nixluva wrote:I'm still trying to understand why it matters what we pay Phil? His salary doesn't effect anything regarding the roster. It simply should NEVER be brought up. Call it a multiple Ring tax or whatever but it's stupid to be concerned with how much we pay an executive.

This is so early in the process that threads like this are almost embarrassing. What do we really have to discuss when not enough time has passed for any valid evaluation to be made? I can't recall any Prez/GM being evaluated after 6 games.

His pay set a precedent, which obviously escapes

Your ability to see the trickle down affect

nixluva wrote:I'm still trying to understand why it matters what we pay Phil? His salary doesn't effect anything regarding the roster. It simply should NEVER be brought up. Call it a multiple Ring tax or whatever but it's stupid to be concerned with how much we pay an executive.

This is so early in the process that threads like this are almost embarrassing. What do we really have to discuss when not enough time has passed for any valid evaluation to be made? I can't recall any Prez/GM being evaluated after 6 games.

You don't get it then. This thread is only embarrassing if you never dig for clues to determine if the pie is in mid-air prior to getting a pie in your face.

This thread has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not six games have transpired. It has everything to do with seeing the patterns that have carried over into this season and what part of that Phil has inculcated. AND HE MOST CERTAINLY HAS CONTINUED BAD PATTERNS OF THE KNICKS ORGANIZATION as very clearly noted by handing out a very high risk, over-priced, no trade, 5 year contract to a player who would almost never be the best player on a championship team.

Now if you were paying attention to the conversation and not looping, you'd see the point was clearly made why it matters what Phil is paid. Why do we have to spell it out to you all over again why that affects everything about a person's motivation? If Melo is motivated by the biggest paycheck, what makes you think Zen Bob is immune to that allure?

You think Phil is coming here for $4M a year. Not a chance. $12M has everything to do with it.

I stopped bothering you about your sunshine bias, so you can stop with the Mommy posts telling people they are impatient and embarrassing. What's embarrassing is not knowing what the points being made are and then trying to shame the thread when you don't even understand what is being said.

I have no problem with you having your POV. Accept others don't agree with you and everything functions just fine.

H1AND1 wrote:
I was just about to post something similar in response to your other post above. I've been saying this since Phil turned around and signed Melo after being publicly seemingly lukewarm on bringing him back: I think Phil wanted to resign melo (more on that in a second) but wanted Melo to think that Phil wasn't set on it as some sort of Zen mind meld ego check sort've thing. I think it was all part of his plan to turn him into a "winner" a la Shaq,Jordan, Kobe, etc.

I also think 100% Phil wanted to bring him back, too. It wasn't mandated though I'm sure Phil regaled Dolan before he was hired how he could turn Melo around. And the thing is Melo actually still has upside as we saw in the Olympics where he played team ball and how much more effective he could be IF he ever became more of an orchestrator. He actually still has "a couple levels he could go" as Phil Said himself!

And here is where the hubris comes in, I like that word for it. Phil has literally never "lost" in his career. Sure he's lost in the finals but he's left every job he's had as a winner: Knicks as a player and then Bulls and Lakers as a coach. I think he believes 1000% that he can mold Melo into a player who suceeds in the triangle and then build a winning team around him. As I said he must've said that to Dolan before he was hired otherwise Dolan wouldn't of hired him. Now he has autonomy, but in that context. Anyway, maybe he finally meets his match with Melo and the Knicks and he finally fails in a professional sense? We'll see. As much as I've criticized Melo I do think that 6 games isn't enough to say its a lost cause. Let's see after a couple months how he's playing though I admit it's not an encouraging start. This season was always goin to he a transitional year and talk of playoffs was just talk anyone could see this roster was not going to contend or be very good. How many pkayers besides Melo do the Knicks have who'd he starters on a contending team? Or name how many Knicks would even in the rotation on a team like the Spurs, clippers, or Bulls?

Fortunately Phil is smart as you said, splat. Because I do agree that he is certain he can turn the knicks around. And finally one more thing: I think in the back of his mind the salary cap skyrocketing in a couple seasons also was in the back of his mind when signing Carmelo. It's amazing but Melos contract could be a drop in the bucket if the cap rises as much as some say. It's possible, I've read, that in 2017 the Knicks could have enough space to add 2, TWO (!!!) more max agents on top of Carmelo. That's pretty crazy.

Yeah, I think he may have overestimated his mind juju (per bold above). He's not the coach and I seriously doubt he's going out for bagels and the Arts & Leisure section with Melo on Sunday mornings, so his influence is on the managerial process, scouting, deals, etc. more than daily influence that molds the players themselves.

Per cap increase, I had broached this when the future cap projections were announced due to the TV deal and said as much. With that POV, it is like he is stockpiling Melo for a season or two until he can hire a couple more "stars". The only problem with that is Melo could age real fast in the next 2 seasons and be a lead weight contract.

