F500ONE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

fishmike wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Dagger wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Knixkik wrote:But for how long will he sustain that play? And how long will he stay healthy? We used him in some of his best years and traded him when everyone knew he would only decline, it was just a matter of how long he could sustain this type of play (when healthy) until he did show a real decline. The mavs probably figure he can play this well until Nowitzki is done. We got 2 starters from a good team plus a couple of draft picks/prospects. Not sure how high we could have ever sold on him.

Forget it, now he's no longer a Knick, fans begin canonizing him- they no longer acknowledge the very flaws that led them to driving them out of town in the first place.

You have to realize it's a 2 way street. This environment brings out the worst of most people. Actually, as long as Tyson keeps this up, my guess is non-Knicks fans will look at his lower production last year as being more due to a cancerous Knicks environment. Tyson has the individual and team accomplishments (and we have nothing) that will lead most people to give him the benefit of the doubt.

What good is a leader when he can't be a leader in the absence of other leaders? No good at all.

This. Tyson wasn't paid 15 mil just to get 9 pts and 10 boards for a little over 50 games a year. He was paid to lead and because he allegedly had a championship pedigree. Getting owned by Hibbert and then trashing your teammates without taking any accountability for the impact your horrific play had on your team in the playoffs was horrible. Spending the better part of the season chatting up the gm every chance you had and trying to sabotage your coach and team when the team desperately needed you to step up and do what you were getting paid for was the worse. Good riddance.

exactly. But look a the topic starter. Low on logic, high on flinging doodoo.

Tyson was good early on when he could stay on the court. He was good in the 54 win season and he was the guy who rolled over against Hibbert as previously mentioned. Hibbert. This wasnt Dwight Howard who lit him up. Hibbert.

Dude was a part of one great team with one great run. Lets ignore what we saw every day for a couple years and focus on three good weeks.

Knick land. Tyson is a god and Shump is a max player. Oh wait he shot 1-11. Ok lets trade him.

Tyson was DPOY right, which means he had

To have performed better than a 3 week stretch

To be garnished with award, the time to trade him

Was probably mid January to February of last season

But of course we were chasing the 9th seed

Yeah, seriously. He criticizes our logic and then says a guy who had a DPOY and separate all-star season was mostly useless. Maybe I'll have to remind fish never to mention Melo's all-star appearances then.
Yeah, when Tyson was ill he got destroyed by Hibbert. Then next year Hibbert got destroyed in the 2nd round too. If you're in the post-season a lot, you'll have ups and downs.
Let's examine Calderon's history, age, and current "performance" before we talk about Tyson's ability to stay on the court.

Why? Calderon literally has NOTHING to do with this argument and I haven't seen anyone bring him up here to put Tyson down. Do you really need to take a shot at a current Knick to help make an ex Knick look better?

Calderon has everything to do with it. If you're saying 1) you don't regret the trade and 2) Tyson was never on the court, it shouldn't be too hard to see the relevance of Calderon.

can we PLEASE not forget about Felton?

You don't get credit for dumping a player if you're taking on more salary than you gave up

It would depend on the players, no?

either way, Calderon better be damn good since we are locked into him.

I'd have preferred waiving Felton and at least temporarily holding onto Tyson. He's putting up 14 and 14 per 36 right now. Anything remotely close to that and he would have gotten us something much better than Calderon on a long contract.

I don't know how much truth there is to what you're saying about Phil and Tyson. There were also reports that Melo almost left NY to play with Dallas and that one of the reasons was he wanted to keep playing with Tyson.

I can't even imagine what the threads here would look like if Calderon were playing like an all-star and Tyson had missed every game.

I think you're wrong with regards to us getting a better haul if we'd kept Tyson- if we'd left it until the deadline, he'd just be a rental, which diminishes value regardless of how well a player would be playing. Even if we'd waited until now- where would he have fit? OKC would no longer be interested as their season is a disaster. Dallas wouldn't have offered more than they did in June. What teams honestly would have wanted him and given up a high price? Cleveland- maybe, but do we really want to help make them better? Would he honestly have re-signed with them? Miami? We'd be looking at a late first.

True because Tyson would be here

On another rudderless 3-10 team sinking his value more

The time to trade him was last year at deadline, he was in demand

He proved he recovered from being injured early in the season

Not sure if Bonn is posting in a borrowing of time nature

Trying to reason if he's here another half yr, then maybe he gets it together

And actually impacts our W-L column, then no need to trade him

Needless to say another reason waiting this yr to trade him at deadline

Would have been futile because you would have shortened the list

Of suitors not wanting him on a half year rental, not offering anything of value

We would not be 3-10 with an all-star center putting up 14 and 14 per 36 - probably nowhere near 3-10
Regarding the other comments, you can usually get a good feel whether the guy will re-sign anyway before the trade. If he doesn't want to be in the city, the player often leaks to sources that he won't re-sign there. I don't see the rental issue being fatal. I'm sure we could have done better than an overpaid Calderon. I think just keeping the cap space would have been better anyway. Dallas *more than* replaced him him with Jameer Nelson ($2.7 mil per) and Devin Harris (3.8 mil).

