NardDogNation wrote:

Splat wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:
So you can pose your supposition as fact but the mere expression of my own is an issue? Got it.

As for insight into what one league GM, Danny Ferry, thinks of Melo:

Are you actually upset? I'm making no suppositions about what we'd net in a trade. All I'm saying is if any of us do so, it is merely a supposition. You. Me. Anyone. Don't make it personal. It's just unknowable. And it was merely my opinion Chicago would not give up those players. Its just banter about scenarios nuthin more

Dude, I'm not upset. I can be petty but give me a little more credit than that. All I'm saying is that your presumption that we're "boxed in" with Melo's contract is every bit as speculatory as me assessing his trade value. All we work on as fans are bits and pieces of info that are often 2nd and 3rd hand at best. But Melo's talent is undeniable, so its hard for me to picture Jimmy Butler being the best we can do.

Agreed. They are all suppositions, yours and mine.

NardDogNation wrote:

Splat wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:
So you can pose your supposition as fact but the mere expression of my own is an issue? Got it.

As for insight into what one league GM, Danny Ferry, thinks of Melo:

Are you actually upset? I'm making no suppositions about what we'd net in a trade. All I'm saying is if any of us do so, it is merely a supposition. You. Me. Anyone. Don't make it personal. It's just unknowable. And it was merely my opinion Chicago would not give up those players. Its just banter about scenarios nuthin more

Dude, I'm not upset. I can be petty but give me a little more credit than that. All I'm saying is that your presumption that we're "boxed in" with Melo's contract is every bit as speculatory as me assessing his trade value. All we work on as fans are bits and pieces of info that are often 2nd and 3rd hand at best. But Melo's talent is undeniable, so its hard for me to picture Jimmy Butler being the best we can do.

The real problem in a Melo trade scenario is he holds a no trade clause. So the other team will hold that against the Knicks and not put forth the best possible offer. Especially if there isn't a list of teams he'd go to but simply one, like the Bulls.

F500ONE wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Splat wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:
So you can pose your supposition as fact but the mere expression of my own is an issue? Got it.

As for insight into what one league GM, Danny Ferry, thinks of Melo:

Are you actually upset? I'm making no suppositions about what we'd net in a trade. All I'm saying is if any of us do so, it is merely a supposition. You. Me. Anyone. Don't make it personal. It's just unknowable. And it was merely my opinion Chicago would not give up those players. Its just banter about scenarios nuthin more

Dude, I'm not upset. I can be petty but give me a little more credit than that. All I'm saying is that your presumption that we're "boxed in" with Melo's contract is every bit as speculatory as me assessing his trade value. All we work on as fans are bits and pieces of info that are often 2nd and 3rd hand at best. But Melo's talent is undeniable, so its hard for me to picture Jimmy Butler being the best we can do.

The real problem in a Melo trade scenario is he holds a no trade clause. So the other team will hold that against the Knicks and not put forth the best possible offer. Especially if there isn't a list of teams he'd go to but simply one, like the Bulls.

And lest we forget the Trade Kicker[I believe 15%]

You know the additional amount of money the team

That he would agree to go to has to take on

You know The Kicker that comes in the amount of what

He gave back to us to land those special difference making free agents

That would lead us to a championship

So if he were to be traded end result financially for Melo is 5yrs/$129mil

MUUUUUUWAAAAHHHHHHAAAAAA!!!

So Melo would get his max dollars from us, not his new team just to make this even worse.

newyorknewyork wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:...because I think I would. Melo is my favorite player to watch but I still think our best move is to start building the team from the ground floor up. The reality is that Melo is 30 and is not getting any younger, while the list of potential "gamechangers" we could pursue via free agency is shrinking exponentially. That being the case, we need to move Melo!

Why wouldn't the Bulls still be interested in Melo? Hypothetically speaking, they have the contracts and prospects necessary to make it happen. How about this three way between the Bulls, Celtics and Knicks....

Bulls get Carmelo Anthony, Rajon Rondo, Iman Shumpert and Quincy Acy.

Celtics get Derrick Rose, Cleanthony Early,an $11 million trade exception and $3 million cash (via Knicks).

Knicks get Jeff Green, Gerald Wallace, Jimmy Butler, Doug McDermott, Nikola Mirotic, E'twann Moore and a 2016 pick (either from the Bulls or Celtics).

