holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:I don't think making a run at Thaddeous Young and Robin lopez was Phil's selling point to Melo last summer...

I think you do what you can to get him help like this while maintaining flexibility. You make sure you get back into the playoffs by adding some talent, then make sure to have the assets for a big move if needed. For example, put a team like what hid suggested on the floor, hope it mixed well, then you have the lottery selection to use for one last big move when needed. Instead of Thad young I would probably want tabias harris who will be a little more expensive but has better upside. Adding players like harris, lopez, and the lottery pick gets you younger, better, and still allows another big move when it comes up.

I don't think u add middle of the road guys who eats up cap space until u land a big name..All the guys mentioned above eats up cap space..Heck, I hope Phil is working getting rid of Calderon ASAP..Phil didn't come here to put a .500 team on the court..I think u stay nimble until u can put 2 to 3 big names together..I'm glad Howard Beck isn't our GM..

StarksEwing1 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:I don't think making a run at Thaddeous Young and Robin lopez was Phil's selling point to Melo last summer...

I think you do what you can to get him help like this while maintaining flexibility. You make sure you get back into the playoffs by adding some talent, then make sure to have the assets for a big move if needed. For example, put a team like what hid suggested on the floor, hope it mixed well, then you have the lottery selection to use for one last big move when needed. Instead of Thad young I would probably want tabias harris who will be a little more expensive but has better upside. Adding players like harris, lopez, and the lottery pick gets you younger, better, and still allows another big move when it comes up.

I don't think u add middle of the road guys who eats up cap space until u land a big name..All the guys mentioned above eats up cap space..Heck, I hope Phil is working getting rid of Calderon ASAP..Phil didn't come here to put a .500 team on the court..I think u stay nimble until u can put 2 to 3 big names together..I'm glad Howard Beck isn't our GM..

phil is gonna do what he thinks is right so if that means saving cap space for durant he will try that. I trust phil but i hope dolan keeps out of it

I like shooting for the stars but Durant??..Come on bro..

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:I don't think making a run at Thaddeous Young and Robin lopez was Phil's selling point to Melo last summer...

I think you do what you can to get him help like this while maintaining flexibility. You make sure you get back into the playoffs by adding some talent, then make sure to have the assets for a big move if needed. For example, put a team like what hid suggested on the floor, hope it mixed well, then you have the lottery selection to use for one last big move when needed. Instead of Thad young I would probably want tabias harris who will be a little more expensive but has better upside. Adding players like harris, lopez, and the lottery pick gets you younger, better, and still allows another big move when it comes up.

I don't think u add middle of the road guys who eats up cap space until u land a big name..All the guys mentioned above eats up cap space..Heck, I hope Phil is working getting rid of Calderon ASAP..Phil didn't come here to put a .500 team on the court..I think u stay nimble until u can put 2 to 3 big names together..I'm glad Howard Beck isn't our GM..

Harris and Lopez might be middle of the road when it comes to notoriety but there games are strong and rising. If the knicks managed to get them they would be players playing at a high level while still not being in their prime. Especially, Harris who is one of the younger FAs out there on the market. It will be hard to get either of those two guys though.

yellowboy90 wrote:Would you guys mind if the Knicks had to put some player friendly language into the contracts of RFAs to lure them in and to keep their team from matching?

Language like this?

The New York Knicks organization finds you appealing, compelling and worthy of our esteem.

TripleThreat wrote:

holfresh wrote:I don't think u add middle of the road guys who eats up cap space until u land a big name..All the guys mentioned above eats up cap space..Heck, I hope Phil is working getting rid of Calderon ASAP..Phil didn't come here to put a .500 team on the court..I think u stay nimble until u can put 2 to 3 big names together..I'm glad Howard Beck isn't our GM..

^ It's this kind of thinking that got the Knicks where they are right now ( in franchise hell)

The fruitless chase for LeBron James in 2010-2011, where the Knicks gouged themselves of assets

The signing of Amare Stoudamire, a "name" player, but one whose contract sank this team

The trade for Melo, another "name" player, but at the cost of gutting what was left of the team and assets after the above.

In theory, waiting for that "big name" is nice, but there aren't many big names that actually reach pure free agency. Those that do, clearly don't favor the Knicks.

Cap space is meant to be spent. The issue isn't spending cap space, it's spending it on players who don't offer at least a market based return on their cost. If you pay 10 million a year for a starting center who gives you production based on league wide current market value at about 10 million a year, that's not a bad contract. It's not a value contract, but it's not a bad contract.

The Knicks have, IMHO, arguably the least talented 15 man roster in the league right now. If you remove Philly ( who clearly are blowing up / have blown up their roster), most of the rest of the league's 2nd units would be starters on the Knicks today. Most of the Knicks now wouldn't make the 15 man rosters of most other teams. When you are that talent deficient, you must follow the "Beggars can't be choosers" doctrine.

