Splat wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:
We want our star to succeed, nothing more than that. His personality (or lack thereof) is a subject that has been done to death at UK, maybe more than on any other Knicks board. Most posters know that Anthony is a flawed player, but we aren't so wrapped up in these flaws that it keeps us from taking the good and the bad from Melo. Plenty of other posters you can unburden yourself to about how Melo is making being a Knick fan so traumatic.

Yet it is completely relevant to my rebuttal that this is not rebuild from the ground up. It is pitching a tent around this guy with the flaws you're evidently fully cognizant of.

And a key part of why he is not the centerpiece of any franchise is precisely because he is a selfish ahole. It is the root cause of his flaws, because while his talent may not include the NBA's best lateral quickness on defense, he surely is plenty talented and capable of being a complete player. He is anything but that and his reputation as a ballstopper was well-earned.

Sure, maybe the system will help him learn, but I have absolutely no faith in him really changing enough to really matter. If he pulls this team out of funks by doing everything else with gusto besides just reverting to hero ball, then I'll applaud him. If he does that consistently over a full season and shows he is a changed man, I will step right up and compliment on his character, something I think can be changed if you want to badly enough.

Melo is like the worst kind of two-term presidency. It has been kind of torture watching his chitty style of play for years already and I know it will be just as boring for another go-around unless he changes his game significantly. He is the most overrated player I've ever seen, because people slobber over this guy regardless of how he never adds up to much more than a statistical factoid.

I don't respect his character, his intelligence or his motivations. He works hard at getting his points. Whoopee! It gets him fat contracts. Scorers get the glory. He's just another Bob McAdoo. A scoring champion, but that's it. Big deal.

You're rebuttal consisted mostly of you telling us we're pussies, most of us love James Dolan, Melo is the devil, and you're about the only one who sees the light. Sure you can make a case that it would have been better to really start from scratch, without Melo. I made such an argument myself when it came to offering Melo the max. I'm still not so broken up about Melo staying that it poisons any enjoyment I receive from watching the team, far from it.

Like I said, how we got to this point has been covered ad nauseum. What happens from this point on is all that matters to me. The foundation for this team is being laid. You might think it shouldn't have started with Melo. Maybe one day you will be proved right, but its not a very interesting discussion with the season about to start. Been there done that.

Splat wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:
We want our star to succeed, nothing more than that. His personality (or lack thereof) is a subject that has been done to death at UK, maybe more than on any other Knicks board. Most posters know that Anthony is a flawed player, but we aren't so wrapped up in these flaws that it keeps us from taking the good and the bad from Melo. Plenty of other posters you can unburden yourself to about how Melo is making being a Knick fan so traumatic.

He is the most overrated player I've ever seen

I don't know what's funnier

You calling Melo the most overrated PLAYER

or

Melo saying he's the most underrated SUPERSTAR

http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_/id/11624895/carmelo-anthony-new-york-knicks-says-most-underrated-star-player

"I think I'm the most underrated superstar that's out there, but that doesn't matter to me,"

Splat wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

Splat wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:
We want our star to succeed, nothing more than that. His personality (or lack thereof) is a subject that has been done to death at UK, maybe more than on any other Knicks board. Most posters know that Anthony is a flawed player, but we aren't so wrapped up in these flaws that it keeps us from taking the good and the bad from Melo. Plenty of other posters you can unburden yourself to about how Melo is making being a Knick fan so traumatic.

He is the most overrated player I've ever seen

I don't know what's funnier

You calling Melo the most overrated PLAYER

or

Melo saying he's the most underrated SUPERSTAR

http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_/id/11624895/carmelo-anthony-new-york-knicks-says-most-underrated-star-player

"I think I'm the most underrated superstar that's out there, but that doesn't matter to me,"

Perfect quote. Illustrates exactly how much of a twat he is. He is completely about himself. And he usually sounds idiotic in the process. Yeah, it rankles others to say it, yet most people bend over for this kind of stuff.

Sorry Gustav if you think you were called a puzzy, but it appears the majority of Knicks fans still are worshipping at the altar of Melo. You seem balanced about it even you think I'm not, so I don't see why you'd feel lumped in with that categorization.

Why kvetch about it now before Game 1? Because the emperor still has no clothes, yet lots of people seem to think everything has already changed. Kind of hard to do that when your core player is a selfish douche, but that's that. Enjoy the season.

Was not hurt about the insults being thrown. Melo has that effect on a few posters here, its just very old at this point, especially with a new season starting tonight. You're trying to argue that most posters here are Melo fanboys. It makes it easier, more fun to argue with other posters than accepting that there are more balanced posters on this board than you think. You're preaching to the choir. This is not breaking news what you're saying about Melo's less than admirable qualities.

As far as "bending over", unless you plan on boycotting the team.......

