TripleThreat wrote:

F500ONE wrote:So why wouldn't we trade a future first for $7-8mil of cap space

What Iman Shumpert cost to acquire to start has no bearing on his value now.

Whatever laptop/desktop you are typing your posts on now, you paid X amount of dollars for, but the reality is it's worth Y amount of dollars right now. Players in any sport appreciate and/or more likely depreciate in value accordingly.

Iman Shumpert and JR Smith were SUNK COSTS to the NY Knicks. You can write them off as poor decisions or poor usage of assets or whatnot, but in any case, they were personnel moves that simply didn't work out for the team.

A first round draft pick, to move one, forms a question of OPPORTUNITY COST. Also moving veterans off your roster so that younger players have a chance to get minutes answers a question of potential opportunity cost for each roster spot and each available minute of playing time that Knicks have to distribute.

Sending a SUNK COST out the door is one thing.

Sending a question of OPPORTUNITY COST is a whole different animal.

And here's the kicker, while NBA Draft lottery reform was voted down this year, it's clear that Adam Silver is pushing for and many of the owners are pushing for, true draft lottery reform. 2018 is a LONG WAY off in time relative to the sports world, and until the league settles the question of lottery reform and until the Knicks can prove they can move the needle as a winning team, there is NO REASON to jettison future first round picks. You could be pushing out a potential Top 3 pick or even a future No#1 overall pick.

Teams that win CONSISTENTLY in the league, esp in the playoffs, do so, in part, because the core of their roster has gelled. Meaning in critical moments, during the end of the shot clock or under pressure or coming from behind and on the road and hurting, the players are aware of each other's nuances and strengths and tendencies. It's the kind of SYNERGY you'll see on elite NFL offensive lines. A group together, working as a team, moving as a unit in harmony, with efficiency, without words or hesitation. You can only do that with guy who have played together a while and you can only build those years together cost wise with COST CONTROLLED YEARS, which means rookie contracts, which means DEVELOPING DRAFT PICKS.

You cannot keep gutting your draft picks and hope to build this needed SYNERGY between players, that help them play as a cohesive and unstoppable unit. That's the difference between a collection of individual mercenaries ( what the Knicks have tried before to assemble) and a true functioning TEAM playing together.

I understand sunkcost TT you're preaching to the choir here

What I do is use a recent material trail to build the argument around it

Most fans still believed Shumpert had 1round pick value before being shipped out the window

At least they held out hope in his return he'd play himself into this value before Feb

The reality said it wasn't, Fans were outraged at the idea we'd send Felton and Shump for Lowry

Last year, they balked at the idea of receiving a low 1st from OKC this past summer

They balked at the idea of sending Shumpert and Ray to

The Clippers for Collison and fillers

Some fans still remained he's a better player than THJR

Some fans now are suggesting trading THJR and trying to get back a 1st

Nevertheless I provided even more recent material of what 1st rounders

Are going for, which as of present aren't much especially those 3-4yrs down the road

If all they're going to get you as of today is Dion Waiters and Mozgov and Brandan Wright and Jeff Green

Then I think some of us or overestimating their value

Does a franchise like us hold them in higher regard because of bare cupboards and past history

Sure but once again Phil if he's what he's cracked up to be 2018 we'll be a team like the Mavs-OKC-Rockets-Memphis-Cleveland

Trading away 1st round picks to dump salary or to acquire SUNK COST, you may say well we're not there yet so no need to rush

I'll concede to it but we've also never been in a place where we can clear well above $30mil in cap space

You can't have it both ways here and for the record I bet

My estimation of 1st round picks being close to $7-9mil in cap space value

Is closer to being spot on than it being off

By the man who told you

That he does more pushups

Than Melo.

'nuff said.

foosballnick wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

foosballnick wrote:
One more time.....the Knicks already have significant cap flexibility going into this off-season. There is no reason to trade another asset (1st Round Pick) away at this time for $7 million in cap space for next year. If there comes a time where they need that $7 million, you way the potential value of that 1st rounder vs the target player you are trying to acquire. In the meantime you try to improve Calderone's value and move him through other means.

The Mozgov trade was reactionary and done out of need for the Cavs - who are in "Win Now" mode. This type of trade will generally yield a higher return for the receiving team since there is a sense of desperation from the other team.

