

Do you want us to lose more games this season and try and get as high a pick as possible?

I want us to pick the only strategy that ever works: Very efficiently using every penny of cap space. Right now, Melo plus 4 league min players costs almost the same as the entire Hawks or Spurs starting lineup.

Also, Melo turns 31 this season and whoever we draft is almost certainly going to take several years to develop. I don't believe our strategy has really changed, we're still looking at making a splash in free agency this Summer. We just happen to be tanking because Phil ****ed up so badly this Summer and we have no other choice.

Same age as Robinson when the Spurs got Duncan Maybe the Knicks really are following the Spurs model.

Dude what about Nique that year, come on stop reaching

F500ONE wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

VCoug wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Can I ask at this point what the hell you are all whinging for? You all wanted us to tank and get a high pick, now we're doing. SUCK IT UP! You all wanted Shump and JR gone, now they are gone.

Do you want us to win more games this season?

Do you want us to lose more games this season and try and get as high a pick as possible?

I want us to pick the only strategy that ever works: Very efficiently using every penny of cap space. Right now, Melo plus 4 league min players costs almost the same as the entire Hawks or Spurs starting lineup.

Also, Melo turns 31 this season and whoever we draft is almost certainly going to take several years to develop. I don't believe our strategy has really changed, we're still looking at making a splash in free agency this Summer. We just happen to be tanking because Phil ****ed up so badly this Summer and we have no other choice.

Same age as Robinson when the Spurs got Duncan Maybe the Knicks really are following the Spurs model.

Dude what about Nique that year, come on stop reaching

CrushAlot wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

VCoug wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Can I ask at this point what the hell you are all whinging for? You all wanted us to tank and get a high pick, now we're doing. SUCK IT UP! You all wanted Shump and JR gone, now they are gone.

Do you want us to win more games this season?

Do you want us to lose more games this season and try and get as high a pick as possible?

I want us to pick the only strategy that ever works: Very efficiently using every penny of cap space. Right now, Melo plus 4 league min players costs almost the same as the entire Hawks or Spurs starting lineup.

Also, Melo turns 31 this season and whoever we draft is almost certainly going to take several years to develop. I don't believe our strategy has really changed, we're still looking at making a splash in free agency this Summer. We just happen to be tanking because Phil ****ed up so badly this Summer and we have no other choice.

Same age as Robinson when the Spurs got Duncan Maybe the Knicks really are following the Spurs model.

Dude what about Nique that year, come on stop reaching

Where is the reach? Melo is actually younger than Robinson was.

That's not what we we're going for and Spurs

Had all their picks going forward, at the time neither were the Spurs

For a time they were trying to win, they signed Dominique

F500ONE wrote:

dk7th wrote:everything stems from his first "move." note that this tidbit comes under the part titled "what went wrong?" how do you seriously pursue "culture change" and retain this kind of employee with this kind of contract? seriously. this was a classic moment of disassociation on a collective scale, ie the other employees and the fanbase. the 5-36 record, this disaster of a season, is the result. the knicks can expect to have a nightmarish future.

this whole situation-- easily preventable-- screams bad karma and diminished opportunities and potentials.

You know how you said "What has been said can't be unsaid", well the contract Phil signed Melo to can't be unsigned. I'm interested in how Phil can get himself out of the Abyss. You'd think they would have talked up the Early and Thanasis as being great ROI from trade with Dallas. I'll wait on the Calderon catch. Phil's recovery starts with acquiring picks by the deadline if he doesn't, then he's pretty much toast. Even if all get gets are 2nd rounders.

Sure it can, if we make a good trade. Take off your blinders.

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:The problem I have with this and many other similar articles is the pessimistic tone.

The problem, nixluva, that you seem to ignore, even when it's shoved right in your face, is that this team and franchise needs a direction.

Philly has a direction. Tank and keep taking, amass assets, try to push forward their young talent and then try to get them to gel together while still on their rookie deals. Will it work? Will it not? Either way, it's a direction, the entire franchise is moving in the same direction from top to bottom. At least Philly fans can say they can see a plan in place that makes sense from a timetable and asset standpoint and how the league is structured in terms of the draft and free agency.

New York has NO DIRECTION. Tanking and rebuilding from the ground up is one thing. Trying to make a playoff push is another. Picking neither or picking one then ending up with the other by coincidence is not a plan. Melo makes this a treadmill team. The Chandler trade, even if it worked, would have made this a treadmill team. A team stuck on the fringes of that 8th playoff spot or that dreaded 9th spot with no real chance to get better.