Beck is just looking at this practically. The Knicks aren't going to get the top free agents that will hit the market this offseason. If Player X can get the same amount of money and/or more and go to a better situation for winning, he's not signing with the Knicks.

"Cap space" in a raw sense is not desirable. The Lakers had a massive amount of cap space this offseason. How did that work out for them? They ended up reupping Nick Young to hit the salary floor.

The desirable option, IMHO , is "cap flexibility"

No bad contracts.
Some rookies outperforming their rookie contracts
A nice balance of expirings and veteran bargain deals
At minimum, everyone is being paid to their market value production level.

We actually want to approach free agency like we did in 1996. We added houston, childs, and LJ via trade. It's a shame we didn't get 3 more great years out of ewing. But houston was young and near all star status, LJ got hurt but was otherwise another big piece, and this team was a contender even after ewing because they were young enough to grow together. Adding monroe or harris and lopez type of players gives that sake opportunity and melo is much younger than ewing at the time same well .

holfresh wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:I don't think making a run at Thaddeous Young and Robin lopez was Phil's selling point to Melo last summer...

I think you do what you can to get him help like this while maintaining flexibility. You make sure you get back into the playoffs by adding some talent, then make sure to have the assets for a big move if needed. For example, put a team like what hid suggested on the floor, hope it mixed well, then you have the lottery selection to use for one last big move when needed. Instead of Thad young I would probably want tabias harris who will be a little more expensive but has better upside. Adding players like harris, lopez, and the lottery pick gets you younger, better, and still allows another big move when it comes up.

I don't think u add middle of the road guys who eats up cap space until u land a big name..All the guys mentioned above eats up cap space..Heck, I hope Phil is working getting rid of Calderon ASAP..Phil didn't come here to put a .500 team on the court..I think u stay nimble until u can put 2 to 3 big names together..I'm glad Howard Beck isn't our GM..

Harris and Lopez might be middle of the road when it comes to notoriety but there games are strong and rising. If the knicks managed to get them they would be players playing at a high level while still not being in their prime. Especially, Harris who is one of the younger FAs out there on the market. It will be hard to get either of those two guys though.

Yeah but what type of salary does Harris command while still not putting u over the top...Same with Lopez...Melo has what,a 3/4 year window...Those two will kill the cap and I can still see us playing .500 ball..Lopez isn't close to what Chandler was and u know he wants 8/10 mil...Harris another 10 mil??...I'm always wary of "good" players on bad teams...U just don't know the quantity..Sure it makes us better but these guys don't make u contend unless u have the main pieces in place and we don't..

My point is, even if we added these two pieces, u still need bigger pieces to contend..

Yeah they probably add 18-20 mil in the first year, but are both young and harris will really improve. You are still left with cap space especially in 2016 and 2017 but also have the lottery pick as an additional asset in case trade comes about for a star type player who fits.

Knixkik wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

holfresh wrote:I don't think u add middle of the road guys who eats up cap space until u land a big name..All the guys mentioned above eats up cap space..Heck, I hope Phil is working getting rid of Calderon ASAP..Phil didn't come here to put a .500 team on the court..I think u stay nimble until u can put 2 to 3 big names together..I'm glad Howard Beck isn't our GM..

^ It's this kind of thinking that got the Knicks where they are right now ( in franchise hell)

The fruitless chase for LeBron James in 2010-2011, where the Knicks gouged themselves of assets

The signing of Amare Stoudamire, a "name" player, but one whose contract sank this team

The trade for Melo, another "name" player, but at the cost of gutting what was left of the team and assets after the above.

In theory, waiting for that "big name" is nice, but there aren't many big names that actually reach pure free agency. Those that do, clearly don't favor the Knicks.

Cap space is meant to be spent. The issue isn't spending cap space, it's spending it on players who don't offer at least a market based return on their cost. If you pay 10 million a year for a starting center who gives you production based on league wide current market value at about 10 million a year, that's not a bad contract. It's not a value contract, but it's not a bad contract.

The Knicks have, IMHO, arguably the least talented 15 man roster in the league right now. If you remove Philly ( who clearly are blowing up / have blown up their roster), most of the rest of the league's 2nd units would be starters on the Knicks today. Most of the Knicks now wouldn't make the 15 man rosters of most other teams. When you are that talent deficient, you must follow the "Beggars can't be choosers" doctrine.

Beck is just looking at this practically. The Knicks aren't going to get the top free agents that will hit the market this offseason. If Player X can get the same amount of money and/or more and go to a better situation for winning, he's not signing with the Knicks.

"Cap space" in a raw sense is not desirable. The Lakers had a massive amount of cap space this offseason. How did that work out for them? They ended up reupping Nick Young to hit the salary floor.

