Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Replace Melo with Durant- how many more games do we win? yeah, exactly. We're a bad team that doesn't defend well or rebound- Melo is mainly a scorer, but if the team isn't defend, rebounding or shooting well, then it renders his contribution pretty much irrelevant.

The nice thing is we have stats that can answer this question (not perfectly but better than any eyeball assessment). Over the past 3 years, Durant has contributed about 49 win shares and Melo 26. So that's about 8 more wins a season with Durant - about 100 winning percentage points. If Melo continues to play at this current level though he'll be below what I cited during that 3 year stretch and the difference will be larger.

Agreed, I mean if you had a choice between melo and durant 99% of people would be picking durant with good reason

The more pertinent question though is if you had a choice between Melo and $124 mil in cap space, what do you pick? A lot of people here thought "losing him for nothing" would be a disaster but the real disaster was making him the highest paid player on the planet (and then throwing in a no-trade clause).

your good at working both sides of that arguement and never providing good examples of what you would do with that cap space.

You say no good FAs are coming to a bad team, but cry about Melo's cap hold.

Pat Riley coached the Heat to a 15-67 record. Wade played 51 games and put up 25ppg, 7 assits and 4 rebs in 51 games. The team stunk it happens

Exaclty- Bonn1997 all you're doing these days is complaining about every move. Fine, I get the frustration, but you never say properly what you would do. Go on, give us an idea of the players you'd draft and sign!

I've done this hundreds of times. I've listed specifically players I'd trade and look to acquire. I even listed several Melo trades I'd try to do just a few days ago. Where have you been?

I'm not stalking you Bonn1997- I've no idea where you've posted the list of realistic free agents you'd target (I seem to recall the Melo trades)- I suspect you haven't! ha!

F500ONE wrote:

fishmike wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Replace Melo with Durant- how many more games do we win? yeah, exactly. We're a bad team that doesn't defend well or rebound- Melo is mainly a scorer, but if the team isn't defend, rebounding or shooting well, then it renders his contribution pretty much irrelevant.

The nice thing is we have stats that can answer this question (not perfectly but better than any eyeball assessment). Over the past 3 years, Durant has contributed about 49 win shares and Melo 26. So that's about 8 more wins a season with Durant - about 100 winning percentage points. If Melo continues to play at this current level though he'll be below what I cited during that 3 year stretch and the difference will be larger.

Wow! 8 more wins! That would ensure we get a worse lottery pick and accomplish nothing else. Sign me up! Those stats are flawed anyways- they don't take into account what would actually happen to Durant's morale, effort etc in this kind of perpetual losing ineptitude environment.

exactly. Durant is a better player. Its not debatable. Nice to see the advanced stat heads show us even with one of the best players on the planet this is still a 25 win team. Thanks for that.

That 8 win difference is weighted

Considering Durant plays the majority of his games out West

So it's probably like another 4-5gm difference in Durants favor

Playing here in the East

Maybe I should

turn in my MELO IS GOD

fan

card.

F500ONE wrote:

fishmike wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

fishmike wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Replace Melo with Durant- how many more games do we win? yeah, exactly. We're a bad team that doesn't defend well or rebound- Melo is mainly a scorer, but if the team isn't defend, rebounding or shooting well, then it renders his contribution pretty much irrelevant.

The nice thing is we have stats that can answer this question (not perfectly but better than any eyeball assessment). Over the past 3 years, Durant has contributed about 49 win shares and Melo 26. So that's about 8 more wins a season with Durant - about 100 winning percentage points. If Melo continues to play at this current level though he'll be below what I cited during that 3 year stretch and the difference will be larger.

Wow! 8 more wins! That would ensure we get a worse lottery pick and accomplish nothing else. Sign me up! Those stats are flawed anyways- they don't take into account what would actually happen to Durant's morale, effort etc in this kind of perpetual losing ineptitude environment.

exactly. Durant is a better player. Its not debatable. Nice to see the advanced stat heads show us even with one of the best players on the planet this is still a 25 win team. Thanks for that.