Not sure how you extrapolate that there is no confidence in Phil based on people not wanting to give up a 2018 #1 for nothing except $7 mil of cap space. The reality is that you are grandstanding that the Knicks should make an impulsive move right now, when there is in fact no pressing need to do so at this time.

There isn't much difference in $23 - 29 mil of cap space either

Not for the players we're going after or who will be available for us to go after

Keep trying to talk yourself into what Phil did with Cleveland was necessary

Phil would have told Fisher play J.R. sparingly once Shump comes back

We're not really trying to win games and trade Shump all by himself at the

Deadline for something greater than a 2019 2nd round pick

So if going for nearly $30mil in cap space was cool then go for $37mil

It's not teams have a chance to do this all the time you know

You say you understand the meaning of Sunk Cost in the post above to TT - and then you post this which shows that you seem to not be able to understand the concept.

Phil traded Shump and JR away for future Cap Space..........Shump and JR represented sunk cost with declining values. Shump was injured again, so whatever anyone thought he would bring last year had declined further. JR although physically talented was likely a disruption and perhaps a liability to what Phil and Fisher are trying to accomplish in regards to the triangle. Phil had an opportunity to move sunk assets that he felt no further use for and traded them.

The 2018 First Round pick represents opportunity cost. It's value will fluctuate given the circumstances. There is no need to trade this pick at this time as there are not currently other factors (such as player disruption) that create a greater need to move the asset.

No I understand SUNK COST nice try you[Foos]

That's why I anchored the futuristic opportunity cost pick to SUNK COST[Calderon]

To create Opportunity Cost in Free Agency either 2015 or 2016

But happy to hear fans like you are ecstatic in tying up

Well over $20+mil in the backcourt for the next 2yrs

foosballnick wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

foosballnick wrote:
One more time.....the Knicks already have significant cap flexibility going into this off-season. There is no reason to trade another asset (1st Round Pick) away at this time for $7 million in cap space for next year. If there comes a time where they need that $7 million, you way the potential value of that 1st rounder vs the target player you are trying to acquire. In the meantime you try to improve Calderone's value and move him through other means.

The Mozgov trade was reactionary and done out of need for the Cavs - who are in "Win Now" mode. This type of trade will generally yield a higher return for the receiving team since there is a sense of desperation from the other team.

Not sure how you extrapolate that there is no confidence in Phil based on people not wanting to give up a 2018 #1 for nothing except $7 mil of cap space. The reality is that you are grandstanding that the Knicks should make an impulsive move right now, when there is in fact no pressing need to do so at this time.

There isn't much difference in $23 - 29 mil of cap space either

Not for the players we're going after or who will be available for us to go after

Keep trying to talk yourself into what Phil did with Cleveland was necessary

Phil would have told Fisher play J.R. sparingly once Shump comes back

We're not really trying to win games and trade Shump all by himself at the

Deadline for something greater than a 2019 2nd round pick

So if going for nearly $30mil in cap space was cool then go for $37mil

It's not teams have a chance to do this all the time you know

You say you understand the meaning of Sunk Cost in the post above to TT - and then you post this which shows that you seem to not be able to understand the concept.

Phil traded Shump and JR away for future Cap Space..........Shump and JR represented sunk cost with declining values. Shump was injured again, so whatever anyone thought he would bring last year had declined further. JR although physically talented was likely a disruption and perhaps a liability to what Phil and Fisher are trying to accomplish in regards to the triangle. Phil had an opportunity to move sunk assets that he felt no further use for and traded them.

The 2018 First Round pick represents opportunity cost. It's value will fluctuate given the circumstances. There is no need to trade this pick at this time as there are not currently other factors (such as player disruption) that create a greater need to move the asset.

No I understand SUNK COST nice try you[Foos]

That's why I anchored the futuristic opportunity cost pick to SUNK COST[Calderon]

To create Opportunity Cost in Free Agency either 2015 or 2016

But happy to hear fans like you are ecstatic in tying up

Well over $20+mil in the backcourt for the next 2yrs

The typical tactic of someone who has not presented a sound argument during a debate is to create a straw man or present a misleading statement that has no bearing on the current discussion as you have done here.

