1- MAX CONTRACTS, in general a max contract could range anywhere from 12m to as high as about 30m

So essenstially CA as a veteran max player could earn nearly 2x as much as another max player or over 2x what Curry is currently making

2- We lack talent period, Phil Jackson took over a team that traded nearly all of their future 2nd round picks along with the 2016 1st round pick and 2 other 2nd round picks for AB

3- Not blaming CA, however, he is not a very good defensive player, or a leader, however, he is a high volume scorer
Unfortunately he is being paid to be all of the above and with our lack of assets to improve, it is hard to continue to add talent
While players like Paul Millsap, Monta Ellis, Al Jefferson, and many others, make about 1/3 of what CA makes, so with our lack of talent, we simply cannot afford to build a roster that way
Look at how Houston owns all of their owns picks outside of the pick they sent to unload Lin
Look at all these teams that are collecting as many draft picks as possible, they will rebound and eventually get much better
They will make strike out and make some poor draft selections but will also luck out and develop some good players as well
The more picks you have the more you chances you have to contruct a team at minimum value while using the salary cap to improve the roster before the rookie contracts expire and they will get paid
So $$$$ isn't the issue for Knicks but their unwillingness to accumulate draft picks and continue to go after big name players is one
Lets be honest, even if we did draft Curry, he would have been traded for CA with his injury concerns every season like we did with Camby/Nene and a 1st rounder and McDyess

Look at how Dallas used minimum assets for Rhondo
Though I question how Rhondo will fit with Dallas since he is a liability on SHOOTING/SPACING and that has been one of strengths needed in Maverics system, especially for the PnR with Dirk

4- For lineups you could only have 1 weak OFF player and ONE weak DEFENSE player
Our team is currently constructed with players that are horrible on DEFENSE, being liabilities, or being horrible on OFFENSE, also a liability
Draft picks and collecting talent in the range of 3-5m contracts are very important
We don't have the highest IQ players and we any team that are contenders needs to be at least good on DEFENSE, for CA to be on this team and be a contender, I believe he has to be the worste DEFENDER on the KNICKS while we have a few Draymond Green type of glue players, Klay Thompson etc....
CA has to use his abilities to draw charges when he plays the 4, sometimes just go for the OFF rebounds for his team mates, and do more intangibles

So either way, when constructing a team, we could only have 1 weak player on the floor on OFF and/or DEF
In order to compensate for CA inabilities, we need very good 2 way players, and a leader
We need players that know how to play both on and off the ball
Most importantly we need a player at PF/C that has the ability to both initiate an offense and score in the post for the triangle to be successfull

5- TALENT and the ability to continue to improve the roster is always needed
I think it is pretty hard to be able to build a team around CA until the salaries go higher in 2017 summer and we don't know if CA will decline by then either
While all these other teams will also improve with picks, MLE's, on top of a core playing together

We first need to assemble a roster then build chemistry, I am afraid by then CA would get injured and be on a downhill especially with the media in NYK

I believe CA can be part of a contender however, he either must be the #2 option or even #3, or he is surrounded by a lot of talent like if he is on a team with Bulls, GS, Houston, etc
Picks are essential as assets to because they can easily outweigh their production, however, we need lots of talent, and we need a bunch of picks (as some will develop and some will not, some will have higher risk/reward)

In the end, they can be used to develop players, both role players or bigger roles, and be used as leverage to trade for other players
From the day we traded for CA and helped Denver save over 50 million in tax/salaries, we continued to morgatage our future and missed out, on top of it we missed out on acuiring on our MLE's
AB makes more than Lin and not cost any of our picks, he is overpaid but he still would be our 2nd/3rd best player on this team that has the ability to create easy baskets and facilitate with his ability to penetrate/high IQ

We don't even have a Danny Green type player/talent and we do not have a BIG 4 in Parker, Duncan, Ginobil, Kawaii
Heck we don't even have Diaw/Patty Mills/Corey Joseph type talents

We cannot build a team with 2-3 salaries unless they are all signed within the same year and take less
And even if so, we would still need the glue players/younger players like Cole/Chalmers/Mike Miller/Haslem/Battier/CHris Anderson type talents to make it work
CA isn't a facilitator or lock down defender, so it is very hard to FIT all that talent we need
It is best to part ways if we can send him out West for both CA and the NYK's, with the way he is forcing to play, I seriously fear an injury that would make him Allan Houston 2.0

TripleThreat wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:What I'm saying here is I believe that our current position is not as dire as TT points out.