That 8 win difference is weighted

Considering Durant plays the majority of his games out West

So it's probably like another 4-5gm difference in Durants favor

Playing here in the East

Sweet! So we would win 30 instead of 20? Booya! I can see your excitement.

Maybe I should

turn in my MELO IS GOD

fan

card.

Well thanks for confirming you don't hand out $125mil

To a player on an 18win team with him on it

fishmike wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

fishmike wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Replace Melo with Durant- how many more games do we win? yeah, exactly. We're a bad team that doesn't defend well or rebound- Melo is mainly a scorer, but if the team isn't defend, rebounding or shooting well, then it renders his contribution pretty much irrelevant.

The nice thing is we have stats that can answer this question (not perfectly but better than any eyeball assessment). Over the past 3 years, Durant has contributed about 49 win shares and Melo 26. So that's about 8 more wins a season with Durant - about 100 winning percentage points. If Melo continues to play at this current level though he'll be below what I cited during that 3 year stretch and the difference will be larger.

Wow! 8 more wins! That would ensure we get a worse lottery pick and accomplish nothing else. Sign me up! Those stats are flawed anyways- they don't take into account what would actually happen to Durant's morale, effort etc in this kind of perpetual losing ineptitude environment.

exactly. Durant is a better player. Its not debatable. Nice to see the advanced stat heads show us even with one of the best players on the planet this is still a 25 win team. Thanks for that.

That 8 win difference is weighted

Considering Durant plays the majority of his games out West

So it's probably like another 4-5gm difference in Durants favor

Playing here in the East

Sweet! So we would win 30 instead of 20? Booya! I can see your excitement.

Maybe I should

turn in my MELO IS GOD

fan

card.

Compare the OKC team's other players versus ours. would we be 5-22 or 22-5?

Let me try this

C-Adams
PF-Serge Ibaka
F Carmelo Anthony
G Russel Westbrook
G Reggie Jackson

BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

fishmike wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Replace Melo with Durant- how many more games do we win? yeah, exactly. We're a bad team that doesn't defend well or rebound- Melo is mainly a scorer, but if the team isn't defend, rebounding or shooting well, then it renders his contribution pretty much irrelevant.

The nice thing is we have stats that can answer this question (not perfectly but better than any eyeball assessment). Over the past 3 years, Durant has contributed about 49 win shares and Melo 26. So that's about 8 more wins a season with Durant - about 100 winning percentage points. If Melo continues to play at this current level though he'll be below what I cited during that 3 year stretch and the difference will be larger.

Wow! 8 more wins! That would ensure we get a worse lottery pick and accomplish nothing else. Sign me up! Those stats are flawed anyways- they don't take into account what would actually happen to Durant's morale, effort etc in this kind of perpetual losing ineptitude environment.

exactly. Durant is a better player. Its not debatable. Nice to see the advanced stat heads show us even with one of the best players on the planet this is still a 25 win team. Thanks for that.

That 8 win difference is weighted

Considering Durant plays the majority of his games out West

So it's probably like another 4-5gm difference in Durants favor

Playing here in the East

Sweet! So we would win 30 instead of 20? Booya! I can see your excitement.

Maybe I should

turn in my MELO IS GOD

fan

card.

Compare the OKC team's other players versus ours. would we be 5-22 or 22-5?

Let me try this

C-Adams
PF-Serge Ibaka
F Carmelo Anthony
G Russel Westbrook
G Reggie Jackson

They never sniff the Finals not a #1 seed EVER

SwishAndDish13 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

SwishAndDish13 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:Was Felton and Chandler & Woodson that great of a supporting cast?

I keep saying - but if Melo really is this All Star caliber player, even with a collection of misfits, we should be better.

If Melo is so great, who is holding him back? Who is sabotaging him from winning us a few more games?

Is Fisher this bad of a coach? I mean, if Melo really is this great, then you should be able to pull any coach- someone off the street even- and we would win more than 5 games.

If you believe Melo is this great player, deserving of his massive contract, explain how we are so bad.