1) "Fans Like You" - is a subjective statement that has no meaning to this discussion - nor does my happiness or lack thereof

2) The 2015 NBA Free Agency Period does not start until July 1 - so there is no current opportunity cost equatable to the $7 million you are claiming needs to be immediately freed up. The opportunity cost will form based on the situational need - in regards to the Knicks needing an extra $7 million or not to sign someone after July 1, 2015.

3) Your comment "tying up well over $20 million in the backcourt for the next 2 years" is false. Calderon's salary for this year is already a sunk cost in terms of signing free agents in 2015. His salary for the next two years is $15.1 Million combined. Prigoni's salary for next year is $1.7 million. THJ's salary is $1.3 million. Those are the only current backcourt players with committed salaries beyond this year. Combined they represent $10.4 Mil toward the Cap in 2015-16 and $7.7 Mil towards the Cap in 2016-17. Even if you replace all of them, the Knicks will still have to sign other players to take their spots and assume Salary Cap Space.

4) You claim that a 2018 First Round pick is worth $7 - $9 million in cap space....so what is the reason you want to trade it now, 6 months prior to free agency? What value does that give you now? The value of moving players such as JR and Shump was that other younger potential replacements can be evaluated for the future....there does not seem to be an inherent value of trading a pick right now.

Prigioni's contract for next season is a team option. I believe only $300,000 counts against the cap if he is waived.

foosballnick wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

foosballnick wrote:
One more time.....the Knicks already have significant cap flexibility going into this off-season. There is no reason to trade another asset (1st Round Pick) away at this time for $7 million in cap space for next year. If there comes a time where they need that $7 million, you way the potential value of that 1st rounder vs the target player you are trying to acquire. In the meantime you try to improve Calderone's value and move him through other means.

The Mozgov trade was reactionary and done out of need for the Cavs - who are in "Win Now" mode. This type of trade will generally yield a higher return for the receiving team since there is a sense of desperation from the other team.

Not sure how you extrapolate that there is no confidence in Phil based on people not wanting to give up a 2018 #1 for nothing except $7 mil of cap space. The reality is that you are grandstanding that the Knicks should make an impulsive move right now, when there is in fact no pressing need to do so at this time.

There isn't much difference in $23 - 29 mil of cap space either

Not for the players we're going after or who will be available for us to go after

Keep trying to talk yourself into what Phil did with Cleveland was necessary

Phil would have told Fisher play J.R. sparingly once Shump comes back

We're not really trying to win games and trade Shump all by himself at the

Deadline for something greater than a 2019 2nd round pick

So if going for nearly $30mil in cap space was cool then go for $37mil

It's not teams have a chance to do this all the time you know

You say you understand the meaning of Sunk Cost in the post above to TT - and then you post this which shows that you seem to not be able to understand the concept.

Phil traded Shump and JR away for future Cap Space..........Shump and JR represented sunk cost with declining values. Shump was injured again, so whatever anyone thought he would bring last year had declined further. JR although physically talented was likely a disruption and perhaps a liability to what Phil and Fisher are trying to accomplish in regards to the triangle. Phil had an opportunity to move sunk assets that he felt no further use for and traded them.

The 2018 First Round pick represents opportunity cost. It's value will fluctuate given the circumstances. There is no need to trade this pick at this time as there are not currently other factors (such as player disruption) that create a greater need to move the asset.

No I understand SUNK COST nice try you[Foos]

That's why I anchored the futuristic opportunity cost pick to SUNK COST[Calderon]

To create Opportunity Cost in Free Agency either 2015 or 2016

But happy to hear fans like you are ecstatic in tying up

Well over $20+mil in the backcourt for the next 2yrs

The typical tactic of someone who has not presented a sound argument during a debate is to create a straw man or present a misleading statement that has no bearing on the current discussion as you have done here.

1) "Fans Like You" - is a subjective statement that has no meaning to this discussion - nor does my happiness or lack thereof

2) The 2015 NBA Free Agency Period does not start until July 1 - so there is no current opportunity cost equatable to the $7 million you are claiming needs to be immediately freed up. The opportunity cost will form based on the situational need - in regards to the Knicks needing an extra $7 million or not to sign someone after July 1, 2015.

3) Your comment "tying up well over $20 million in the backcourt for the next 2 years" is false. Calderon's salary for this year is already a sunk cost in terms of signing free agents in 2015. His salary for the next two years is $15.1 Million combined. Prigoni's salary for next year is $1.7 million. THJ's salary is $1.3 million. Those are the only current backcourt players with committed salaries beyond this year. Combined they represent $10.4 Mil toward the Cap in 2015-16 and $7.7 Mil towards the Cap in 2016-17. Even if you replace all of them, the Knicks will still have to sign other players to take their spots and assume Salary Cap Space.