But wait, there's more. The possibility the best available players don't want to team up with Melo has been stated before. It is one thing to join the Bulls, but it is another thing when it's "your team" and people join you. Can Melo be non-alpha to a player of equal or higher stature? And I say that with a mild grimace since we're talking alpha vanity, not alpha leader.

And, the additional risk in stockpiling Melo in advance of other signings is that if between now and then Melo really is a black hole or negative influence, it just poisons the club regardless of who they get. Then its bye-bye new culture and Fish has a dumb star with moodswings to deal with instead.

I think he has been underrated as a supertoxin until now, but if he can't get his crap together and learn something, be a team player and move the ball & move off the ball within a prescribed system, the team is going to implode and that is not how you build for the future.

There is still time. We have all season to see what's up, but Melo clearly has issues already. He's a fukking moron already when talking to press. He shows zero self-awareness and no team ethic. He's a big zero as a centerpiece this season, so he has already dug a hole for the team emotionally. Let's see if he can do more than have a hot streak and talk about that like he has found a magic elixir. Let's see if he actually changes his mindset and becomes something more than an overpaid child.

nixluva wrote:I'm still trying to understand why it matters what we pay Phil? His salary doesn't effect anything regarding the roster. It simply should NEVER be brought up. Call it a multiple Ring tax or whatever but it's stupid to be concerned with how much we pay an executive.

This is so early in the process that threads like this are almost embarrassing. What do we really have to discuss when not enough time has passed for any valid evaluation to be made? I can't recall any Prez/GM being evaluated after 6 games.

I'd understand the legacy "tax" if Phil came to coach, which is what his legacy is based on. We paid him that "tax" to do something he has no track record of ever doing. That, along with his age, were the reasons why I thought it was pertinent to bring up his salary. As I said before, this is a young man's game and one has to wonder if Phil can do the leg work it takes to run things. Why live with that concern when we could've gotten Mausi Ujiri who is a proven commodity and costs a third of the price of Phil's deal?

Whatever the case, we've got Phil so that's besides the point. I haven't been thrilled with his moves as far as player personnel goes BUT things are still early. That aside, I LOVE the Derek Fisher hire and the culture he is establishing. I just hope that Phil hires a deputy that he can groom for his job and/or alleviate some of the burden he faces on a day to day.

Splat wrote:I've been thinking all morning about what Phil Jackson is up to.

The official story is 11 rings, Zen Mucky Muck, coming home to NYC, cherry on top of his career, etc.

Now I've said it is possible there is a bit of hustle aspect to all of this. After all, the man extracted an amazing chunk of money out of Dolan for his services. Players get that dough, but management? OK, so he got paid. Draw your own conclusions, but if the one stipulation was he had to retain Melo, then it was a tainted deal.

Of course, the official story is total autonomy. Maybe he has it now (or for now), yet if it came with terms like this then it is suspect as to Phil's motivations.

One of the first things I posted that drew major objections was suggestions the things Phil and Fish say publicly are often going to have political motivations and to believe everything they say so literally is just naive. Boy did people get hot over that. As if everything they say is the whole story and unvarnished truth. As if.

But this morning I felt there was one more angle I had not fully considered, which is Phil may just think he is above it all, i.e. better and smarter than everyone and that he can work miracles.

This is what I call Jackson's potential Hubris Factor. I like the guy, so I'm not predisposed to saying these things, but the more I look at all the angles, the more I think this is very much likely. If Phil really thinks his poop don't stink, he may have the ability to delude himself into thinking he can:

Outfox other GMs

Reinvent Carmelo Anthony

Implement the Triangle System without the players capable of running it

Think about it. All that stuff in pre-season about how he was going to help Melo find another level or two higher in his game and make him the true superstar he was always meant to be, I think Phil was either:

1) Arrogant enough to believe that; or

2) Saying that to justify the signing, because he wanted the job and the paycheck.

Or both. Either way, I think Phil is still a very sharp guy. I respect his intelligence, but I'm not completely comfortable with his motivations. As Triple Threat has pointed out, he really already has one foot out the door. He is that old, Donnie Walsh old, with just as many physical ailments as Walsh had. Five years? We'll see.

But there are other very sharp GMs who know what they are doing. And we signed a non-max player to a max contract and that to me is pretty damn suspect, because either Phil has his own personal financial agenda or his hubris got the better of him and he psyched himself into believing he would transform Melo into his next mini-Kobe Jordan.

Whatever the deal with Phil is, something is off in my estimation as the Melo signing does not add up to either common sense or full autonomy. In other words, Phil was compromised from the very beginning by his own greed or an overestimation of his own abilities.