Look at the Lakers last year.

See how they line up to many of the Knicks situations.

1) Star player is seen as a selfish shotjacking chucker who doesn't make team mates better nor plays defense
2) D'Antoni driven out
3) Fans banked on a "high draft pick" which they got Randle, but they didn't win the draft lottery.
4) Fans banked on "cap space" but no premium free agent wanted to sign there, even with max dollars offered.
5) Team had a history of trading away picks/missing on picks, roster was woefully short on talent
6) Free agent class in offseason was seen by many diehard homer fans as potential savior to talent problems
7) Team exists in a big market, with a big local TV deal, that has branding/destination appeal
8) Next best player is a PG who can't play defense and has injury woes
9) Idiot ownership seen as a massive long term problem

Did it all work out the way some Laker diehards hoped?

They ended up giving chunks of money to Jordan Hill and Nick Young. They got Randle, who got hurt. Their star player simply is a bad fit for team basketball. Free agents weren't flocking in droves as some had hoped/predicted.

Easy to say, get this guy, do this, expect that. But the reality tends to just not work out that way.

Do I think the situation is "dire"? I think the best course is the hardest course for the impatient fan, homer or not. Stop trading picks and stop taking on other teams player/contract problems. Build through the draft. The situation is ALREADY DIRE. The issue is breaking the negative/toxic habits from before to help the team on a better road. Ill fated hypothetical trades for Jrue Holiday, JaVale McGee and such, aren't the road to long term success. It's just a variation of what the Knicks have done to get into this hell into the first place.

I don't hate Briggs. He's a big boy and can wear his big boy pants here. I just have no problem telling him 95 percent of his personnel ideas aren't plausible/practical/likely. Most of the time, they ignore current market trends, tend to skirt over the issue of limited assets and universally treat many situations hinged on multiple contingencies too be seen as absolutes.

You know who took a lot of criticism? Jimmy Johnson when he took over the Cowboys. He didn't see a team that needed to gut itself on a wing and a prayer and false hopes to build around Herschel Walker. Instead, he accepted it was time to rebuild and traded his one star player to start the tough path of rebuilding. I'm sure lots of fans said, no no, let's build around Walker, it's not that bad, it just needs one or two quick fixes to get it going again.

Instead Johnson ate some growing pains, some mistakes, and stuck to his guns and rebuilt that team.

Some of you can hang onto Melo like some Dallas fans wanted to hang onto Herschel Walker. But it's just not going to work. Melo won't fit into a rebuilding plan and this is a team needing to rebuild.

The problem isn't you challenged Briggs ideas. Its that you felt the need to only quote a piece of his post purposely ignoring all that was said around that quote which added more context to what he was actually saying. You seem to have a trend of spinning information and or flat out posting false information not backed by facts yet want to challenge other posters for the lack of reality in there possibilities.

The Lakers at the end of the day landed Randle and ended up with 2 first round draft picks for the 2015 draft(taking Lin's contract for draft pick) as well as major cap space to try and land free agents again. Jordan Hill has a Team Option this summer. And Nick Young only makes 5.2mil. If no free agents sign they still are going to bring in another lottery pick and possibly another quality prospect with there 2nd first and early 2nd rd pick.