The deal works cap wise, if anyone was wondering. Chicago would effectively add both a better PG and one of the most lethal scorers in the game, while alleviating the glut they have in their rotation. Would their owner want to commit big money to keep that team together though? The Celtics would avoid losing Rajon for nothing, while getting a comparable talent AND save a bunch of money in the short/long term by getting a team to take their ****ty contracts. Meanwhile, the Knicks would effectively get their tools to start a rebuild, including a 2016 pick to compensate for the one they lost to the Raptors. We now could tank like unholy to get Jahlil Okafor, who would form a great young core with Nikola Mirotic, Jimmy Butler, Tim Hardaway Jr and Doug McDermott. We should also have about $15 million in cap space to pursue a PG (Reggie Jackson) so I could quickly see this team taking shape. Thoughts?

Since we re-signed Melo already you have to give it up until after next season. After we get our lottery pick and after we see what we able to pull in free agency.

Denver traded Melo for a ton of assets and cap space to accelerate there rebuild. 4-5 yrs later they might have to rebuild again. I only say this because If Phil Jackson is the Prez we need him to be then he will make the decisions to put together a strong roster for the long term regardless if Melo is on the roster or not. If having Melo on the team forces him to make bad decisions given the high lottery pick and cap space that we are going to have. As well as tradeable assets in Hardaway Jr and Shumpert. *Maybe* Amare's expiring after the deadline. Then he was going to fail regardless.

As I keep saying. All Phil has to do is keep his draft picks. If Melo becomes an injury problem then we will end up with lottery picks(except next yr).

Knixkik wrote:No thanks in a full rebuild. We haven't had a talent like Melo since Ewing and who knows when we will ever get one again. Teams never trade players like him unless their backs are against the wall. You just keep trying to put the right combination with him like Dallas has with dirk until you run out of time.

knickscity wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:No thanks in a full rebuild. We haven't had a talent like Melo since Ewing and who knows when we will ever get one again. Teams never trade players like him unless their backs are against the wall. You just keep trying to put the right combination with him like Dallas has with dirk until you run out of time.

melo is the perfect 2nd guy. He needs to play with someone who is a better overall player which is not easy

Yep, thats the grave mistake. he's paid as a number 1 when he's actually a second fiddle. he certainly is no Dirk, Dirk is consistent and elite at what he does.

Melo can post and score outside but we could use a Steph Curry type that is quick and lethal. That kind of player who rips apart defenses and makes it impossible to focus on Melo. Then we'd have something. Remember whenever Felton was really active and aggressive it totally changed how good the Knicks played. If I'm Phil I would be looking for that player. In addition I'd want a C who is athletic and a legit shot blocker.

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:...because I think I would. Melo is my favorite player to watch but I still think our best move is to start building the team from the ground floor up. The reality is that Melo is 30 and is not getting any younger, while the list of potential "gamechangers" we could pursue via free agency is shrinking exponentially. That being the case, we need to move Melo!

Why wouldn't the Bulls still be interested in Melo? Hypothetically speaking, they have the contracts and prospects necessary to make it happen. How about this three way between the Bulls, Celtics and Knicks....

Bulls get Carmelo Anthony, Rajon Rondo, Iman Shumpert and Quincy Acy.

Celtics get Derrick Rose, Cleanthony Early,an $11 million trade exception and $3 million cash (via Knicks).

Knicks get Jeff Green, Gerald Wallace, Jimmy Butler, Doug McDermott, Nikola Mirotic, E'twann Moore and a 2016 pick (either from the Bulls or Celtics).

The deal works cap wise, if anyone was wondering. Chicago would effectively add both a better PG and one of the most lethal scorers in the game, while alleviating the glut they have in their rotation. Would their owner want to commit big money to keep that team together though? The Celtics would avoid losing Rajon for nothing, while getting a comparable talent AND save a bunch of money in the short/long term by getting a team to take their ****ty contracts. Meanwhile, the Knicks would effectively get their tools to start a rebuild, including a 2016 pick to compensate for the one they lost to the Raptors. We now could tank like unholy to get Jahlil Okafor, who would form a great young core with Nikola Mirotic, Jimmy Butler, Tim Hardaway Jr and Doug McDermott. We should also have about $15 million in cap space to pursue a PG (Reggie Jackson) so I could quickly see this team taking shape. Thoughts?