4) You claim that a 2018 First Round pick is worth $7 - $9 million in cap space....so what is the reason you want to trade it now, 6 months prior to free agency? What value does that give you now? The value of moving players such as JR and Shump was that other younger potential replacements can be evaluated for the future....there does not seem to be an inherent value of trading a pick right now.

There was no opportunity cost to trade J.R. now

He doesn't have to play simple as that

You play the youth in front of him

Shump was hurt so he wasn't holding anyone's playing time back

But Phil said there was opportunity cost in dumping Smith's contract for 2015 cap flex

Not opportunity cost in continuing to play a struggling THJR

We are interested in signing a point guard, Reggie Jackson's name

Surfaced during trade discussions one player who we were hoping to acquire from the trade

You can play coy and be naive in thinking the free agent addition of a point guard this summer

Won't place us near the $20mil mark or more if you want, no one would buy your ignorance here

Not of course unless Phil whiffs and whiffs and whiffs which would only resurrect your dead argument

But place us as a franchise in a very precarious situation

Phil didn't create all this cap space to not address the back court, in particular the point guard position

We're currently shopping Calderon[probably near impossible to trade unless he's anchored to some opportunity]

But what it tells the cloudy mind in you, Phil doesn't like the current point guard situation

Calderon more than likely remains here another yr added to the free agent signing

The value in trading for someone like Chandler would also spell

$125million Bionic Man who needs surgery on his knee until free agency arrives

F500ONE wrote:

There was no opportunity cost to trade J.R. now He doesn't have to play simple as that You play the youth in front of him Shump was hurt so he wasn't holding anyone's playing time back But Phil said there was opportunity cost in dumping Smith's contract for 2015 cap flex Not opportunity cost in continuing to play a struggling THJR We are interested in signing a point guard, Reggie Jackson's name Surfaced during trade discussions one player who we were hoping to acquire from the trade You can play coy and be naive in thinking the free agent addition of a point guard this summer Won't place us near the $20mil mark or more if you want, no one would buy your ignorance here Not of course unless Phil whiffs and whiffs and whiffs which would only resurrect your dead argument But place us as a franchise in a very precarious situation Phil didn't create all this cap space to not address the back court, in particular the point guard position We're currently shopping Calderon[probably near impossible to trade unless he's anchored to some opportunity]
But what it tells the cloudy mind in you, Phil doesn't like the current point guard situation Calderon more than likely remains here another yr added to the free agent signing
The value in trading for someone like Chandler would also spell $125million Bionic Man who needs surgery on his knee until free agency arrives

None of this Gobbly Gook means anything relative to the discussion or question of why you are advocating the urgency to trade the 2018 1st Round Pick immediately.

As I stated in a previous post - my guess is that you are here to troll/bate other posters with a continued questionable narrative that just does not stop, even when your opinion is silly.

PS - your other tactic.....when losing and in doubt, bring up Melo into the discussion.

F500ONE wrote:
But since he's swinging for the fences 2015 free agency

Then pick up the 36oz bat hands in, head down, eyes focused go for it

Is Phil swinging for the fences in 2015? At least in the presser the other day he specifically said that the team had never had a complete teardown/build up but always opted to try to fit pieces together that didnt fit and that that caused teams where nothing ever fit right. I wont argue there. The Knicks have been trying that approach, and failing, for a long time. Anyway, he then went on to say that the team going forward in 2015 free agency and beyond would be put together piecemeal and thus that fans and the media should not expect any big signings but smaller deals for players who fit the system and with each other. Thats a pretty explicit statement that Phil knows none of the big names are coming (pretty obvious) and that he will use the space to try to build a genuine team (we hope--but hey at least that's the spin instead of more fantasizing for big name players).

So why is Phil throwing cold water on the idea of "swinging for the fences" if that's what he is planning on doing? It doesn't seem like something you'd want to lie about now only to have it come back to haunt you. What's the purpose?

Foye is a very good shooter that if recovered would fit in the triangle as a PG/SG very well
Affalo

Hickson
Darrell Arther