You call people too negative but this is clearly a negative situation. Not making a choice is making a choice, often it's worse than picking Direction A or Direction B. At least in one of those cases, you have momentum and a trajectory and something to sell to your fans.

Tanking because your effort to make a push blew up in your face is not a sign of an organization that has a cohesive plan in place.

Nothing you conjure up fixes the timetable vs development vs assets problem nixluva. In order to build a roster around Melo, you need to use the draft. With no 2016 pick, and with picks actually needing time to develop, your "help" for Melo will arrive, if at all, when his contract ends and when he's out of what's left of his prime playing ability/years. Every other instance of getting him help on this spiraling franchise will likely mean a free agent overpay, which will doom the roster to the same kind of problems it's had for the last 15 years. Do you think the Dallas Cowboys really wanted to trade their only marketable and franchise player in Herschel Walker? They did it because of the assets vs development vs timetable issue.

You want to put a "label" on a type of tone? Well here it is son. You ignore things you don't want to hear or don't like. You don't fully understand the way the cap works or even consider what other people have to say unless it lines up to your viewpoint. You don't own any of the things you've said before previously. Then you talk down to everyone like they are stupid because they remember your needling hack job predictions. Then you blame everyone else when they have the audacity to have opinions of their own. I know an entire group of our population who act just like you. They are called women. The problem you have is you are in a room full of men, who think like men, and you act like a woman.

so i think you may have answered the question i posed to F5: you are basically saying the commitment to carmelo anthony has doomed this enterprise from the start, and it is because the talent acquisition and subsequent development of said talent will not properly sync up with the declining skills of the 124 million dollar albatross.

given this futility, which i agree with, what is the way out? or is giving melo the heave-ho the only solution?

Knicks1969 wrote:Phil biggest mistake this season was the 5 year contract he offered Fisher. You can always trade a player; but when it comes to a coach, if you fire him, you have to eat his contract. As terrible as this dude is, we have no choice but to keep him around for at least another season.

coaches are not part of the salary cap so only dolan takes a bath.

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

VCoug wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:The problem I have with this and many other similar articles is the pessimistic tone.

The problem, nixluva, that you seem to ignore, even when it's shoved right in your face, is that this team and franchise needs a direction.

Philly has a direction. Tank and keep taking, amass assets, try to push forward their young talent and then try to get them to gel together while still on their rookie deals. Will it work? Will it not? Either way, it's a direction, the entire franchise is moving in the same direction from top to bottom. At least Philly fans can say they can see a plan in place that makes sense from a timetable and asset standpoint and how the league is structured in terms of the draft and free agency.

New York has NO DIRECTION. Tanking and rebuilding from the ground up is one thing. Trying to make a playoff push is another. Picking neither or picking one then ending up with the other by coincidence is not a plan. Melo makes this a treadmill team. The Chandler trade, even if it worked, would have made this a treadmill team. A team stuck on the fringes of that 8th playoff spot or that dreaded 9th spot with no real chance to get better.

You call people too negative but this is clearly a negative situation. Not making a choice is making a choice, often it's worse than picking Direction A or Direction B. At least in one of those cases, you have momentum and a trajectory and something to sell to your fans.

Tanking because your effort to make a push blew up in your face is not a sign of an organization that has a cohesive plan in place.

Nothing you conjure up fixes the timetable vs development vs assets problem nixluva. In order to build a roster around Melo, you need to use the draft. With no 2016 pick, and with picks actually needing time to develop, your "help" for Melo will arrive, if at all, when his contract ends and when he's out of what's left of his prime playing ability/years. Every other instance of getting him help on this spiraling franchise will likely mean a free agent overpay, which will doom the roster to the same kind of problems it's had for the last 15 years. Do you think the Dallas Cowboys really wanted to trade their only marketable and franchise player in Herschel Walker? They did it because of the assets vs development vs timetable issue.

You want to put a "label" on a type of tone? Well here it is son. You ignore things you don't want to hear or don't like. You don't fully understand the way the cap works or even consider what other people have to say unless it lines up to your viewpoint. You don't own any of the things you've said before previously. Then you talk down to everyone like they are stupid because they remember your needling hack job predictions. Then you blame everyone else when they have the audacity to have opinions of their own. I know an entire group of our population who act just like you. They are called women. The problem you have is you are in a room full of men, who think like men, and you act like a woman.