The desirable option, IMHO , is "cap flexibility"

No bad contracts.
Some rookies outperforming their rookie contracts
A nice balance of expirings and veteran bargain deals
At minimum, everyone is being paid to their market value production level.

We actually want to approach free agency like we did in 1996. We added houston, childs, and LJ via trade. It's a shame we didn't get 3 more great years out of ewing. But houston was young and near all star status, LJ got hurt but was otherwise another big piece, and this team was a contender even after ewing because they were young enough to grow together. Adding monroe or harris and lopez type of players gives that sake opportunity and melo is much younger than ewing at the time same well .

holfresh wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:I don't think making a run at Thaddeous Young and Robin lopez was Phil's selling point to Melo last summer...

I think you do what you can to get him help like this while maintaining flexibility. You make sure you get back into the playoffs by adding some talent, then make sure to have the assets for a big move if needed. For example, put a team like what hid suggested on the floor, hope it mixed well, then you have the lottery selection to use for one last big move when needed. Instead of Thad young I would probably want tabias harris who will be a little more expensive but has better upside. Adding players like harris, lopez, and the lottery pick gets you younger, better, and still allows another big move when it comes up.

I don't think u add middle of the road guys who eats up cap space until u land a big name..All the guys mentioned above eats up cap space..Heck, I hope Phil is working getting rid of Calderon ASAP..Phil didn't come here to put a .500 team on the court..I think u stay nimble until u can put 2 to 3 big names together..I'm glad Howard Beck isn't our GM..

Harris and Lopez might be middle of the road when it comes to notoriety but there games are strong and rising. If the knicks managed to get them they would be players playing at a high level while still not being in their prime. Especially, Harris who is one of the younger FAs out there on the market. It will be hard to get either of those two guys though.

Yeah but what type of salary does Harris command while still not putting u over the top...Same with Lopez...Melo has what,a 3/4 year window...Those two will kill the cap and I can still see us playing .500 ball..Lopez isn't close to what Chandler was and u know he wants 8/10 mil...Harris another 10 mil??...I'm always wary of "good" players on bad teams...U just don't know the quantity..Sure it makes us better but these guys don't make u contend unless u have the main pieces in place and we don't..

My point is, even if we added these two pieces, u still need bigger pieces to contend..

To contend in the east no. Actually, Lopez is close to what Tyson was when he was 26. Who was Tyson before he went to Dallas? He was a journeymen partly because of his injuries but some because of his limited play but Tyson didn't start to beast until he hit his prim years. Also, like I mentioned earlier about the impact Lopez made with Aldridge and Portland. They struggled severely defensively before he got there. Lopez is also a better rim protector than Tyson and although he is not the greatest rebounder he rebounds it better than Gasol. Plus he is a smart player who can pass even though it does not show up in ast. I think those would come in this system.

Harris is a solid offensive player than can grow into a highly efficient player. I want a young FA that is not set in his ways and is willing to be groomed. The guy just keeps improving and even though he is not on a winning basketball team he is playing like a winner. You don't punish players on bad teams and also it is hard to get players on good teams (or bad) to come to a team that hasn't won. There are some things working in the Knicks favor with Tobias, like he is from New York, his shoe deal, and relationship with Melo. Now, those are just minor things but those are something plus NY might be willing to pay more than Orlando.

Stars are nice but sometimes teams have to create/find stars before they are stars. Also, look at what changed some of the teams in the east. Teams like Was, Tor, and ATL picked up quality players and surrounded their talent. Nene, Gortat, Millsap, Korver, and Lowry where not stars they were quality players.

I will say this though. The Knicks would need to add a dynamic guard too. He doesn't have to be the most efficient scorer but if he plays defense, rebounds, and pass the knicks could use someone to attack the basket. Reggie Jackson is a candidate if they can work out a S&T or even someone like Jeff Teague. I doubt Teague will be available if he keeps up his play and ATL makes some noise in the playoffs but if he/they don't and they want to pass Dennis the torch he would be a guy to go after. He is not exactly my cup of tea but he would do.

yellowboy90 wrote:

Splat wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Would you guys mind if the Knicks had to put some player friendly language into the contracts of RFAs to lure them in and to keep their team from matching?

Language like this?

The New York Knicks organization finds you appealing, compelling and worthy of our esteem.

No language like what Dallas supposedly put into Parsons' offer sheet.

According to a Houston Chronicle report, Parsons' contract states that he can't be traded until Jan. 15, 2015. And, following the 2014-2015 season, his approval is required for any trade in which he's involved. Parsons is also able to opt out of his contract after two seasons.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/dallas-mavericks/headlines/20140714-rockets-gm-daryl-morey-mavs-a-smart-organization-chandler-parsons-contract-most-untradable-i-ve-ever-seen.ece

How would fans feel if Phil gave out some more contracts with No-trade clauses and opt-outs? Preferably in year two after the cap increases. What if it included a team option in the 4th year?