This is a fair question but I would ask the opposite. 2 years ago Knicks won 54 games and Melo was 3rd in MVP voting. What is Melo doing differently than he did that year? Ironically I think that was Melo's best year in terms of win shares and he also led the league in usage.

So is the problem Melo and building around or does the team just stink?

We've actually never really attempted to build around Melo in his tenure with the Knicks. We basically just try to plug random scraps in and play since we caped ourselves out with the Amare deal and overpaying Tyson. Would have made more sense to eat Melo's first year here rather than set ourselves back another 3-4 years, but that is not what management chose to do.

actually didnt we? Wasnt the 54 win team a build around Melo? You had Melo a bunch of vets and some shooters. That was essentially the type of teams he had in Denver. Good enough to win, be in next the 50 win range but its too easy to defend in the playoffs and Melo isnt consistent enough a shooter to carry a team that way in the post season.

Yes and no. You are right. That team was built around him. However, they basically picked up scraps but they were vets that we could get for next to nothing (except Fat-ton). I was referring to them picking up players that made sense and would be around for more than a year so they could build some chemistry. Looking at that run, I think the backcourt shot 30% or less in the Indy series if my memory is correct. That clearly cost us.

Its funny. I have no problem with taking shots at Melo. His game has holes. But guys here talk about that team like it didnt happen, or say things like it was Jason Kidd's leadership.. he was the real MVP. He played a nice role. Know how many shots he in 12 playoff games? 3. Dude made 3 baskets.

When the teams win its the team. When they lose its MElo. You might want to write that down.

fishmike wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

fishmike wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

fishmike wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Replace Melo with Durant- how many more games do we win? yeah, exactly. We're a bad team that doesn't defend well or rebound- Melo is mainly a scorer, but if the team isn't defend, rebounding or shooting well, then it renders his contribution pretty much irrelevant.

The nice thing is we have stats that can answer this question (not perfectly but better than any eyeball assessment). Over the past 3 years, Durant has contributed about 49 win shares and Melo 26. So that's about 8 more wins a season with Durant - about 100 winning percentage points. If Melo continues to play at this current level though he'll be below what I cited during that 3 year stretch and the difference will be larger.

Wow! 8 more wins! That would ensure we get a worse lottery pick and accomplish nothing else. Sign me up! Those stats are flawed anyways- they don't take into account what would actually happen to Durant's morale, effort etc in this kind of perpetual losing ineptitude environment.

exactly. Durant is a better player. Its not debatable. Nice to see the advanced stat heads show us even with one of the best players on the planet this is still a 25 win team. Thanks for that.

That 8 win difference is weighted

Considering Durant plays the majority of his games out West

So it's probably like another 4-5gm difference in Durants favor

Playing here in the East

Sweet! So we would win 30 instead of 20? Booya! I can see your excitement.

Maybe I should

turn in my MELO IS GOD

fan

card.

Well thanks for confirming you don't hand out $125mil

To a player on an 18win team with him on it

Hows Thadeus Young playing? Remember he was the kind guy you kept harping on getting instead of $25mm to Melo. Go look up Youngs win shares and get back to me. You know nothing about this game and league.... but the formatting keeps us all on edge. Good stuff.

You mean the Thad Young we should have instead of Calderon?

You tried to dumb that conversation down where your Zero came out on top

It wasn't about Thad Young vs Melo although I mentioned their pay vs their play

We were actually talking about putting Thad alongside Melo, stop being such a peon

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=48048&page=1

If any comparison was done it was having Thad here instead of Calderon

Last night

STARTERS	MIN	FGM-A	3PM-A	FTM-A	OREB	DREB	REB	AST	STL	PTS
Thaddeus Y 	35	12-19	0-0	5-12	2	2	4	2	2	29
Jose Calderon	32	1-6	1-5	0-0	0	4	4	2	0	3

Having a better yr than Calderon as is Wilson Chandler and probably even Mozgov

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

SwishAndDish13 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

SwishAndDish13 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:Was Felton and Chandler & Woodson that great of a supporting cast?