Its possible yet at the same time he made it clear that Melo wasn't those guys. I can't speak for Phil's agenda or thought process though it will be made very clear this off season or possibly some time during the season.

For me though it comes down to upside vs downside, but most importantly how manageable is the downside. And really all Phil has to do is keep the draft picks and manage the cap, that's it. If in 5yrs we don't win any championships but we have 4 first round draft picks and a healthy cap situation to show for it then fans can live with that. If Melo gets injured and turns into an Amare or Houston type of contract. Then we will have lottery picks to fall back on if he keeps his picks. If Melo doesn't perform at his 124mil tag its not the end of the world if we keep our draft picks and manage the cap.

When Isiah traded for Marbury looking back he got incredible value on that deal. Lampe & Milos turned into nothing and the 2 first round picks were only valuable due to the crappy moves made afterward. And at the end of the day if Isiah just kept his draft picks going forward Ariza, Aldrige and Noah could have been the front line even after trading for Marbury making the team well prepared to move forward if Marbury didn't work out. Hopefully we learn from that bit of history. Taking a chance on a Melo is apart of basketball. Just have to make sure you manage the downside properly.

There are signs that Phil is looking with a long term vision though. Hiring a rookie coach, not trading Amare & or Bargs and giving up a bunch of assets to do it. Comments about avoiding being in the luxary tax. So we will see.

Denver Nuggets traded Melo for more assets then we would be able to trade Melo for today and yet 5yrs later they missed the playoffs, are 1-5 right now. But at least they had that one 62win season which they lost in the first round again(Can't blame Melo's chucking for that one).

BRIGGS wrote:

Splat wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:
I was just about to post something similar in response to your other post above. I've been saying this since Phil turned around and signed Melo after being publicly seemingly lukewarm on bringing him back: I think Phil wanted to resign melo (more on that in a second) but wanted Melo to think that Phil wasn't set on it as some sort of Zen mind meld ego check sort've thing. I think it was all part of his plan to turn him into a "winner" a la Shaq,Jordan, Kobe, etc.

I also think 100% Phil wanted to bring him back, too. It wasn't mandated though I'm sure Phil regaled Dolan before he was hired how he could turn Melo around. And the thing is Melo actually still has upside as we saw in the Olympics where he played team ball and how much more effective he could be IF he ever became more of an orchestrator. He actually still has "a couple levels he could go" as Phil Said himself!

And here is where the hubris comes in, I like that word for it. Phil has literally never "lost" in his career. Sure he's lost in the finals but he's left every job he's had as a winner: Knicks as a player and then Bulls and Lakers as a coach. I think he believes 1000% that he can mold Melo into a player who suceeds in the triangle and then build a winning team around him. As I said he must've said that to Dolan before he was hired otherwise Dolan wouldn't of hired him. Now he has autonomy, but in that context. Anyway, maybe he finally meets his match with Melo and the Knicks and he finally fails in a professional sense? We'll see. As much as I've criticized Melo I do think that 6 games isn't enough to say its a lost cause. Let's see after a couple months how he's playing though I admit it's not an encouraging start. This season was always goin to he a transitional year and talk of playoffs was just talk anyone could see this roster was not going to contend or be very good. How many pkayers besides Melo do the Knicks have who'd he starters on a contending team? Or name how many Knicks would even in the rotation on a team like the Spurs, clippers, or Bulls?

Fortunately Phil is smart as you said, splat. Because I do agree that he is certain he can turn the knicks around. And finally one more thing: I think in the back of his mind the salary cap skyrocketing in a couple seasons also was in the back of his mind when signing Carmelo. It's amazing but Melos contract could be a drop in the bucket if the cap rises as much as some say. It's possible, I've read, that in 2017 the Knicks could have enough space to add 2, TWO (!!!) more max agents on top of Carmelo. That's pretty crazy.

Yeah, I think he may have overestimated his mind juju (per bold above). He's not the coach and I seriously doubt he's going out for bagels and the Arts & Leisure section with Melo on Sunday mornings, so his influence is on the managerial process, scouting, deals, etc. more than daily influence that molds the players themselves.

Per cap increase, I had broached this when the future cap projections were announced due to the TV deal and said as much. With that POV, it is like he is stockpiling Melo for a season or two until he can hire a couple more "stars". The only problem with that is Melo could age real fast in the next 2 seasons and be a lead weight contract.

But wait, there's more. The possibility the best available players don't want to team up with Melo has been stated before. It is one thing to join the Bulls, but it is another thing when it's "your team" and people join you. Can Melo be non-alpha to a player of equal or higher stature? And I say that with a mild grimace since we're talking alpha vanity, not alpha leader.