Since we re-signed Melo already you have to give it up until after next season. After we get our lottery pick and after we see what we able to pull in free agency.

Denver traded Melo for a ton of assets and cap space to accelerate there rebuild. 4-5 yrs later they might have to rebuild again. I only say this because If Phil Jackson is the Prez we need him to be then he will make the decisions to put together a strong roster for the long term regardless if Melo is on the roster or not. If having Melo on the team forces him to make bad decisions given the high lottery pick and cap space that we are going to have. As well as tradeable assets in Hardaway Jr and Shumpert. *Maybe* Amare's expiring after the deadline. Then he was going to fail regardless.

As I keep saying. All Phil has to do is keep his draft picks. If Melo becomes an injury problem then we will end up with lottery picks(except next yr).

If the past is any indication, other teams will end up with our lottery picks! We can only hope Dolan actually continues to stay out of it and that Phil knows what he's doing.

At the same time Phil could have traded Tyson or Bargs and a future pick for a short term solution or a Greg Monroe to make us competitive today. He could have traded Amare and Hardaway and assets to Philly for the trade exemption and look to use that for another win now move.

But he didn't. So so far so good.

nixluva wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

nixluva wrote:IMO it's not so much finding a guy who's better than Melo but rather just as good but in different areas. We need a too tier ball handler and scorer who can not only make his teammates better but also break down a D and score himself. A younger better version of Jose.

Melo can post and score outside but we could use a Steph Curry type that is quick and lethal. That kind of player who rips apart defenses and makes it impossible to focus on Melo. Then we'd have something. Remember whenever Felton was really active and aggressive it totally changed how good the Knicks played. If I'm Phil I would be looking for that player. In addition I'd want a C who is athletic and a legit shot blocker.

thats fine. I just think its time to face facts that this year was a transition year until we unload the bad contracts. Getting a top draft pick will only help us more

You mean we HOPE that getting a tope draft pick will help us more. The problem is that you really never know what you're gonna get in the draft. It's literally a crap shoot and there's no guarantees. With the FA and trade options Phil has a chance to get a known quantity. That doesn't mean he has to make the same kind of dumb moves we've made in the past for injured guys and cast offs. Phil has a chance to make a solid set of moves to put good talent that fits around Melo. I just don't believe that Phil is looking at the draft as his primary method of remaking this team. It's a part of it but not the biggest part of how he's likely to get this done.

When we had cap space last time we landed

Amar'e and Tyson

This produced the same crap shoot results

I like what having a Top pick means from a strategic standpoint

I would love for this franchise to actually dominate the draft

Sitting where all roads lead to us, every team below us will covet our position

If we have doubts about who that player

Could be we can always trade it down or out for difference making assets

For today and the future, of course those with shortsighted viewpoints

Will never allow themselves to think outside the box

Knixkik wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:No thanks in a full rebuild. We haven't had a talent like Melo since Ewing and who knows when we will ever get one again. Teams never trade players like him unless their backs are against the wall. You just keep trying to put the right combination with him like Dallas has with dirk until you run out of time.

melo is the perfect 2nd guy. He needs to play with someone who is a better overall player which is not easy

That's all well and good but the problem is who are clearcut #1 guys? Lebron, durant, Davis very soon? Who else? Chris Paul hasn't had much success considering how he has a very good #2 and supporting cast. Coaches plan for Melo more than any other player in the league other than maybe lebron and durant so I'm not sure how he can really be a #2 guy. 1A or 1B maybe.

I don't think # 1 and 2 in the Knicks instance is going to be answered by player rankings, wherever you place Melo in the NBA. It is not about getting a player you consider to be higher ranking to play next to Melo. That may not be possible via Free Agency.

The leadership factor is the primary factor, i.e. putting a player next to Melo who has the ability to direct the flow of the offense and set the tone on defense. A two-way alpha to take the leadership from Melo and to bring out his best traits, emphasize what he needs to do better and to minimize his flaws.

That would have been Billups once upon a time in Denver. It will likely have to be a strong-willed PG or a top F/C with elite passing skills who can anchor the triangle offense. Preferably you'd have both.

Marc Gasol may not be such a bad choice after all in that case. Don't know if we have a shot, but he can lead by example and complement Melo.