We pretty much were that when he returned from injury last yr

And his per 36 were close to the same look at February

Stop acting as if Tyson hasn't been here

Playing heavy minutes while the team stunk

I do agree with your premise of maximizing his value on trade

And whether the Dallas deal provided enough

Everything I else stated remains, the key is get the most on return

Not settle in any way, even in hoping for best possible outcome to come to fruition

I don't think what you're saying about the Feb #s is correct but I'll let you post the #s. I doubt his blocked shots were the same either as they are now. It's hard to imagine how replacing Dalembert (2.9 PPG, 4.6 RPG) with a guy averaging a double double wouldn't be a big improvement.

I would expect the # Tyson fan club to have those readily available

I said close right, well let's start off with

February's grotesque record we were 2-11 full month of basketball

Tyson played all 13gms

Logged 33min/gm posted numbers of

10.2pts/11.3reb/1.2blks/1.2stl/1ast %61fg

This year a month of basketball here are his numbers

Tyson has played all 12gms

Logged 28min/gm posted numbers of

10.9pts/10.8reb/1.7blks/.5stl/1.5ast 69%fg

I doubt he saves us from 3-10, we might be 4-9 at best

But his possible impact wouldn't have justified the means

That's useless if you don't adjust for minutes played. He's putting up similar or slightly better overall production in 28 min now than 33 min last Feb. That's a huge difference.
You replace Dalembert's 3 and 4 with Tyson's double double and I think we're more like 7-6. If you want to cite history, then we were roughly a .500 team with Tyson, and even .450 last year. The idea that we'd be winning at a .300 rate has no historical justification, and certainly not when Tyson is playing the best basketball he ever has. When Melo and Tyson were playing well, we usually were well above .500 actually.

Bonn1997 wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

fishmike wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Dagger wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Knixkik wrote:But for how long will he sustain that play? And how long will he stay healthy? We used him in some of his best years and traded him when everyone knew he would only decline, it was just a matter of how long he could sustain this type of play (when healthy) until he did show a real decline. The mavs probably figure he can play this well until Nowitzki is done. We got 2 starters from a good team plus a couple of draft picks/prospects. Not sure how high we could have ever sold on him.

Forget it, now he's no longer a Knick, fans begin canonizing him- they no longer acknowledge the very flaws that led them to driving them out of town in the first place.

You have to realize it's a 2 way street. This environment brings out the worst of most people. Actually, as long as Tyson keeps this up, my guess is non-Knicks fans will look at his lower production last year as being more due to a cancerous Knicks environment. Tyson has the individual and team accomplishments (and we have nothing) that will lead most people to give him the benefit of the doubt.

What good is a leader when he can't be a leader in the absence of other leaders? No good at all.

This. Tyson wasn't paid 15 mil just to get 9 pts and 10 boards for a little over 50 games a year. He was paid to lead and because he allegedly had a championship pedigree. Getting owned by Hibbert and then trashing your teammates without taking any accountability for the impact your horrific play had on your team in the playoffs was horrible. Spending the better part of the season chatting up the gm every chance you had and trying to sabotage your coach and team when the team desperately needed you to step up and do what you were getting paid for was the worse. Good riddance.

exactly. But look a the topic starter. Low on logic, high on flinging doodoo.

Tyson was good early on when he could stay on the court. He was good in the 54 win season and he was the guy who rolled over against Hibbert as previously mentioned. Hibbert. This wasnt Dwight Howard who lit him up. Hibbert.

Dude was a part of one great team with one great run. Lets ignore what we saw every day for a couple years and focus on three good weeks.

Knick land. Tyson is a god and Shump is a max player. Oh wait he shot 1-11. Ok lets trade him.

Tyson was DPOY right, which means he had

To have performed better than a 3 week stretch

To be garnished with award, the time to trade him

Was probably mid January to February of last season

But of course we were chasing the 9th seed

Yeah, seriously. He criticizes our logic and then says a guy who had a DPOY and separate all-star season was mostly useless. Maybe I'll have to remind fish never to mention Melo's all-star appearances then.
Yeah, when Tyson was ill he got destroyed by Hibbert. Then next year Hibbert got destroyed in the 2nd round too. If you're in the post-season a lot, you'll have ups and downs.
Let's examine Calderon's history, age, and current "performance" before we talk about Tyson's ability to stay on the court.

Why? Calderon literally has NOTHING to do with this argument and I haven't seen anyone bring him up here to put Tyson down. Do you really need to take a shot at a current Knick to help make an ex Knick look better?