We have direction. Plan A: tinker with the roster and try to make the playoffs, then try to recruit a top FA like Gasol. Didn't work out so we're onto Plan B (clear salary, tank for a top pick, build in piece meal fashion). Use the remains of this system to see which players can play the triangle and be our bench for next year. Is that really hard to understand? Sixers have no direction- they tank, draft, then want to trade the players they just drafted, so they can tank more and draft. That ain't direction.

and higher a mediocre player as a mediocre coach

So "tanking and drafting" counts as a direction for us but not for Philly? Regarding "trading drafted players," I don't think any team does that more than us.

Not to mention that Plan A was a complete, unmitigated disaster. Phil's tinkering that was supposed to make this a playoff team turned a 37-win team into a team on pace to win 10 games.

It happens- our problem in the past has always been never accepting that the plan has failed, and never having a contingency plan. A lot of GMing is luck- not everything work out. The Hawks planned to tank last year, the Craptors were ready to have a fire sale, then they started winning by accident. It's not just what course you plot, but how you change course too.

This is pathetic, the kinds of posts on here- for years its been "wwwaaaaaaah! We never rebuild, we never tank" Now we're doing that and most of you can't handle it.

Tanking teams tend not to have super max contract players already on their rosters though, unless the player missed most of the season. What we have now is an incoherent combination of tanking while somehow capitalizing on the remaining years of Melo's prime. I don't know how we're going to build a team that competes with teams like the Hawks and Spurs. Melo's making about $25 mil a year and their entire starting lineups are around $35 mil.

EXACTLY so bonn what is the way out of this long-term disaster (quasi-rhetorical question)?

Bonn1997 wrote:

VCoug wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

VCoug wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Can I ask at this point what the hell you are all whinging for? You all wanted us to tank and get a high pick, now we're doing. SUCK IT UP! You all wanted Shump and JR gone, now they are gone.

Do you want us to win more games this season?

Do you want us to lose more games this season and try and get as high a pick as possible?

I want us to pick the only strategy that ever works: Very efficiently using every penny of cap space. Right now, Melo plus 4 league min players costs almost the same as the entire Hawks or Spurs starting lineup.

Also, Melo turns 31 this season and whoever we draft is almost certainly going to take several years to develop. I don't believe our strategy has really changed, we're still looking at making a splash in free agency this Summer. We just happen to be tanking because Phil ****ed up so badly this Summer and we have no other choice.

Same age as Robinson when the Spurs got Duncan Maybe the Knicks really are following the Spurs model.

Except Melo is no David Robinson and I don't think there is a Tim Duncan in this draft.

And the Spurs were really bad because Robinson was out. We're really bad even with Melo on the court. They basically added Duncan to a team that would have been around .600 if healthy. We're adding a lottery pick to a the worst team in the league.

And when he came back they had a player who was 100 times better than Melo.

smackeddog wrote:Can I ask at this point what the hell you are all whinging for? You all wanted us to tank and get a high pick, now we're doing. SUCK IT UP! You all wanted Shump and JR gone, now they are gone.

Do you want us to win more games this season?

Do you want us to lose more games this season and try and get as high a pick as possible?

MELO

smackeddog wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Can I ask at this point what the hell you are all whinging for? You all wanted us to tank and get a high pick, now we're doing. SUCK IT UP! You all wanted Shump and JR gone, now they are gone.

Do you want us to win more games this season?

Do you want us to lose more games this season and try and get as high a pick as possible?

The point we're debating is the team

Doesn't know how to execute it's own plans

And very well could mess things up going forward

There are still important, pivotal decisions that can be made or not made

Contributing toward future success and we're still seeing

Head scratching things transpire or not transpire

Of course it could go wrong. But at this point what else can Phil do- you fire Fish now, then we win more games (the new coach bump), you scrap the triangle, you win more games just because occasionally players will get hot shooting the 3s. More wins= worse draft pick. We've cleared all the salary (apart from Calderon) that we can for now. You want Melo traded you have to wait until the offseason and pray Bulls do a S&T with Butler.

so now melo is tradable, is he? i'll believe it when i see it. not much use for 124 million dollar 30 year olds who don't defend the position or make plays for others.