TripleThreat wrote:

Knixkik wrote:That's all well and good but the problem is who are clearcut #1 guys? Lebron, durant, Davis very soon? Who else?

http://grantland.com/features/carmelo-anthony-new-york-knicks-legacy/

No Escape From New York

With Carmelo Anthony staying with the Knicks, will we ever find out how truly great he can be?
by Bill Simmons on July 15, 2014

This wasn’t one of our happier years at the “You Can Absolutely Win a Title If Carmelo Anthony Is Your Best Player” Fan Club headquarters. Our man missed the 2014 playoffs in the rancid Eastern Conference, then received a rude comeuppance from his new Knicks boss, Phil Jackson, who lobbied him publicly to stick around at a discount price. The Bulls couldn’t carve out enough cap space for him. The Lakers couldn’t offer a good enough supporting cast. The Rockets never gained momentum, for whatever reason. Carmelo ended up re-signing for $122 million for five years, pretending that was the plan all along … even though it wasn’t.

.........The problems start here: Carmelo Anthony is definitely better than your typical All-Star, but he’s not quite a superstar. You know what that makes him? An almost-but-not-quite-superstar. He’s not Leo DiCaprio or Will Smith — he can’t open a movie by himself. He’s more like Seth Rogen or Channing Tatum — he can open the right movie by himself. There’s a big difference.

Here’s something I wrote on July 8, 2010, the day that LeBron took his talents to South Beach.

I need my NBA superstar to sell tickets, generate interest locally and nationally, single-handedly guarantee an average supporting cast 45-50 wins, and potentially be the best player on a Finals team if the other pieces are in place, which means only LeBron, Wade, Howard, Durant and Kobe qualify. There’s a level just a shade below (the Almost-But-Not-Quite-Superstar) with Steve Nash, Dirk Nowitzki, Carmelo Anthony, Brandon Roy, Chris Paul and Deron Williams. (Note: I think Derrick Rose gets there next season.) Then you have elite guys like Bosh, Pau Gasol and Amar’e Stoudemire who need good teammates to help them thrive … and if they don’t have them, you’re heading to the lottery. You know what we call these people? All-Stars.

Sorry, Portland fans — I made a mistake not telling you to take a deep breath before you read that paragraph. My bad. But exactly four years later, those levels look like this.

Superstars: LeBron, Durant.

Almost-But-Not-Quite-Superstars: Blake Griffin, Dwight Howard, Anthony Davis, Carmelo Anthony, Kevin Love, Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook, Paul George.

All-Stars: Stephen Curry, James Harden, LaMarcus Aldridge, Damian Lillard, Tony Parker, Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki, Joakim Noah, Chris Bosh, Derrick Rose (if healthy), Rajon Rondo (if healthy), Kobe Bryant (???).

.......For me, it keeps coming back to one question: Can you win the NBA championship if Carmelo Anthony is your best player?

The short answer: Yes.

You can.

Unfortunately, we need to compare Carmelo to a better player to prove that point. The 2011 Mavericks won the title with a veteran team built around a spectacular coach (Rick Carlisle), an elite rim protector (Tyson Chandler), an elite perimeter defender (Shawn Marion), an elite heat-check guy (Jason Terry), quality 3-point shooting (39.4 percent and 184 made 3s in 21 playoff games), savvy team defense and one historically good scorer with crunch-time chops (Dirk Nowitzki). If you believe Carmelo can lead a championship team, you’re leaning heavily on that 2011 Mavs playbook — you’d need all the elements we just covered, and you’d need Carmelo to unleash a damned good Dirk impression.

Only one problem: Dirk was better than Carmelo is.

Dirk is one of the 20 best basketball players of all time by any calculation. He’s the best foreign player ever not named Hakeem. Of the 10 best forwards ever, he’s behind Bird, LeBron and Duncan, right there with Doc, Elgin and Pettit, and ahead of Malone, Barkley and Rick Barry.5 He won an MVP and a Finals MVP. He made four first-team All-NBA’s and five second-team All-NBA’s. He won 50-plus games for 11 straight years, topped 60 wins three times, made two Finals, beat LeBron and Wade in the Finals, and won a Game 7 in San Antonio during Duncan’s prime.....