The trades for Jrue Holiday or Javale McGee aren't bad moves either. You take on Holiday and Gordan. Let Gordan expire the yr after creating cap space again while you hang on to Holiday who is a quality guard on decent contract. U end up with Holiday(24yrs old), a top 5 draft pick, Melo, and cap space again in 2016, and maybe one of the 3(Hardaway, Early, Thanasis) turns into a quality role player. The idea around adding Javale Mcgee was only to acquire another first round draft pick and maybe a 2nd as well. None of these moves are quick fixes and are actually pretty creative ways to add talent or assets.

Melo has a no trade clause at the moment, so until he decides he wants to be traded any scenario you bring up about trading Melo and going full rebuild is just as unrealistic as what you are challenging Briggs on. The best route Phil can take right now is to use the cap space to take on a Gerald Wallace & Javale Mcgee for draft picks. Trade Iman Shumpert & Hardaway Jr for draft picks as well. Then hit 2016 free agency hard. If the high lotto pick pans out. Free agents would be very interested in teaming with a for example Towns & Melo in 2016. Plus we would have the picks that we acquired for Wallace, Mcgee, Shump & Hardaway.

RonRon wrote:

Nalod wrote:
Things go right for all successful teams.
Just because some of you can't see it, does not mean it can't happen.
Most owners don't have the pockets deep enough, or patience to see a rebuild thru. IF this is Dolan after getting his "Phil", then we could be in for a prolonged cultural change that could last beyond Melo's contract! Phil is not a savvy GM quite yet but he has good scouts and Warkenten and Gabriel still on the payroll to help implement the vision.

sOme of you are banking on Melo way too much, and have thinking that even his trade value has plummeted in the last 30 games. HE scores big time and his defense is down, but thats also a symptom of a bad team. When your losing games, the +/- goes to hell.

They say the journey is sometimes better than the destination. Enjoy the process of seeing a new culture being built. Before that we are witness to the demolition of the other.

Keep reading the "Hate of 6" over and over it makes an impression on many of the faithful UKers.

Melo is not getting traded.

I beg to differ, Melo will put up a tantrum till he gets what he wants
Not saying he will do it right now but if we unable to build a decent roster with some quality players, he will surely not be happy if we start losing again

I wouldn't blame him either but to be realistic I don't think we can attract any major FA and talents to come to New York, especially because of the tax rate, media scrutiny, and lack of talent
And if he gets a major injury it would be ugly like Allan Houston 2.0 all over again
His constant injuries this year is not a good sign either, as injuries tend to affect other parts of the bodies and have multiple effects

One of the reasons he resigned with us was because he believed the Triangle was going to improve the team, it hasn't...
Also believed Tyson Chandler was going to help the team with his inabiltiy to catch passes and finish quite often, it hasn't
Phil Jackson got CA to take less money for THIS SUMMER, so if we fail to attract and build a roster, it would be last strike....

So if we can send him to a contender and he gets to make even more money on a team like Houston with no state tax, he surely would not be against it

RonRon wrote:

nixluva wrote:

RonRon wrote:

Nalod wrote:
Things go right for all successful teams.
Just because some of you can't see it, does not mean it can't happen.
Most owners don't have the pockets deep enough, or patience to see a rebuild thru. IF this is Dolan after getting his "Phil", then we could be in for a prolonged cultural change that could last beyond Melo's contract! Phil is not a savvy GM quite yet but he has good scouts and Warkenten and Gabriel still on the payroll to help implement the vision.

sOme of you are banking on Melo way too much, and have thinking that even his trade value has plummeted in the last 30 games. HE scores big time and his defense is down, but thats also a symptom of a bad team. When your losing games, the +/- goes to hell.

They say the journey is sometimes better than the destination. Enjoy the process of seeing a new culture being built. Before that we are witness to the demolition of the other.

Keep reading the "Hate of 6" over and over it makes an impression on many of the faithful UKers.

Melo is not getting traded.