I keep saying - but if Melo really is this All Star caliber player, even with a collection of misfits, we should be better.

If Melo is so great, who is holding him back? Who is sabotaging him from winning us a few more games?

Is Fisher this bad of a coach? I mean, if Melo really is this great, then you should be able to pull any coach- someone off the street even- and we would win more than 5 games.

If you believe Melo is this great player, deserving of his massive contract, explain how we are so bad.

This is a fair question but I would ask the opposite. 2 years ago Knicks won 54 games and Melo was 3rd in MVP voting. What is Melo doing differently than he did that year? Ironically I think that was Melo's best year in terms of win shares and he also led the league in usage.

So is the problem Melo and building around or does the team just stink?

We've actually never really attempted to build around Melo in his tenure with the Knicks. We basically just try to plug random scraps in and play since we caped ourselves out with the Amare deal and overpaying Tyson. Would have made more sense to eat Melo's first year here rather than set ourselves back another 3-4 years, but that is not what management chose to do.

actually didnt we? Wasnt the 54 win team a build around Melo? You had Melo a bunch of vets and some shooters. That was essentially the type of teams he had in Denver. Good enough to win, be in next the 50 win range but its too easy to defend in the playoffs and Melo isnt consistent enough a shooter to carry a team that way in the post season.

Yes and no. You are right. That team was built around him. However, they basically picked up scraps but they were vets that we could get for next to nothing (except Fat-ton). I was referring to them picking up players that made sense and would be around for more than a year so they could build some chemistry. Looking at that run, I think the backcourt shot 30% or less in the Indy series if my memory is correct. That clearly cost us.

sure... or its another example of Melo failing to elevate the level of play of his teammates

Its funny. I have no problem with taking shots at Melo. His game has holes. But guys here talk about that team like it didnt happen, or say things like it was Jason Kidd's leadership.. he was the real MVP. He played a nice role. Know how many shots he in 12 playoff games? 3. Dude made 3 baskets.

When the teams win its the team. When they lose its MElo. You might want to write that down.

This is the thing about Melo that bugs me. That 54 win team? I watched it. I kept pinching myself because for the last decade we've been a joke.

But I'm trying to understand the difference between that team and the one we have now.

I thought we overachieved- and Jason Kidd was en fuego at the start of the season, and then plummeted.

This year, I think we're underachieving. OK - we shouldn't have 20 wins - but we have 5.

I think the biggest hole in Melo's game is leadership, and I'm beginning to think he is a negative leadership player - where guys not only don't want to play with him, they don't want to play well with him and want to fail just to drag him down.

Agree 100%

It's a good thing he is here for another 5yrs at $124mil

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

SwishAndDish13 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

SwishAndDish13 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:Was Felton and Chandler & Woodson that great of a supporting cast?

I keep saying - but if Melo really is this All Star caliber player, even with a collection of misfits, we should be better.

If Melo is so great, who is holding him back? Who is sabotaging him from winning us a few more games?

Is Fisher this bad of a coach? I mean, if Melo really is this great, then you should be able to pull any coach- someone off the street even- and we would win more than 5 games.

If you believe Melo is this great player, deserving of his massive contract, explain how we are so bad.

This is a fair question but I would ask the opposite. 2 years ago Knicks won 54 games and Melo was 3rd in MVP voting. What is Melo doing differently than he did that year? Ironically I think that was Melo's best year in terms of win shares and he also led the league in usage.

So is the problem Melo and building around or does the team just stink?

We've actually never really attempted to build around Melo in his tenure with the Knicks. We basically just try to plug random scraps in and play since we caped ourselves out with the Amare deal and overpaying Tyson. Would have made more sense to eat Melo's first year here rather than set ourselves back another 3-4 years, but that is not what management chose to do.

actually didnt we? Wasnt the 54 win team a build around Melo? You had Melo a bunch of vets and some shooters. That was essentially the type of teams he had in Denver. Good enough to win, be in next the 50 win range but its too easy to defend in the playoffs and Melo isnt consistent enough a shooter to carry a team that way in the post season.