And, the additional risk in stockpiling Melo in advance of other signings is that if between now and then Melo really is a black hole or negative influence, it just poisons the club regardless of who they get. Then its bye-bye new culture and Fish has a dumb star with moodswings to deal with instead.

I think he has been underrated as a supertoxin until now, but if he can't get his crap together and learn something, be a team player and move the ball & move off the ball within a prescribed system, the team is going to implode and that is not how you build for the future.

There is still time. We have all season to see what's up, but Melo clearly has issues already. He's a fukking moron already when talking to press. He shows zero self-awareness and no team ethic. He's a big zero as a centerpiece this season, so he has already dug a hole for the team emotionally. Let's see if he can do more than have a hot streak and talk about that like he has found a magic elixir. Let's see if he actually changes his mindset and becomes something more than an overpaid child.

Put Melo at stretch 4 and be done with it. He IS one of the best stretch 4's in the game. I don't like him as a star 3 because hes not. But he is an NBA all star stretch 4. If we consider Melo our Dirk--hes fine. How many assists does Dirk make--umm less than Melo makes and they are comparable rebounders/scorers. If Phil Jackson wants to make what Melo is not(kobe Jordan Lebron) but understand who he is--stretch 4--then everything will be fine. Also who says we HAVE to stick with the triangle offense. Why so rigid? Pat Riley changed his way of thinking and they nearly won 4 championships.
The Knicks need to follow the Mavs a bit and sprinkle in some Spurs.

We have some decent long term pieces. Now lets concentrate on enhancing that instead of crying. I accept that this years team is a disaster cluster fkc. BUT I also believe we have a few decent pieces INCLUDING an all star stretch 4.

I think they had to try things out and see how they worked. Experimentation is part of the process. You can go in with plans but it's the games that show you what is really capable. In the end they may just use Melo at the 4 much as they did last night. It's going to be a bit hard to judge due to the injuries we've had at guard. Still it's a long way to go and this is really early in the process.

I'm just not on board with the "Grassy knoll" crowd. Everything doesn't have to be some kind of NBA espionage with the Knicks front office. Phil wants to win and we don't know his full plan or what adjustments to that plan he'll make based on what he sees this year. Some around here don't seem to trust his instincts. Sounds like some actually doubt his ability to run this franchise. In any event we're all gonna see what he does but it's not a short term project.

F500ONE wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Splat wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:
I was just about to post something similar in response to your other post above. I've been saying this since Phil turned around and signed Melo after being publicly seemingly lukewarm on bringing him back: I think Phil wanted to resign melo (more on that in a second) but wanted Melo to think that Phil wasn't set on it as some sort of Zen mind meld ego check sort've thing. I think it was all part of his plan to turn him into a "winner" a la Shaq,Jordan, Kobe, etc.

I also think 100% Phil wanted to bring him back, too. It wasn't mandated though I'm sure Phil regaled Dolan before he was hired how he could turn Melo around. And the thing is Melo actually still has upside as we saw in the Olympics where he played team ball and how much more effective he could be IF he ever became more of an orchestrator. He actually still has "a couple levels he could go" as Phil Said himself!

And here is where the hubris comes in, I like that word for it. Phil has literally never "lost" in his career. Sure he's lost in the finals but he's left every job he's had as a winner: Knicks as a player and then Bulls and Lakers as a coach. I think he believes 1000% that he can mold Melo into a player who suceeds in the triangle and then build a winning team around him. As I said he must've said that to Dolan before he was hired otherwise Dolan wouldn't of hired him. Now he has autonomy, but in that context. Anyway, maybe he finally meets his match with Melo and the Knicks and he finally fails in a professional sense? We'll see. As much as I've criticized Melo I do think that 6 games isn't enough to say its a lost cause. Let's see after a couple months how he's playing though I admit it's not an encouraging start. This season was always goin to he a transitional year and talk of playoffs was just talk anyone could see this roster was not going to contend or be very good. How many pkayers besides Melo do the Knicks have who'd he starters on a contending team? Or name how many Knicks would even in the rotation on a team like the Spurs, clippers, or Bulls?

Fortunately Phil is smart as you said, splat. Because I do agree that he is certain he can turn the knicks around. And finally one more thing: I think in the back of his mind the salary cap skyrocketing in a couple seasons also was in the back of his mind when signing Carmelo. It's amazing but Melos contract could be a drop in the bucket if the cap rises as much as some say. It's possible, I've read, that in 2017 the Knicks could have enough space to add 2, TWO (!!!) more max agents on top of Carmelo. That's pretty crazy.

Yeah, I think he may have overestimated his mind juju (per bold above). He's not the coach and I seriously doubt he's going out for bagels and the Arts & Leisure section with Melo on Sunday mornings, so his influence is on the managerial process, scouting, deals, etc. more than daily influence that molds the players themselves.