I beg to differ, Melo will put up a tantrum till he gets what he wants
Not saying he will do it right now but if we unable to build a decent roster with some quality players, he will surely not be happy if we start losing again

I wouldn't blame him either but to be realistic I don't think we can attract any major FA and talents to come to New York, especially because of the tax rate, media scrutiny, and lack of talent
And if he gets a major injury it would be ugly like Allan Houston 2.0 all over again
His constant injuries this year is not a good sign either, as injuries tend to affect other parts of the bodies and have multiple effects

One of the reasons he resigned with us was because he believed the Triangle was going to improve the team, it hasn't...
Also believed Tyson Chandler was going to help the team with his inabiltiy to catch passes and finish quite often, it hasn't
Phil Jackson got CA to take less money for THIS SUMMER, so if we fail to attract and build a roster, it would be last strike....

So if we can send him to a contender and he gets to make even more money on a team like Houston with no state tax, he surely would not be against it

I can't see Melo asking for a trade at this point. He knows the roster is about to turn over and that we'll have cap space to try and improve the roster and a draft pick. What Melo wants is to have his money, be in New York and win. He's gonna wait until they at least try to improve the team before he would ask to be traded. It was his idea to stay knowing that this year's team wasn't the team he was going to go to war with for the remainder of his contract. Melo is gonna give Phil is chance to redo this team.

Wow, you really think we can still assemble a roster with CA in on NYKs?
You gotta be kidding me right?

No talent is going to want to come to this team and we have limited and one pick

So unless

LA
Gasol
Lebron
Millsap
Kevin Love

2 out of the above somehow come over, which means they have to take less too, I don't see us being relevent next year either

Lets not forget the tax rate is higher in NYC
Unless they make it back in endorsements, GUARANTEED by Nike or a big sneaker company and many other possible endorsements I don't see it
Think there is a better chance one of these players go to The Lakers than to NYK's

It's not impossible for the team to get a good draft pick likely a big man like Okafor. Then also add a FA guard like Reggie Jackson, Dragic or Knight. No it's not a contender right away but it would be an improvement and move the team in the right direction. The franchise has been down and without a solid direction for so long but they can surely start to change that this summer.

There are a LOT of FA's who will be looking for a home and I doubt the Knicks get shut out in this market. We don't even have to overspend on FA's either. There's a smart way to shop for FA's rather than go after guys who are in the more expensive range. There are younger vets who aren't in the league long enough to put them in the more expensive Max level.

Splat wrote:No elite player is coming to team up with Melo.

Nix lives in a bubble. Sorry Nix, but you are truly off in some far off zone. Nobody of real worth is going to devalue themselves by teaming up with Melo. He's a complete joke.

The only value Melo has is to be plugged into an already functional contender. THAT IS ALL MELO IS GOOD FOR. Get it into your head Nix. You cannot rebuild around Melo. It is ridiculous if you think so still.

That is why the only hope for this franchise is to push the plunger and dump him soon.

No, it doesn't matter if we get the # 1 pick. Melo is still going to be a problem, because even with a top pick you will not have instant results. It is still a rebuild. Wake up fella.

nixluva wrote:

Splat wrote:No elite player is coming to team up with Melo.

Nix lives in a bubble. Sorry Nix, but you are truly off in some far off zone. Nobody of real worth is going to devalue themselves by teaming up with Melo. He's a complete joke.

The only value Melo has is to be plugged into an already functional contender. THAT IS ALL MELO IS GOOD FOR. Get it into your head Nix. You cannot rebuild around Melo. It is ridiculous if you think so still.

That is why the only hope for this franchise is to push the plunger and dump him soon.

No, it doesn't matter if we get the # 1 pick. Melo is still going to be a problem, because even with a top pick you will not have instant results. It is still a rebuild. Wake up fella.

I never suggested we would sign a so called "Elite" free agent. We don't have to sign an "Elite" Free Agent to start the process of rebuilding this team. There are young players who want to have a team where they could have a higher profile role in a bigger stage like New York, like a Reggie Jackson or Greg Monroe. It's very much a possibility. A starting role in New York may not seem attractive to you but agents will want to steer their clients to this market rather than a Utah or Minnesota etc.

