mreinman wrote:length over girth

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:Great thread... I think we should we should focus on being more like Morey who really uses metrics and advanced stats.

Oh wait...

You have a strange Morey obsession. True he uses the metrics and has a pretty good team but now every team except the Magic and Bobcats has joined the 21st century and has an analytics department. The field has moved to complex questions about *how* to best use the metrics. You seem stuck simply disparaging the metrics.

Ive probably mentioned Morey 3x total on this board.. so obsession?
not one bit. I think these stats have a place. However they are secondary to traditional, and that is a fact. Also folks on this board with their agendas talk out both sides of their mouths because the same GMs who are championed by the UK metrics movement put together pretty posters like the one below. Do you not see that?

Some people use the metrics very well, others make poor judgments. I'm not going give name but some people using the eyeball test have been 180 degrees off in their assessments too. You haven't provided any evidence that the metrics are only of secondary use, and there aren't any straightforward comparisons of the relative merits of non-quantifiable information and the analytics. They're both very useful and there's really no point in comparing the too against each other. It's like asking whether the length or the width is more important for a rectangle.

Bonn you are clearly obsessed with the 'eyeball' test. Not all decisions are quantifiable with stats. Surely you must realize this?

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:Great thread... I think we should we should focus on being more like Morey who really uses metrics and advanced stats.

Oh wait...

You have a strange Morey obsession. True he uses the metrics and has a pretty good team but now every team except the Magic and Bobcats has joined the 21st century and has an analytics department. The field has moved to complex questions about *how* to best use the metrics. You seem stuck simply disparaging the metrics.

Ive probably mentioned Morey 3x total on this board.. so obsession?
not one bit. I think these stats have a place. However they are secondary to traditional, and that is a fact. Also folks on this board with their agendas talk out both sides of their mouths because the same GMs who are championed by the UK metrics movement put together pretty posters like the one below. Do you not see that?

Some people use the metrics very well, others make poor judgments. I'm not going give name but some people using the eyeball test have been 180 degrees off in their assessments too. You haven't provided any evidence that the metrics are only of secondary use, and there aren't any straightforward comparisons of the relative merits of non-quantifiable information and the analytics. They're both very useful and there's really no point in comparing the too against each other. It's like asking whether the length or the width is more important for a rectangle.

same with the eyeball test no Bonn? Was Kobe drafted with because of advanced stats? Or did Jerry West "see" something special? It goes both ways.

Bonn you are clearly obsessed with the 'eyeball' test. Not all decisions are quantifiable with stats. Surely you must realize this?

They were among the first half-dozen teams to enter into a single-affiliation arrangement in the D-League, and they’ll own their own team in White Plains, N.Y., starting next season. They were an early adopter of the SportVU data-tracking camera system, and they have smart people who want to use it in smart ways. They check off a lot of the clichéd “smart team” boxes we use to lionize the Spurs and Thunder. They gave Jeremy Lin his NBA chance. There is an infrastructure here.

The problem over the years wasn't the scouting staff. It was DOLAN. He's the one that pushed in and forced deals. It was Dolan's meddling that messed up this team. Now Phil has to clean up the mess. Some here assume that Phil doesn't respect Analytics but they really have no way of proving that at this early juncture. Here's what I do know. Phil's teams have been efficient, tho not always the most efficient, but more importantly they won. There's more to it than just pure numbers. He knows that first hand and we need to let him show what he can do in this job.

2010-11  6th Offensive Efficiency - 6th Defensive Efficiency
2009-10  11th - 4th   Finals
2008-09  3rd  - 6th   Finals
2007-08  3rd  - 5th   Finals
2006-07  7th  - 24th
2005-06  8th  - 15th  
2003-04  6th  - 8th   Finals
2002-03  4th  - 19th  
2001-02  2nd  - 7th   Finals
2000-01  2nd  - 21st  Finals
1999-00  5th  - 1st   Finals

Bonn1997 wrote:

F500ONE wrote:Bonn what are your thoughts on the Milwaukee Bucks using Facial Coding Analytics

I posted a thread on it and you had nothing to offer there

FACs has been useful in many areas. It seems reasonable but I haven't really read about it for use in the NBA

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=48915

“Makes teams better” is fast-becoming both an essential ingredient to getting hired and a mission-critical skill-set worth measuring. After spending the weekend at the annual MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference, “quantifying chemistry”—identifying those talents, attributes and combinatorial skills that make a team play so much better than a group of talented individuals—has clearly become the new Holy Grail of sports analytics.

How do you identify, blend, develop, train and coach a mix of talents into wholes measurably greater than the sum of their parts? What combinatorial characteristics of high-performers empower everyone else to over-perform?

That’s the “franchise of the future” challenge haunting sports’ brightest minds and biggest wallets.

Of course, identifying Moneyball-like metrics and boosting individual performance remains vital. But this was the first time attending the event where so many of the top-tier athletic luminaries—particularly coaches and managers—spoke so wistfully and ambitiously about the analytic alchemy that can turn teammates into champions.