Yes and no. You are right. That team was built around him. However, they basically picked up scraps but they were vets that we could get for next to nothing (except Fat-ton). I was referring to them picking up players that made sense and would be around for more than a year so they could build some chemistry. Looking at that run, I think the backcourt shot 30% or less in the Indy series if my memory is correct. That clearly cost us.

sure... or its another example of Melo failing to elevate the level of play of his teammates

Its funny. I have no problem with taking shots at Melo. His game has holes. But guys here talk about that team like it didnt happen, or say things like it was Jason Kidd's leadership.. he was the real MVP. He played a nice role. Know how many shots he in 12 playoff games? 3. Dude made 3 baskets.

When the teams win its the team. When they lose its MElo. You might want to write that down.

This is the thing about Melo that bugs me. That 54 win team? I watched it. I kept pinching myself because for the last decade we've been a joke.

But I'm trying to understand the difference between that team and the one we have now.

I thought we overachieved- and Jason Kidd was en fuego at the start of the season, and then plummeted.

This year, I think we're underachieving. OK - we shouldn't have 20 wins - but we have 5.

I think the biggest hole in Melo's game is leadership, and I'm beginning to think he is a negative leadership player - where guys not only don't want to play with him, they don't want to play well with him and want to fail just to drag him down.

This. All dumb pro athletes make this a priority in their careers when playing with people they don't like. Other GM's in the league and Phil will certainly notice this as a great trait to have as an NBA professional. I'm beginning to think THJr is going 0-8 from three just because he doesn't want to play on the see-saw with $124MMeee-low. If Melo was just more likable, I'm sure Dalembert would be Bill Russell by now.

WTF are you beginning to think this is, playground time in the third grade?

jrodmc wrote:

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

SwishAndDish13 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

SwishAndDish13 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:Was Felton and Chandler & Woodson that great of a supporting cast?

I keep saying - but if Melo really is this All Star caliber player, even with a collection of misfits, we should be better.

If Melo is so great, who is holding him back? Who is sabotaging him from winning us a few more games?

Is Fisher this bad of a coach? I mean, if Melo really is this great, then you should be able to pull any coach- someone off the street even- and we would win more than 5 games.

If you believe Melo is this great player, deserving of his massive contract, explain how we are so bad.

This is a fair question but I would ask the opposite. 2 years ago Knicks won 54 games and Melo was 3rd in MVP voting. What is Melo doing differently than he did that year? Ironically I think that was Melo's best year in terms of win shares and he also led the league in usage.

So is the problem Melo and building around or does the team just stink?

We've actually never really attempted to build around Melo in his tenure with the Knicks. We basically just try to plug random scraps in and play since we caped ourselves out with the Amare deal and overpaying Tyson. Would have made more sense to eat Melo's first year here rather than set ourselves back another 3-4 years, but that is not what management chose to do.

actually didnt we? Wasnt the 54 win team a build around Melo? You had Melo a bunch of vets and some shooters. That was essentially the type of teams he had in Denver. Good enough to win, be in next the 50 win range but its too easy to defend in the playoffs and Melo isnt consistent enough a shooter to carry a team that way in the post season.

Yes and no. You are right. That team was built around him. However, they basically picked up scraps but they were vets that we could get for next to nothing (except Fat-ton). I was referring to them picking up players that made sense and would be around for more than a year so they could build some chemistry. Looking at that run, I think the backcourt shot 30% or less in the Indy series if my memory is correct. That clearly cost us.

sure... or its another example of Melo failing to elevate the level of play of his teammates

Its funny. I have no problem with taking shots at Melo. His game has holes. But guys here talk about that team like it didnt happen, or say things like it was Jason Kidd's leadership.. he was the real MVP. He played a nice role. Know how many shots he in 12 playoff games? 3. Dude made 3 baskets.

When the teams win its the team. When they lose its MElo. You might want to write that down.