Per cap increase, I had broached this when the future cap projections were announced due to the TV deal and said as much. With that POV, it is like he is stockpiling Melo for a season or two until he can hire a couple more "stars". The only problem with that is Melo could age real fast in the next 2 seasons and be a lead weight contract.

But wait, there's more. The possibility the best available players don't want to team up with Melo has been stated before. It is one thing to join the Bulls, but it is another thing when it's "your team" and people join you. Can Melo be non-alpha to a player of equal or higher stature? And I say that with a mild grimace since we're talking alpha vanity, not alpha leader.

And, the additional risk in stockpiling Melo in advance of other signings is that if between now and then Melo really is a black hole or negative influence, it just poisons the club regardless of who they get. Then its bye-bye new culture and Fish has a dumb star with moodswings to deal with instead.

I think he has been underrated as a supertoxin until now, but if he can't get his crap together and learn something, be a team player and move the ball & move off the ball within a prescribed system, the team is going to implode and that is not how you build for the future.

There is still time. We have all season to see what's up, but Melo clearly has issues already. He's a fukking moron already when talking to press. He shows zero self-awareness and no team ethic. He's a big zero as a centerpiece this season, so he has already dug a hole for the team emotionally. Let's see if he can do more than have a hot streak and talk about that like he has found a magic elixir. Let's see if he actually changes his mindset and becomes something more than an overpaid child.

Put Melo at stretch 4 and be done with it. He IS one of the best stretch 4's in the game. I don't like him as a star 3 because hes not. But he is an NBA all star stretch 4. If we consider Melo our Dirk--hes fine. How many assists does Dirk make--umm less than Melo makes and they are comparable rebounders/scorers. If Phil Jackson wants to make what Melo is not(kobe Jordan Lebron) but understand who he is--stretch 4--then everything will be fine. Also who says we HAVE to stick with the triangle offense. Why so rigid? Pat Riley changed his way of thinking and they nearly won 4 championships.
The Knicks need to follow the Mavs a bit and sprinkle in some Spurs.

We have some decent long term pieces. Now lets concentrate on enhancing that instead of crying. I accept that this years team is a disaster cluster fkc. BUT I also believe we have a few decent pieces INCLUDING an all star stretch 4.

Basically Mike Woodson love him

Nope good for Melo not good for Team

Melo is not Dirk and you're saying Phil

Needs to concede to who Melo is

Which means if you put him at the 4

While paying him $125mil then who's really running this team

Let's say we still suck but Melo performs great

That means Phil has to have reservations on bringing in someone like

Jahil Okafor because no no no Melo's our Dirk, he's our 4

We can't pick you, please get the heck outta here with that logic

Melo has had 12yrs to play like he wants

$125mil he should be the one sacrificing at this stage

Jahil Okafor is clearly a center. Not sure why he'd conflict with Melo's stretch 4.

newyorknewyork wrote:

Splat wrote:I've been thinking all morning about what Phil Jackson is up to.

The official story is 11 rings, Zen Mucky Muck, coming home to NYC, cherry on top of his career, etc.

Now I've said it is possible there is a bit of hustle aspect to all of this. After all, the man extracted an amazing chunk of money out of Dolan for his services. Players get that dough, but management? OK, so he got paid. Draw your own conclusions, but if the one stipulation was he had to retain Melo, then it was a tainted deal.

Of course, the official story is total autonomy. Maybe he has it now (or for now), yet if it came with terms like this then it is suspect as to Phil's motivations.

One of the first things I posted that drew major objections was suggestions the things Phil and Fish say publicly are often going to have political motivations and to believe everything they say so literally is just naive. Boy did people get hot over that. As if everything they say is the whole story and unvarnished truth. As if.

But this morning I felt there was one more angle I had not fully considered, which is Phil may just think he is above it all, i.e. better and smarter than everyone and that he can work miracles.

This is what I call Jackson's potential Hubris Factor. I like the guy, so I'm not predisposed to saying these things, but the more I look at all the angles, the more I think this is very much likely. If Phil really thinks his poop don't stink, he may have the ability to delude himself into thinking he can:

Outfox other GMs

Reinvent Carmelo Anthony

Implement the Triangle System without the players capable of running it

Think about it. All that stuff in pre-season about how he was going to help Melo find another level or two higher in his game and make him the true superstar he was always meant to be, I think Phil was either:

1) Arrogant enough to believe that; or

2) Saying that to justify the signing, because he wanted the job and the paycheck.

Or both. Either way, I think Phil is still a very sharp guy. I respect his intelligence, but I'm not completely comfortable with his motivations. As Triple Threat has pointed out, he really already has one foot out the door. He is that old, Donnie Walsh old, with just as many physical ailments as Walsh had. Five years? We'll see.

