gunsnewing wrote:maybe not but the biggest indication of tanking is Fisher's substitutions like sticking with Jason Smith in the 4th quarter yesterday. Maybe some of the guys are trying to win but Fisher is controlling the talent level on the court. Not subbing defense for offense vice versa. They are doing a masterful job subliminally tanking

Dude please...you are giving FISHER way too much credit. Call it like it is, FISHER is simply a horrible coach RIGHT NOW

Knicks1969 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:maybe not but the biggest indication of tanking is Fisher's substitutions like sticking with Jason Smith in the 4th quarter yesterday. Maybe some of the guys are trying to win but Fisher is controlling the talent level on the court. Not subbing defense for offense vice versa. They are doing a masterful job subliminally tanking

Dude please...you are giving FISHER way too much credit. Call it like it is, FISHER is simply a horrible coach RIGHT NOW

If that is the case, then Melo is a complete wanker.

gunsnewing wrote:

Splat wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Vmart wrote:There is a plan in place. Phil won't say it because it's not right to but we must keep losing to get better. With losses comes higher first and second round pick. With that comes infusion of talent. This team needs serious talent up grade.

if he wants to lose, why play the starters so many minutes? and why is he taking so many chances almost winning? These close games must be killing him!

That's the only $64,000 question I have right now too. There are mixed signals in how they have handled Melo and the way minutes are being distributed.

It could be gross incompetence. Anything is possible. But it doesn't seem coherent.

It makes me wonder if Phil is letting Fisher fuk up for a reason and not meddling or if all of this has either Phil's blessing or is actually by his design and Fish is fulfilling Phil's wishes. It is troubling.

Melo is playing through injury and heavy minutes because of Digital Enterprise brand and sponsorship obligations. Melo misses games or plays fewer minutes his brand plummets.

Also "dumb Knicks fans" fill the Garden to see $124mil Melo. Winning or losing is irrelevant to them. Keeps Dolan happy

“We have to protect our future,” Jackson said. “We can’t get so enamored with what’s happening now that we don’t protect what’s ahead of us. So that’s a concern. If we evaluate a player and see that he’s going to be a long-term person that can fit into this organization, we’ll do that. But right now those things aren’t jumping out.”

Splat wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:

Splat wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Vmart wrote:There is a plan in place. Phil won't say it because it's not right to but we must keep losing to get better. With losses comes higher first and second round pick. With that comes infusion of talent. This team needs serious talent up grade.

if he wants to lose, why play the starters so many minutes? and why is he taking so many chances almost winning? These close games must be killing him!

That's the only $64,000 question I have right now too. There are mixed signals in how they have handled Melo and the way minutes are being distributed.

It could be gross incompetence. Anything is possible. But it doesn't seem coherent.

It makes me wonder if Phil is letting Fisher fuk up for a reason and not meddling or if all of this has either Phil's blessing or is actually by his design and Fish is fulfilling Phil's wishes. It is troubling.

I think after last night, Phil will take a more engaging approach with the coaching staff. I am for certain he is not too happy with the record. Fisher needs help figuring out his lineups

I wouldn't be so sure. I doubt Phil is telling Fish how to sub the rotation. They surely talk about personnel, but if there were a year to let a coach flounder and figure things out in the school of hard knocks, this is that year. Now that the stakes are low in terms of making the playoffs, Phil actually will benefit if Fish flounders until he gets wiser to how to coach. It would be a very hands-off way of allowing the team to tank without an implicit involvement in that happening.

What I found troubling was rushing Melo back and the minutes he played when he is clearly not healthy. Something is askew there. Needing to win does not answer that regardless of what some here think. It in no way is a clear indication of an imperative to win now. That is absurd. This season is clearly blown.

I think this largely was Melo's decision to come back after two games rest. Not smart, but that is how it appears to me, because I cannot imagine the club pressuring their key investment to rush back.

That leaves mainly questions (for me) of why Melo played so many minutes. Not smart. It is probably Fish's fault. I do not think this would come from Phil. If anything, I think may only step in if he feels Melo's health is in jeapordy. That could happen soon.