Calderon has everything to do with it. If you're saying 1) you don't regret the trade and 2) Tyson was never on the court, it shouldn't be too hard to see the relevance of Calderon.

can we PLEASE not forget about Felton?

You don't get credit for dumping a player if you're taking on more salary than you gave up

It would depend on the players, no?

either way, Calderon better be damn good since we are locked into him.

I'd have preferred waiving Felton and at least temporarily holding onto Tyson. He's putting up 14 and 14 per 36 right now. Anything remotely close to that and he would have gotten us something much better than Calderon on a long contract.

I don't know how much truth there is to what you're saying about Phil and Tyson. There were also reports that Melo almost left NY to play with Dallas and that one of the reasons was he wanted to keep playing with Tyson.

I can't even imagine what the threads here would look like if Calderon were playing like an all-star and Tyson had missed every game.

I think you're wrong with regards to us getting a better haul if we'd kept Tyson- if we'd left it until the deadline, he'd just be a rental, which diminishes value regardless of how well a player would be playing. Even if we'd waited until now- where would he have fit? OKC would no longer be interested as their season is a disaster. Dallas wouldn't have offered more than they did in June. What teams honestly would have wanted him and given up a high price? Cleveland- maybe, but do we really want to help make them better? Would he honestly have re-signed with them? Miami? We'd be looking at a late first.

True because Tyson would be here

On another rudderless 3-10 team sinking his value more

The time to trade him was last year at deadline, he was in demand

He proved he recovered from being injured early in the season

Not sure if Bonn is posting in a borrowing of time nature

Trying to reason if he's here another half yr, then maybe he gets it together

And actually impacts our W-L column, then no need to trade him

Needless to say another reason waiting this yr to trade him at deadline

Would have been futile because you would have shortened the list

Of suitors not wanting him on a half year rental, not offering anything of value

We would not be 3-10 with an all-star center putting up 14 and 14 per 36 - probably nowhere near 3-10
Regarding the other comments, you can usually get a good feel whether the guy will re-sign anyway before the trade. If he doesn't want to be in the city, the player often leaks to sources that he won't re-sign there. I don't see the rental issue being fatal. I'm sure we could have done better than an overpaid Calderon. I think just keeping the cap space would have been better anyway. Dallas *more than* replaced him him with Jameer Nelson ($2.7 mil per) and Devin Harris (3.8 mil).

We pretty much were that when he returned from injury last yr

And his per 36 were close to the same look at February

Stop acting as if Tyson hasn't been here

Playing heavy minutes while the team stunk

I do agree with your premise of maximizing his value on trade

And whether the Dallas deal provided enough

Everything I else stated remains, the key is get the most on return

Not settle in any way, even in hoping for best possible outcome to come to fruition

I don't think what you're saying about the Feb #s is correct but I'll let you post the #s. I doubt his blocked shots were the same either as they are now. It's hard to imagine how replacing Dalembert (2.9 PPG, 4.6 RPG) with a guy averaging a double double wouldn't be a big improvement.

I would expect the # Tyson fan club to have those readily available

I said close right, well let's start off with

February's grotesque record we were 2-11 full month of basketball

Tyson played all 13gms

Logged 33min/gm posted numbers of

10.2pts/11.3reb/1.2blks/1.2stl/1ast %61fg

This year a month of basketball here are his numbers

Tyson has played all 12gms

Logged 28min/gm posted numbers of

10.9pts/10.8reb/1.7blks/.5stl/1.5ast 69%fg

I doubt he saves us from 3-10, we might be 4-9 at best

But his possible impact wouldn't have justified the means

That's useless if you don't adjust for minutes played. He's putting up similar or slightly better overall production in 28 min now than 33 min last Feb. That's a huge difference.
You replace Dalembert's 3 and 4 with Tyson's double double and I think we're more like 7-6. If you want to cite history, then we were roughly a .500 team with Tyson, and even .450 last year. The idea that we'd be winning at a .300 rate has no historical justification, and certainly not when Tyson is playing the best basketball he ever has. When Melo and Tyson were playing well, we usually were well above .500 actually.

Bonn you can fudge the numbers a tad

As he was up in some and down in others

But you have to factor paces between offenses between this and last

And defensive principles under Woodson and Fisher

One thing we can say Tyson did win DPOY under Woodson

Overall still trash success W-L as a team with him anchoring it

We can't project his individual and team success unto Fisher

The stronger evidence is career trends

The numbers were close as neither min/gm hit 36

From last yr to this yr

We're consistently getting rocked by double digits

Throughout qrts half the games we've played thus far

F500ONE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:How do you know Tyson would be putting up these numbers in the Triangle? Is not like Dal is putting up the numbers he usually do.