But there are other very sharp GMs who know what they are doing. And we signed a non-max player to a max contract and that to me is pretty damn suspect, because either Phil has his own personal financial agenda or his hubris got the better of him and he psyched himself into believing he would transform Melo into his next mini-Kobe Jordan.

Whatever the deal with Phil is, something is off in my estimation as the Melo signing does not add up to either common sense or full autonomy. In other words, Phil was compromised from the very beginning by his own greed or an overestimation of his own abilities.

Its possible yet at the same time he made it clear that Melo wasn't those guys. I can't speak for Phil's agenda or thought process though it will be made very clear this off season or possibly some time during the season.

For me though it comes down to upside vs downside, but most importantly how manageable is the downside. And really all Phil has to do is keep the draft picks and manage the cap, that's it. If in 5yrs we don't win any championships but we have 4 first round draft picks and a healthy cap situation to show for it then fans can live with that. If Melo gets injured and turns into an Amare or Houston type of contract. Then we will have lottery picks to fall back on if he keeps his picks. If Melo doesn't perform at his 124mil tag its not the end of the world if we keep our draft picks and manage the cap.

When Isiah traded for Marbury looking back he got incredible value on that deal. Lampe & Milos turned into nothing and the 2 first round picks were only valuable due to the crappy moves made afterward. And at the end of the day if Isiah just kept his draft picks going forward Ariza, Aldrige and Noah could have been the front line even after trading for Marbury making the team well prepared to move forward if Marbury didn't work out. Hopefully we learn from that bit of history. Taking a chance on a Melo is apart of basketball. Just have to make sure you manage the downside properly.

There are signs that Phil is looking with a long term vision though. Hiring a rookie coach, not trading Amare & or Bargs and giving up a bunch of assets to do it. Comments about avoiding being in the luxary tax. So we will see.

Denver Nuggets traded Melo for more assets then we would be able to trade Melo for today and yet 5yrs later they missed the playoffs, are 1-5 right now. But at least they had that one 62win season which they lost in the first round again(Can't blame Melo's chucking for that one).

this is a good post, especially the notion of managing the downside. i would like to know, however, how this line of thinking squares with the probability that no quality free agent will be interested in coming here next year if we don't show some signs that the knicks are a real destination with a real shot at winning 2 or 3 years hence? and, if your line of thinking includes building a champion through the draft, then how does that sit with carmelo anthony since this scenario looks like a full on rebuild?

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Splat wrote:I've been thinking all morning about what Phil Jackson is up to.

The official story is 11 rings, Zen Mucky Muck, coming home to NYC, cherry on top of his career, etc.

Now I've said it is possible there is a bit of hustle aspect to all of this. After all, the man extracted an amazing chunk of money out of Dolan for his services. Players get that dough, but management? OK, so he got paid. Draw your own conclusions, but if the one stipulation was he had to retain Melo, then it was a tainted deal.

Of course, the official story is total autonomy. Maybe he has it now (or for now), yet if it came with terms like this then it is suspect as to Phil's motivations.

One of the first things I posted that drew major objections was suggestions the things Phil and Fish say publicly are often going to have political motivations and to believe everything they say so literally is just naive. Boy did people get hot over that. As if everything they say is the whole story and unvarnished truth. As if.

But this morning I felt there was one more angle I had not fully considered, which is Phil may just think he is above it all, i.e. better and smarter than everyone and that he can work miracles.

This is what I call Jackson's potential Hubris Factor. I like the guy, so I'm not predisposed to saying these things, but the more I look at all the angles, the more I think this is very much likely. If Phil really thinks his poop don't stink, he may have the ability to delude himself into thinking he can:

Outfox other GMs

Reinvent Carmelo Anthony

Implement the Triangle System without the players capable of running it

Think about it. All that stuff in pre-season about how he was going to help Melo find another level or two higher in his game and make him the true superstar he was always meant to be, I think Phil was either:

1) Arrogant enough to believe that; or

2) Saying that to justify the signing, because he wanted the job and the paycheck.

Or both. Either way, I think Phil is still a very sharp guy. I respect his intelligence, but I'm not completely comfortable with his motivations. As Triple Threat has pointed out, he really already has one foot out the door. He is that old, Donnie Walsh old, with just as many physical ailments as Walsh had. Five years? We'll see.

But there are other very sharp GMs who know what they are doing. And we signed a non-max player to a max contract and that to me is pretty damn suspect, because either Phil has his own personal financial agenda or his hubris got the better of him and he psyched himself into believing he would transform Melo into his next mini-Kobe Jordan.

Whatever the deal with Phil is, something is off in my estimation as the Melo signing does not add up to either common sense or full autonomy. In other words, Phil was compromised from the very beginning by his own greed or an overestimation of his own abilities.