For now, I think Phil is letting Fish sink or swim.

CrushAlot wrote:

Splat wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:

Splat wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Vmart wrote:There is a plan in place. Phil won't say it because it's not right to but we must keep losing to get better. With losses comes higher first and second round pick. With that comes infusion of talent. This team needs serious talent up grade.

if he wants to lose, why play the starters so many minutes? and why is he taking so many chances almost winning? These close games must be killing him!

That's the only $64,000 question I have right now too. There are mixed signals in how they have handled Melo and the way minutes are being distributed.

It could be gross incompetence. Anything is possible. But it doesn't seem coherent.

It makes me wonder if Phil is letting Fisher fuk up for a reason and not meddling or if all of this has either Phil's blessing or is actually by his design and Fish is fulfilling Phil's wishes. It is troubling.

I think after last night, Phil will take a more engaging approach with the coaching staff. I am for certain he is not too happy with the record. Fisher needs help figuring out his lineups

I wouldn't be so sure. I doubt Phil is telling Fish how to sub the rotation. They surely talk about personnel, but if there were a year to let a coach flounder and figure things out in the school of hard knocks, this is that year. Now that the stakes are low in terms of making the playoffs, Phil actually will benefit if Fish flounders until he gets wiser to how to coach. It would be a very hands-off way of allowing the team to tank without an implicit involvement in that happening.

What I found troubling was rushing Melo back and the minutes he played when he is clearly not healthy. Something is askew there. Needing to win does not answer that regardless of what some here think. It in no way is a clear indication of an imperative to win now. That is absurd. This season is clearly blown.

I think this largely was Melo's decision to come back after two games rest. Not smart, but that is how it appears to me, because I cannot imagine the club pressuring their key investment to rush back.

That leaves mainly questions (for me) of why Melo played so many minutes. Not smart. It is probably Fish's fault. I do not think this would come from Phil. If anything, I think may only step in if he feels Melo's health is in jeapordy. That could happen soon.

For now, I think Phil is letting Fish sink or swim.

Some of the stuff that has happened on the bench is surprising. Fish is a rookie and will have growing pains but he has Rambis and Cleamons on his staff. Things like having a foul to give and using it in the final seconds of the game are pretty basic. If you have been a part of a championship staff and have been a head coach yourself it seems like the final seconds of a game might be a good time to find your voice if the rookie coach leaves out important details.

This is the thing. There is no way you can stop a team from tanking if they want to. All it really takes is inappropriate substitutions and, as you are saying, NOT taking a few key steps or giving a few key instructions.

Well, we've had plenty of puzzling substitutions in winnable games. We've had defensive set-ups after a time-out and who is on the floor? Offensive players. Hmmmmmmm. That loss to Charlotte. No Sam on the floor. Why? Melo on the floor. Why? He clearly let Kemba convert. I've called him names, but if anyone wants to debate it, all I can say is knock off the BS and roll the tape. It is there in broad daylight. We let Kemba convert.

Now why? What is going on?

Think about it for a moment.

What did Phil have to do to re-sign Melo? Other than wave a fat stack in his face, I mean.

He had to say "Look we suck. You know it, let's not mess around. You want to win Melo? Let me help you. But you've got to help me. We need to tank."

Now that does not mean he had that conversation with any other player. The only one necessary was Melo. He could not have that conversation with Stat. Amar'e still thinks this can be a legit season. Poor guy. He's clueless.

Dolan? Phil had to sell him on this. He may have painted it as Plan B even if it was his true Plan A.

And Fish? No way Phil did not say "Look, $25M means we tank in year 1. Got a problem with that?" Of course not!

I don't think Fish is anywhere near as clueless as many are thinking here.

Way too many literal thinkers here.

This is a chess match with the rest of the NBA. Phil is positioning. I don't drink Phil kool-aid. I don't think we got fair value out of Tyson, but it was one move so I still have to see what else he can cook up. Don't forget, he did draft Thanasis who I think will make people very happy. It takes a half dozen moves before you can really judge a GM.