“The next step in analytics will be how to build chemistry,” asserted Phil Jackson, the former Chicago Bulls and Los Angeles coach who’s won the most NBA championships in history. As an 11-time champion, says Jackson, he was always looking for “what creates the bonds” between players that can meaningfully separate them from their competition. Jackson was famous—or notorious—for encouraging “mindfulness” training and meditation to get his players in harmony. But, at his Building a Dynasty panel, Jackson stressed that he was always open to numbers and analyses that offered actionable insight into getting his teams to play better together. Motivating individual players such as Shaquile O’Neill or Kobe Bryant was one thing, he observed, but identifying those ingredients that got everyone motivated both during practice and game time was a qualitatively and quantitatively different challenge.

“We should be able to do much more now,” Jackson said.

To those who have doubted Phil commitment to this job and winning, I think it's clear from Phil's many statements that he's ALL ABOUT WINNING. He's use whatever he can to help him be more successful at creating winning teams. He's always been interested in finding new ways to inspire and improve his teams. He was at an Analytics Conference speaking, for goodness sakes. The New York Knicks Staff is filled with guys who believe in this stuff. Now we have to let them get to work without Dolan's interference.

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:Phil can say whatever he wants but as long as I am seeing his team shoot long midrange jumper after jumper, I am not sold on him buying into analytics

And perhaps he should have his team guard the 3.

Stop making this all about how this roster is handling things. It's nuts to look at this team as the best example of what a Phil Jackson team will look like rather than all his other teams which clearly didn't have all the issues we have with this team. You're acting like you've never seen a Phil Jackson team play before this one. It wasn't that long ago that he was coaching. 2010-11 wasn't an entirely different NBA.

I really can't believe some of you guys take on this subject. You're gonna hold Phil to task based on this transition roster and not give him a chance to actually build the team fully according to his designs? This is not the team he's going to be remembered for in NY. It was NEVER intended to be the team we always knew he was going to eventually build, once we dropped all the contracts of players we don't want this year.

Carmelo Anthony  $22,875,000
Jose Calderon    $7,402,812
JR Smith         $6,399,750
Iman Shumpert    $3,898,691 Qualifying Offer
Pablo Prigioni   $1,734,572
Tim Hardaway Jr  $1,304,520 
Cleanthony Early $845,059
                 $40,561,713

It's going to be very interesting to see what Phil does with this team moving forward. We have to have some patience tho.

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:Phil can say whatever he wants but as long as I am seeing his team shoot long midrange jumper after jumper, I am not sold on him buying into analytics

And perhaps he should have his team guard the 3.

Stop making this all about how this roster is handling things. It's nuts to look at this team as the best example of what a Phil Jackson team will look like rather than all his other teams which clearly didn't have all the issues we have with this team. You're acting like you've never seen a Phil Jackson team play before this one. It wasn't that long ago that he was coaching. 2010-11 wasn't an entirely different NBA.

I really can't believe some of you guys take on this subject. You're gonna hold Phil to task based on this transition roster and not give him a chance to actually build the team fully according to his designs? This is not the team he's going to be remembered for in NY. It was NEVER intended to be the team we always knew he was going to eventually build, once we dropped all the contracts of players we don't want this year.

Carmelo Anthony  $22,875,000
Jose Calderon    $7,402,812
JR Smith         $6,399,750
Iman Shumpert    $3,898,691 Qualifying Offer
Pablo Prigioni   $1,734,572
Tim Hardaway Jr  $1,304,520 
Cleanthony Early $845,059
                 $40,561,713

It's going to be very interesting to see what Phil does with this team moving forward. We have to have some patience tho.

You seem to just ignore that he made bad decisions and accidentally turned a .450 team into a .150 team. It would be ridiculous to say we have enough data to fully judge Phil but it's even more ridiculous to say we should just ignore all the information we have so far. It is early but so far he's been like a guy driving a snow plow that accidentally puts more snow on the road.
IMO you can't complain about people who feel using the available data is better than not using it even if it's only a little amount of data.

If Phil wanted to win at all costs this year he wasn't trying very hard. They clearly decided to force the team to play within the system in order to see exactly what these players would do in this system. That has exposed many players and in my opinion it's been a cleansing experience that made it crystal clear what the true nature of the team is. But here's the thing, we aren't doomed to stay in this situation. Phil will be able to clear the decks and bring in players that will be better for this franchise.

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:Phil can say whatever he wants but as long as I am seeing his team shoot long midrange jumper after jumper, I am not sold on him buying into analytics

And perhaps he should have his team guard the 3.

Stop making this all about how this roster is handling things. It's nuts to look at this team as the best example of what a Phil Jackson team will look like rather than all his other teams which clearly didn't have all the issues we have with this team. You're acting like you've never seen a Phil Jackson team play before this one. It wasn't that long ago that he was coaching. 2010-11 wasn't an entirely different NBA.

I really can't believe some of you guys take on this subject. You're gonna hold Phil to task based on this transition roster and not give him a chance to actually build the team fully according to his designs? This is not the team he's going to be remembered for in NY. It was NEVER intended to be the team we always knew he was going to eventually build, once we dropped all the contracts of players we don't want this year.