Its possible yet at the same time he made it clear that Melo wasn't those guys. I can't speak for Phil's agenda or thought process though it will be made very clear this off season or possibly some time during the season.

For me though it comes down to upside vs downside, but most importantly how manageable is the downside. And really all Phil has to do is keep the draft picks and manage the cap, that's it. If in 5yrs we don't win any championships but we have 4 first round draft picks and a healthy cap situation to show for it then fans can live with that. If Melo gets injured and turns into an Amare or Houston type of contract. Then we will have lottery picks to fall back on if he keeps his picks. If Melo doesn't perform at his 124mil tag its not the end of the world if we keep our draft picks and manage the cap.

When Isiah traded for Marbury looking back he got incredible value on that deal. Lampe & Milos turned into nothing and the 2 first round picks were only valuable due to the crappy moves made afterward. And at the end of the day if Isiah just kept his draft picks going forward Ariza, Aldrige and Noah could have been the front line even after trading for Marbury making the team well prepared to move forward if Marbury didn't work out. Hopefully we learn from that bit of history. Taking a chance on a Melo is apart of basketball. Just have to make sure you manage the downside properly.

There are signs that Phil is looking with a long term vision though. Hiring a rookie coach, not trading Amare & or Bargs and giving up a bunch of assets to do it. Comments about avoiding being in the luxary tax. So we will see.

Denver Nuggets traded Melo for more assets then we would be able to trade Melo for today and yet 5yrs later they missed the playoffs, are 1-5 right now. But at least they had that one 62win season which they lost in the first round again(Can't blame Melo's chucking for that one).

this is a good post, especially the notion of managing the downside. i would like to know, however, how this line of thinking squares with the probability that no quality free agent will be interested in coming here next year if we don't show some signs that the knicks are a real destination with a real shot at winning 2 or 3 years hence? and, if your line of thinking includes building a champion through the draft, then how does that sit with carmelo anthony since this scenario looks like a full on rebuild?

Lance doesn't sign with Hornets with the deal he does if they only won 30 games last yr. The appearance of them being a team on the rise gave the Hornets bargaining power for a lowered salary. One of the hopes were to be able to lure a Gasol at a value contract like that. But again you can't put all your eggs in one basket. This option is becoming less likely.

And your misunderstanding me slightly. It turning into a full on rebuild would be the fall back option by default. But that doesn't mean that we don't attempt to make moves to become good. When I say manage the cap it doesn't mean not to sign any big contracts. It means the amount of yrs we give out should be closely monitored.

Basically if we sign a FA or make a trade it needs to be at great value and not because we are in desperation mode to get over the hump and be a championship team in 3-5yrs. If we strike out in FA don't go signing an Amare to a 100mil contract out of desperation. Sign a lower value guy on a shorter contract and fall back on your draft pick. We need to land a KG to the Celtics or Gasol to the Lakers type of value deal in order to reach championship level. Always trying to be a championship team in one off season is what has been killing this franchise. When instead we should be looking for MAJOR value(Celtics KG, Lakers Gasol, Suns Nash, Pistons Billups and Rasheed) or falling back on the draft picks.

knicks1248 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:So let's recap:
1) You can be a pessimist, as long as no one dares to actually call you that. If you're spending your time thoughtfully peeing on the charcoal six games into the regular season (which, if things get righted, we will be told, doesn't really count) you are a thoughtful, conscientious real Knicks fan who is only being a dikhead because we haven't won a chip in your lifetime or since you were still in pampers and you have a really bad taste in your mouth.
2) Being a homer optimist is for fools and sunshine in the farthole losers. Pessimists not pessimists are here, actually as thoughtful fans, to consistently point that out to you. Here. On this fan board.
3) Nothing can really ever be good, because Melo is here. For at least 4 years. And he makes an effin boatload of money, which he doesn't deserve. Pessimists not pessimists know this, because they watch DRose and KDurant and LQJames and Stephen Curry and other great people who don't make as much. It's simple. Pessimists not pessimists believe in NYC, you should be paid the same wage as someone in Santone or Indianapolis or OKC or Cleveland. And no one will ever change the astute business acumen beind that fact. It's called trickle down economics. By the way, Pessimists not pessimists hate Reagan, as all really smart people do. That's a free tip one should use when talking about NBA money. And additionally by the way, following teams that win, no matter how they do it is not Frontrunning. It's something else which you wouldn't understand.
4) Phil Jackson, that ancient, arrogant sumbeeyatch, makes an effin boatload of money for someone who obviously doesn't know as much about basketball as Pessimists not pessimists do. Pessimists not pessimists knew Amare at $100mil was a cluster dump, they know Melo is a DOUCHEBAG, they know just about everyone on this team is too stupid to chew gum and breathe concurrently. They will conveniently ignore the fact that we survived having an angry youthful executive here who had a track record that made the Mets look like worldbeaters in the executive management department. They will whine that there are alterior motives for a man with a net worth estimated at 45 million. That he made purely a money grab to come to NYC and possibly fail and tarnish his HOF coaching career. It's not that they don't like Phil. It's just that they don't trust him based on .... him... signing that...polished turd of a player to all that money. They will speak of hubris, in the face of rings and whatever possible credibility being the best, most winningest coach in the NBA brings with it. Because they really care. By the way, Pessimists not pessimists will be right about FluTyson and Ray Felton's intrinsic worth. Just you wait and see. Gee whiz, Phil is old. 5 years is an eternity. Young is always better.
5) DFish is a loser. Pessimists not pessimists know this after 6 games because they also know more basketball than a Pjax rubberstamp PG who rode the coatails of really great players to some rings. Plus he makes all that effin money that he really doesn't deserve. They know he doesn't deserve it because he isn't Popovich. DFish is young, but we don't like young coaches, unless they're coaching somewhere else.