.....So could Carmelo morph into 2011 Dirk if you gave him the right situation? We don’t know because he’s never been in the right situation. Why do you think his agents frantically tried to shoehorn him into Chicago’s cap these last few weeks? The money couldn’t work unless the Knicks agreed to a sign-and-trade with Carlos Boozer’s expiring deal (no thanks!) and some future picks (thanks anyway!). As a last gasp, they used the Lakers as negotiating leverage (you better sign-and-trade Melo to Chicago or you’ll lose him for nothing!), only Jackson smartly sniffed it out. That left Carmelo with three choices:

Choice No. 1: Grab $122 million over five years from New York, play with another inferior team, miss the Finals for his 12th straight season, and pin the rest of his prime — which he’s never getting back, by the way — on Jackson’s promise that “We’ll Have Gobs of Cap Space in the Summer of 2015!!!”

Choice No. 2: Grab $97 million over four years from the Lakers, become the new face of the second-greatest NBA franchise ever, move to Southern California, dabble in the whole Hollywood thing (yes, his wife is an actress), pick his own head coach, convince Pau Gasol to re-sign there, hope Kobe spent the summer training with Barry Bonds, Lance Armstrong and A-Rod, hope they can flip Nash’s expiring contract into one more asset, make some noise next spring and hope the Kevins join him in 2015 and 2016. That’s a lot of hoping, by the way.

Choice No. 3: Sign a four-year deal in Chicago for less money (starting around $14-15 million), become the crunch-time guy for an absolutely loaded Bulls team, and answer every question anyone ever asked about him.

I wanted him to sign with Chicago for less money — a wildly unrealistic outcome that was never going to happen. Even typing the sentence “For God’s sake, Carmelo, you’ve made over $135 million in salary already, not counting endorsements and whatever this next deal pays you, so it’s not like you’re a candidate for Broke II

......Why didn’t we ever feel sorry for Carmelo? It’s simple — he placed himself in this situation. He could have waited until the summer of 2011, opted out of his first Nuggets extension and signed with New York as a free agent. Instead, his agents forced a midseason trade that kept his previous contract in place (more money, more leverage). Here’s what that extra money effectively cost them (and Carmelo): Danilo Gallinari, Wilson Chandler, their 2014 first-round pick (turned out to be 11th overall), and a first-round pick swap in 2016. Four super-tradable assets … out the window.

A few other players were involved, including Felton and Timofey Mozgov (sent to Denver) and Billups (sent to New York). And that’s where this deal gets darker. After the 2011 lockout ended, the Knicks used their amnesty on Billups solely to create cap room to sign Tyson Chandler. When Amar’e degenerated into The Artist Formerly Known As Amar’e two seasons ago, they didn’t have an amnesty left to snuff out his remaining $40 million. Whoops. Unable to improve their roster last summer, they stumbled into the comically bad Bargnani trade. This summer, they couldn’t sign any impact players.

All in all, that was a catastrophic trade considering Denver didn’t have any leverage whatsoever. And it happened because Carmelo wanted more money — the same choice he made last weekend, again.....

There was an alternate universe here — Chicago, for less money, for a chance to become Olympic Melo for nine months per year. He would have been flanked by Joakim Noah, Derrick Rose, Jimmy Butler, Doug McDermott, Nikola Mirotic, Kirk Hinrich and a top-five coach (Tom Thibodeau). He would have found his 2011 Mavs. He would have played on a 60-win team, been the crunch-time guy on a title favorite, reminded everyone how terrific he was over and over again. Thirty years from now, long after he has retired and hopefully spent his more than $300 million nest egg wisely, Carmelo will be sitting on the porch of one of his nine houses, nursing a drink, staring out at an ocean and thinking about the unknown. Should he have picked Chicago? How much money is enough money? What’s the price of peace? What would it have been worth to know — to really, truly know? Was he good enough? Could he have gotten there? Did he have it in him?

Instead, he’ll have to settle for people like me: the ones maintaining that he WAS good enough, only it’s an opinion and not a fact.....

I still blame the Walsh administration for the majority of issues we have but Melo deserves his fair share. It still baffles me that Melo would be dumb enough to force a trade here at so high a cost. Fortunately for us, money remained at the forefront of Melo's mind, which prevented him from walking away from us without compensation. Things are bleak now....imagine how bleak it would be if one of the best assets in the league walked out the door! That would be another 15 years without us making the playoffs, easy. The better move would've been to sign and trade him to Chicago but keeping him (and reserving the right to trade him at a later point in time) is by far the next best option.