This is the thing about Melo that bugs me. That 54 win team? I watched it. I kept pinching myself because for the last decade we've been a joke.

But I'm trying to understand the difference between that team and the one we have now.

I thought we overachieved- and Jason Kidd was en fuego at the start of the season, and then plummeted.

This year, I think we're underachieving. OK - we shouldn't have 20 wins - but we have 5.

I think the biggest hole in Melo's game is leadership, and I'm beginning to think he is a negative leadership player - where guys not only don't want to play with him, they don't want to play well with him and want to fail just to drag him down.

This. All dumb pro athletes make this a priority in their careers when playing with people they don't like. Other GM's in the league and Phil will certainly notice this as a great trait to have as an NBA professional. I'm beginning to think THJr is going 0-8 from three just because he doesn't want to play on the see-saw with $124MMeee-low. If Melo was just more likable, I'm sure Dalembert would be Bill Russell by now.

WTF are you beginning to think this is, playground time in the third grade?

If Melo is a prick, is it other people's fault for not liking him?

Hey- I'm not a Melo hater. Maybe Melo just rubs some people the wrong way. I'm like that - some people don't understand my humor and I can be a rude speak my mouth bastard.

But I think people at work like me.

At this stage of the season, I think its fair to ask- is Melo a prick and generally unlikeable? Do we need to surround him with other pricks that don't give a blank about getting along with people.

Does Melo want to win? Or does he only care about getting paid?

With 5 wins, we can provide excuses.

But is Melo buying into the system? Or just trying to float on by?

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Replace Melo with Durant- how many more games do we win? yeah, exactly. We're a bad team that doesn't defend well or rebound- Melo is mainly a scorer, but if the team isn't defend, rebounding or shooting well, then it renders his contribution pretty much irrelevant.

The nice thing is we have stats that can answer this question (not perfectly but better than any eyeball assessment). Over the past 3 years, Durant has contributed about 49 win shares and Melo 26. So that's about 8 more wins a season with Durant - about 100 winning percentage points. If Melo continues to play at this current level though he'll be below what I cited during that 3 year stretch and the difference will be larger.

Agreed, I mean if you had a choice between melo and durant 99% of people would be picking durant with good reason

The more pertinent question though is if you had a choice between Melo and $124 mil in cap space, what do you pick? A lot of people here thought "losing him for nothing" would be a disaster but the real disaster was making him the highest paid player on the planet (and then throwing in a no-trade clause).

your good at working both sides of that arguement and never providing good examples of what you would do with that cap space.

You say no good FAs are coming to a bad team, but cry about Melo's cap hold.

Pat Riley coached the Heat to a 15-67 record. Wade played 51 games and put up 25ppg, 7 assits and 4 rebs in 51 games. The team stunk it happens

Exaclty- Bonn1997 all you're doing these days is complaining about every move. Fine, I get the frustration, but you never say properly what you would do. Go on, give us an idea of the players you'd draft and sign!

I've done this hundreds of times. I've listed specifically players I'd trade and look to acquire. I even listed several Melo trades I'd try to do just a few days ago. Where have you been?

I'm not stalking you Bonn1997- I've no idea where you've posted the list of realistic free agents you'd target (I seem to recall the Melo trades)- I suspect you haven't! ha!

I do sometimes list players who I think are being undervalued - whether it's a small role player like JJ Reddick or a bigger name player like Harden and Millsap. I don't do that often though because:
a) almost any player in the league is good or bad depending on the price (and I don't know what the price will be in advance) and
b) I'm much more concerned about who is making the decisions and how they are being made than any one trade. We need someone with a masterful understanding of the metrics who can compliment that by visually observations. I'd like to either grab one of Morey's top assistants or another metrics expert like the Raptors just hired.
If you want specific trade proposals, how about Larkin and Calderon for Tyson and Felton? Just kidding

For all the love Morey gets on here. He traded Gay in order to tank for Wiggins. He was going to trade Lowry for a 2018 draft pick. The Raptors started winning not by design but despite Morey's desire to tank.

It wasn't a master plan that paid off.