Carmelo Anthony  $22,875,000
Jose Calderon    $7,402,812
JR Smith         $6,399,750
Iman Shumpert    $3,898,691 Qualifying Offer
Pablo Prigioni   $1,734,572
Tim Hardaway Jr  $1,304,520 
Cleanthony Early $845,059
                 $40,561,713

It's going to be very interesting to see what Phil does with this team moving forward. We have to have some patience tho.

You seem to just ignore that he made bad decisions and accidentally turned a .450 team into a .150 team. It would be ridiculous to say we have enough data to fully judge Phil but it's even more ridiculous to say we should just ignore all the information we have so far. It is early but so far he's been like a guy driving a snow plow that accidentally puts more snow on the road.
IMO you can't complain about people who feel using the available data is better than not using it even if it's only a little amount of data.

I'm complaining about a lack of reason being used. This team at best was only hoping to make the playoffs which wasn't going to change the point I made above in terms of the roster being remade after this season. This is and always was just a transition roster. It's stupid to use it as a means of predicting what Phil will do.

If Phil wanted to win at all costs this year he wasn't trying very hard. They clearly decided to force the team to play within the system in order to see exactly what these players would do in this system. That has exposed many players and in my opinion it's been a cleansing experience that made it crystal clear what the true nature of the team is. But here's the thing, we aren't doomed to stay in this situation. Phil will be able to clear the decks and bring in players that will be better for this franchise.

Then how come so many here thought this was a good team and definitely not a lottery-team/transition year before the season? Either it wasn't intended to be one or these individuals are really clueless.
I've never heard of a team with an intended transition year that looked like a .600+ 50 win team to its fan base at the start of the season.

Phil and Fish decided that they would stick with the system regardless of record and that showed that they were more concerned with development and learning the truth about the roster, than they were interested in the playoffs at all costs. Phil has let it burn rather than put the fire out with a change of style or a roster move to try and save the season. This was a transition roster and nothing more. Phil said that they had to protect their future, which in most cases means abandoning the present.

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:Phil can say whatever he wants but as long as I am seeing his team shoot long midrange jumper after jumper, I am not sold on him buying into analytics

And perhaps he should have his team guard the 3.

Stop making this all about how this roster is handling things. It's nuts to look at this team as the best example of what a Phil Jackson team will look like rather than all his other teams which clearly didn't have all the issues we have with this team. You're acting like you've never seen a Phil Jackson team play before this one. It wasn't that long ago that he was coaching. 2010-11 wasn't an entirely different NBA.

I really can't believe some of you guys take on this subject. You're gonna hold Phil to task based on this transition roster and not give him a chance to actually build the team fully according to his designs? This is not the team he's going to be remembered for in NY. It was NEVER intended to be the team we always knew he was going to eventually build, once we dropped all the contracts of players we don't want this year.

Carmelo Anthony  $22,875,000
Jose Calderon    $7,402,812
JR Smith         $6,399,750
Iman Shumpert    $3,898,691 Qualifying Offer
Pablo Prigioni   $1,734,572
Tim Hardaway Jr  $1,304,520 
Cleanthony Early $845,059
                 $40,561,713

It's going to be very interesting to see what Phil does with this team moving forward. We have to have some patience tho.

You seem to just ignore that he made bad decisions and accidentally turned a .450 team into a .150 team. It would be ridiculous to say we have enough data to fully judge Phil but it's even more ridiculous to say we should just ignore all the information we have so far. It is early but so far he's been like a guy driving a snow plow that accidentally puts more snow on the road.
IMO you can't complain about people who feel using the available data is better than not using it even if it's only a little amount of data.

I'm complaining about a lack of reason being used. This team at best was only hoping to make the playoffs which wasn't going to change the point I made above in terms of the roster being remade after this season. This is and always was just a transition roster. It's stupid to use it as a means of predicting what Phil will do.

If Phil wanted to win at all costs this year he wasn't trying very hard. They clearly decided to force the team to play within the system in order to see exactly what these players would do in this system. That has exposed many players and in my opinion it's been a cleansing experience that made it crystal clear what the true nature of the team is. But here's the thing, we aren't doomed to stay in this situation. Phil will be able to clear the decks and bring in players that will be better for this franchise.

Then how come so many here thought this was a good team and definitely not a lottery-team/transition year before the season? Either it wasn't intended to be one or these individuals are really clueless.
I've never heard of a team with an intended transition year that looked like a .600+ 50 win team to its fan base at the start of the season.

Phil was expecting at least 45 wins since that is what he said it would take in order to get into the playoffs. A few of us said possibly 50 wins. No one is ever saying the Knicks were a LOCK to win that many games, so lets not try and make it sound like people thought this team couldn't fail under any circumstances. They needed good health and for everyone to fully buy in. That didn't happen.

Phil and Fish decided that they would stick with the system regardless of record and that showed that they were more concerned with development and learning the truth about the roster, than they were interested in the playoffs at all costs. Phil has let it burn rather than put the fire out with a change of style or a roster move to try and save the season. This was a transition roster and nothing more. Phil said that they had to protect their future, which in most cases means abandoning the present.

If your searching for a confession allow me: I was dead wrong about this team. I thought they could tread water. They cant. Happy?