Hubris. The humble coin of the truly knowledgeable knick fan.

Preach on brother.

Quite frankly, I'm to the point where I'm fully amused at the pessimist post, especially when it comes to Melo, Amare, and Phil.

Amare sucks no matter how good he plays, Melo's over paid even if the salary cap was 300 million, phil doesn't know anything about building a winning professional culture, zen way is the money grabbing way.

knicks1248 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:So let's recap:
1) You can be a pessimist, as long as no one dares to actually call you that. If you're spending your time thoughtfully peeing on the charcoal six games into the regular season (which, if things get righted, we will be told, doesn't really count) you are a thoughtful, conscientious real Knicks fan who is only being a dikhead because we haven't won a chip in your lifetime or since you were still in pampers and you have a really bad taste in your mouth.
2) Being a homer optimist is for fools and sunshine in the farthole losers. Pessimists not pessimists are here, actually as thoughtful fans, to consistently point that out to you. Here. On this fan board.
3) Nothing can really ever be good, because Melo is here. For at least 4 years. And he makes an effin boatload of money, which he doesn't deserve. Pessimists not pessimists know this, because they watch DRose and KDurant and LQJames and Stephen Curry and other great people who don't make as much. It's simple. Pessimists not pessimists believe in NYC, you should be paid the same wage as someone in Santone or Indianapolis or OKC or Cleveland. And no one will ever change the astute business acumen beind that fact. It's called trickle down economics. By the way, Pessimists not pessimists hate Reagan, as all really smart people do. That's a free tip one should use when talking about NBA money. And additionally by the way, following teams that win, no matter how they do it is not Frontrunning. It's something else which you wouldn't understand.
4) Phil Jackson, that ancient, arrogant sumbeeyatch, makes an effin boatload of money for someone who obviously doesn't know as much about basketball as Pessimists not pessimists do. Pessimists not pessimists knew Amare at $100mil was a cluster dump, they know Melo is a DOUCHEBAG, they know just about everyone on this team is too stupid to chew gum and breathe concurrently. They will conveniently ignore the fact that we survived having an angry youthful executive here who had a track record that made the Mets look like worldbeaters in the executive management department. They will whine that there are alterior motives for a man with a net worth estimated at 45 million. That he made purely a money grab to come to NYC and possibly fail and tarnish his HOF coaching career. It's not that they don't like Phil. It's just that they don't trust him based on .... him... signing that...polished turd of a player to all that money. They will speak of hubris, in the face of rings and whatever possible credibility being the best, most winningest coach in the NBA brings with it. Because they really care. By the way, Pessimists not pessimists will be right about FluTyson and Ray Felton's intrinsic worth. Just you wait and see. Gee whiz, Phil is old. 5 years is an eternity. Young is always better.
5) DFish is a loser. Pessimists not pessimists know this after 6 games because they also know more basketball than a Pjax rubberstamp PG who rode the coatails of really great players to some rings. Plus he makes all that effin money that he really doesn't deserve. They know he doesn't deserve it because he isn't Popovich. DFish is young, but we don't like young coaches, unless they're coaching somewhere else.

Hubris. The humble coin of the truly knowledgeable knick fan.

Preach on brother.

Quite frankly, I'm to the point where I'm fully amused at the pessimist post, especially when it comes to Melo, Amare, and Phil.

Amare sucks no matter how good he plays, Melo's over paid even if the salary cap was 300 million, phil doesn't know anything about building a winning professional culture, zen way is the money grabbing way.

And what is Phil actually going to do with all that grabbed money if he's going to be practically dead in less than 5 years, like all 70 somethings are?

he doesn't even have kids..

apparently, one need lots of money to meld with the oneness in zen nirvana.