You cannot rebuild with Melo.

He doesn't know how to play well with others.

He cannot lead and he cannot mentor younger players. That's what rebuilding requires. It seems you haven't figured this out yet.

CrushAlot wrote:

Splat wrote:It is simply time to come to grips with the truth.

Nobody will want to play with Carmelo Anthony any longer if they have an opportunity to play for better clubs at close to comparable money.

Melo's reputation cannot be good among the league's top players. He does not play well with others and nobody who values their career and reputation is going to believe they can rebuild this team by pairing up with Melo.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

5-26 means:

Upside: Draft pick

Downside: Best free agents will stay away

It is not going to be both.

Get it?

When have the Knicks had money to offer an 'elite' player a deal other than the mini mle during Melo's tenure? No elite player goes anywhere for the mmle.

An Elite player can force his way here A La La Melo

Approaching extension and demand a trade

CP3 declined to do it as did Love as did Rondo

CrushAlot wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Splat wrote:It is simply time to come to grips with the truth.

Nobody will want to play with Carmelo Anthony any longer if they have an opportunity to play for better clubs at close to comparable money.

Melo's reputation cannot be good among the league's top players. He does not play well with others and nobody who values their career and reputation is going to believe they can rebuild this team by pairing up with Melo.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

5-26 means:

Upside: Draft pick

Downside: Best free agents will stay away

It is not going to be both.

Get it?

When have the Knicks had money to offer an 'elite' player a deal other than the mini mle during Melo's tenure? No elite player goes anywhere for the mmle.

An Elite player can force his way here A La La Melo

Approaching extension and demand a trade

CP3 declined to do it as did Love as did Rondo

So are you agreeing that the Knicks have been pretty limited in their ability to pay free agents during Melo's tenure? Splat was talking about free agents.

Tyson came so there's goes the wonderment but it wasn't a long line

Meanwhile the crux of the matter is what Elite player

Truly wants to tango with Melo

They can arrive here on many different fronts

CrushAlot wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Splat wrote:It is simply time to come to grips with the truth.

Nobody will want to play with Carmelo Anthony any longer if they have an opportunity to play for better clubs at close to comparable money.

Melo's reputation cannot be good among the league's top players. He does not play well with others and nobody who values their career and reputation is going to believe they can rebuild this team by pairing up with Melo.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

5-26 means:

Upside: Draft pick

Downside: Best free agents will stay away

It is not going to be both.

Get it?

When have the Knicks had money to offer an 'elite' player a deal other than the mini mle during Melo's tenure? No elite player goes anywhere for the mmle.

An Elite player can force his way here A La La Melo

Approaching extension and demand a trade

CP3 declined to do it as did Love as did Rondo

So are you agreeing that the Knicks have been pretty limited in their ability to pay free agents during Melo's tenure? Splat was talking about free agents.

Except you're sidestepping into a rabbit hole of no consequence to the point I was making.

The point is you cannot rebuild around Melo and that any truly top grade FA will not choose to play with him. It doesn't matter how much money we have unless we overpay those FA's so much more than anyone else they can't say no. And where does that leave us? Nofukkingwhere.

Just cap space alone doesn't make the Knicks a good choice for most FA's.

We have to rebuild our reputation. That takes time and evidence of a new culture, not something that happens magically in a year or two. Phil's 11 rings is not a culture. Cultures take years to build.

Further, we chose to use up a good chunk of our cap going forward on Melo. I don't know if that was Dolan's condition for hiring Phil, but if that is how we spend our money then free agency isn't going to help us much with that kind of overspending.

The only real hope for this franchise is dumping Melo and not committing to big and long contracts. It will take five years.

The alternative is the way we're going which will lead to year 5 of grandpa Melo and nothing rebuilt.