Well it shouldn't affect rebounds or blocked shots. So that's 14 rbs and 2+ blocks per 36. Actually anything remotely close to that would be huge. Points? I don't know but it's safe to say it would be a lot better than Dalembert's 2.9 PPG.

It simply means numbers fall off elsewhere

As in Shump probably doesn't average as much

He wasn't going to make a difference with this team

And his roadside conversations with Mills and the likes

Proved he didn't have the Maverick in him

To change things here with a permanence

gunsnewing wrote:^Yet people still want to trade our 2nd leading scorer and most efficient offensive player, Shumpert, for late round draft picks.

Well I was perfectly willing to trade Tyson for a better deal, especially at the deadline. There's only a few players in the league I wouldn't trade.
With a late first round pic, you could easily get half the production for a tenth the price of Shumpert

gunsnewing wrote:^Yet people still want to trade our 2nd leading scorer and most efficient offensive player, Shumpert, for late round draft picks.

Actually Pablo is the knicks most efficient player in this early season. He has even increased his usg from 9.3 to 12.3, the highest in his 3 years. Keep shooting Pablo!

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:How do you know Tyson would be putting up these numbers in the Triangle? Is not like Dal is putting up the numbers he usually do.

Well it shouldn't affect rebounds or blocked shots. So that's 14 rbs and 2+ blocks per 36. Actually anything remotely close to that would be huge. Points? I don't know but it's safe to say it would be a lot better than Dalembert's 2.9 PPG.

Is 9.7 rebs and 3.1 blks per 36 close to that? The rebs were hiring the last I checked so as the sample size( did someone say sample size) grows maybe the rebs per 36 increase. Anyway, Sam's scoring has dropped more than 50% of his recent production and even more if you consider his career avg. What if Tyson's scoring numbers dropped by 50%. Who would trade for Tyson's contract when he is not receiving dunks/layups to increase his fg%/TS%?

I know Tyson is a devastating offensive player in the High PnR that causing problems for defenses. I am not sure he would be that same player in the triangle. Then comes the sulking and an uncomfortable Tyson is not the Tyson everyone loves.

Tyson would be awful in the triangle though I would have love to have seen it. Tyson turns around in the high post and is forced to shoot a 15 footer with that scared shytless look in his eyes.

Also, where would he get all those rebounds on this team? Everyone of the opponents shots go in.

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:so tyson gets the ball in the high post, players cut, tysons defender leaves him ... what happens next?

Continue to holds the ball while the secs tick then breaks the emergency glass with 5 secs left and passes it to another player who takes the contested jumper saving Tyson efficiency.

exactly.

Some good quotables here

http://espn.go.com/dallas/nba/story/_/id/11935677/tyson-chandler-felt-scapegoat-s-new-york-knicks

Chandler will face the Knicks on Wednesday night for the first time since the trade to Dallas. Chandler, considered a leader in the Mavericks' locker room and a negative influence in the Knicks', thinks the difference is his teammates' tolerance for his attempts to hold them accountable.

"I think people can take it differently and make it what they want to make it," Chandler said when asked whether his leadership attempts were lost in translation in New York. "It also depends on where your mind is. If everybody is locked in and they want to win and they know I'm in it 100 percent and they're in it 100 percent, nobody's sensitive. But if there's other agendas, it's going to make things sensitive."

Knicks players, including star Carmelo Anthony, have mentioned a lack of finger-pointing as evidence of improved chemistry this season. The Mavs targeted Chandler on the trade market in part because of the character he displayed during his previous stint in Dallas, when he was considered the emotional leader of the 2010-11 NBA champions.

Chandler is averaging 10.3 points and 10.3 rebounds for the 10-5 Mavs entering his reunion game with the 4-11 Knicks.

"Yeah, he's such a horrible influence, I can see why they got rid of him," Mavs owner Mark Cuban said sarcastically.

"He's been a great help, great impact on the court, off the court. Everything we thought he was, he was."

Chandler readily admits being disappointed in his performance last season, when he had to work his way back into shape after his injury. He excelled in his first two seasons in New York after signing a four-year, $55.4 million deal after the 2011 lockout, when Cuban made the salary-cap-influenced decision not to make him a multiyear offer.

Chandler was the NBA's defensive player of the year in 2011-12 and an All-Star in 2012-13, helping the Knicks reach the playoffs in both seasons and advance a round in the second. In September, Chandler expressed his displeasure with comments from Jackson that he considered "a shot at [his] character of professionalism."

"I just wanted to air it out," Chandler said. "Honestly, after that, I was done with it. My agent is like a big brother to me. He gave me a phone call and was like, 'Are you done?' I was like, 'Yeah, I'm done.'

"In all honesty, I'm so focused on the Mavericks that the Knicks are in my rearview mirror. I don't mean that in a negative way, but it's in the past, and I'm moving forward."