But tanking is very much a plan even if it was Plan B. Now it is Plan A. But Phil is slick and he's fooled the fan base already. I like that. It shows he is smarter than most. And it is kind of Zen, because Zen masters are usually ornery and clever.

Splat wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:it makes perfect sense when you think in terms of tanking. Like you said if Fisher stinks and they wanted to win, one of those veteran coaches would've had them foul. As for Melo rushing back from injury & playing heavy minutes I already explained the 2 reasons for that

I do think that was Melo's doing more than the club's. The minutes played is another thing.

I still expect Melo to be given a vacation this season. It's coming. They're basically priming the story now so they can sell him as needing rest to recover from a sore whatever thingamajiggy.

yea of course

Splat wrote:Trying to determine what Phil is really thinking based on what he publicly states is hilarious. The guy is plenty smart in the game of perception. I see tons of affirmations in response to his comments as if one can take anything he says literally on face value. He has plenty of P.T. Barnum in him and many of you fall for his rap every time.

For instance, whether he wanted to tank or not may not matter. He may embrace the tank now and you can be sure he will say the opposite.

Preserving our future is meaningless GM talk. He'd almost surely trade just about anyone on this roster if the right deal came up.

In F5's quotes above, Phil said nothing that is out of the ordinary. The only thing I think you can derive from it is he has used the public platform to send a message to the players more than once, i.e. get on board or get lost. But he will not call out names and devalue assets just yet.

The only thing Phil can be judged on is what team he assembles. His words are pretty much meaningless at this point.

Very vague in surmising what he'd do as this would apply

To any GM in a position of weakness but let's take what he said

And start plugging in scenarios

Would Phil trade Bargnani for Ersan Illyasova{probably not]

Although Ersan>Bargs by a wide margin

Would Phil trade Smith for Avery Bradley[probably not]

Although Bradley>J.R. by a decent margin

Would Phil trade Amare for Ryan Anderson[probably not]

Although Ryan>Amar'e by a wide margin

Would Phil trade Jose and Larkin for Mo Williams and Kevin Martin[probably not]

Although Mo and K-Mart>Calderon and Crack Baby by a wide margin

Saying "right deal" is ambiguous but I think I get the

Oil that sits beneath the water point

gunsnewing wrote:

Splat wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:it makes perfect sense when you think in terms of tanking. Like you said if Fisher stinks and they wanted to win, one of those veteran coaches would've had them foul. As for Melo rushing back from injury & playing heavy minutes I already explained the 2 reasons for that

I do think that was Melo's doing more than the club's. The minutes played is another thing.

I still expect Melo to be given a vacation this season. It's coming. They're basically priming the story now so they can sell him as needing rest to recover from a sore whatever thingamajiggy.

yea of course

As far as brand is concerned, Melo took $124M from Phil (Dolan) with some kind of understanding about rebuilding. If that means sitting out part of the season, branding and endorsements take a back seat to his obligation to his primary paycheck.

F500ONE wrote:

Vmart wrote:There is a plan in place. Phil won't say it because it's not right to but we must keep losing to get better. With losses comes higher first and second round pick. With that comes infusion of talent. This team needs serious talent up grade.

No way the plan in place from jump season was Tank

You can talk yourself into it by looking at today's results

But my intelligence will not be insulted by it

Oh no? So even if you believe Plan A was to win this year, you still think Phil didn't have a strong Plan B involving tanking readily in mind? And you don't think he wouldn't pivot into Plan B without a second of hesitation once he surmised as much?

There are plenty of signposts planted over 22 games that show this team repeatedly losing games that are not normal vanilla bad luck. It has turned the corner from incidental to orchestrated and you're saying you're too smart to see this? Come on.

The point is even if Phil thought the players would gel enough to put out some kind of interim product, to suggest he didn't have a ready scenario that would get fully behind a tank if the team didn't mesh defies belief.