Splat wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:
Was not hurt about the insults being thrown. Melo has that effect on a few posters here, its just very old at this point, especially with a new season starting tonight. You're trying to argue that most posters here are Melo fanboys. It makes it easier, more fun to argue with other posters than accepting that there are more balanced posters on this board than you think. You're preaching to the choir. This is not breaking news what you're saying about Melo's less than admirable qualities.

As far as "bending over", unless you plan on boycotting the team.......

No problem. I will concede to your greater knowledge of the boards' opinions in these matters.

Now I'll go splash myself with some holy water and assume a virginal attitude of innocent wonder for our first game. Its the least I can do.

That's the spirit!

TripleThreat wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

And how do you know what Melo's "optimal" shape is or what it would look like? It just sounds ridiculous on its face, especially when you're talking about a guy who is a perennial all-star. Maybe you should criticize LeBron and Durant while you're at it.

In the offseason, Melo's agent, Leon Rose of CAA, was interviewed and asked about Melo's clear physical change this offseason ( i.e. lost weight) He answered the question by saying Melo was concerned about "extending" his career and being able to play for as long as possible.

If you reverse the inference, it implies, even by Melo's agent, that his current conditioning and weight would shorten his career.

If your weight and conditioning will shorten your playing career, then you aren't in the shape you need to be to help yourself, your career or your team.

Of course none of what was mentioned was about

1) Winning
or
2) Helping the team
or
3) Being a leader by example

Both Woodson and Pringles have talked about Melo's conditioning. His own agent has even talked about it.

Even on the eyeball test, Melo clearly IMHO slows down as the game goes on and playing defense clearly taxes him.

I'm amused at how people want to point to Melo's scoring and usage rate as some type of antidote to him being out of shape.

Tony Gwynn was FAT. Not just out of shape, but FAT and MORBIDLY OBESE as a Padre. Didn't stop him from playing a very long career. But no one argues it shortened it as well and limited aspects of his game.

Plenty of Giants fans here can talk about Big Jared Lorezen, the 350 pound quarterback. Who ate his way out of the NFL.

We want to get into Eddy Curry now?

Charles Barkley would routinely come into the NBA preseason far overweight and out of shape. So did Shaq at the end.

You can still play a lot of minutes, innings, snaps and still be out of shape, but no one seems to talk about how it impacts your EFFICIENCY.

I'm also amused when I point out things like chucking, not making his team mates better, being horrid in the press, failing to be a leader, that those issues just get passed by and folks say " No, no, Melo is in SHAPE!"

If any of you Melo ball lickers will find it amusing, he was in a cameo during an episode last night on Sons of Anarchy on FX. He played a black ex special forces/ex Blackwater mercenary/enforcer for a black suit and tie gangster. Does that amuse anyone else? Can you imagine Melo in boot camp? Or leading a squad into fire? Or leading anything? Or having the discipline to survive a chain of command military environment?

Do I have to?

While I agree with Nalod 100% - it's time to tank, this team is not good and isn't going anywhere. I have little reason to believe things will be different. Besides, who is the top prospect this year?

gunsnewing wrote:Problem is nothing we did in the offseason suggests tanking. Highlighted by paying Melo $124mil and trading for Calderon

Except those moves don't appear to be enough to get this hodge podge group of players to play winning basketball anyway so it may not matter and we very well may be bad enough going by what we saw last night to get a high pick intentionally tanking or not. Last night was U G L Y. And ugly in a way that portends another season like last where this team just doesn't fit well together.

Priggs is here because knicks honor commitments. We asked him to stay as for him it was about family in NYC. Unless brooklyn wants him, we honor it.
Shump is still on audition.

Amare might be on the comeback trail but that don't mean he is part of the future.

Im not saying we are losing on purpose, but there is no disaster here as the expectation really should not be there. What some of you WANT is for team to succeed and thats cool. So does Phish. I really thing the effort is there but the language of Melo coming in was pretty evident that the team is in transition. This team gets a free pass this season in my book.

The culture of patchwork to save the season costing the team assets to truly contend has to stop.

Lost the battle to win the war.

Nalod wrote:I don't think we need to deliberatly lose. ITs baked into this roster. Dalebert and Cole don't make us better. Calderone does to some extent and he'll be a good role player off the bench for a really good team.

Priggs is here because knicks honor commitments. We asked him to stay as for him it was about family in NYC. Unless brooklyn wants him, we honor it.
Shump is still on audition.

Amare might be on the comeback trail but that don't mean he is part of the future.

Im not saying we are losing on purpose, but there is no disaster here as the expectation really should not be there. What some of you WANT is for team to succeed and thats cool. So does Phish. I really thing the effort is there but the language of Melo coming in was pretty evident that the team is in transition. This team gets a free pass this season in my book.

The culture of patchwork to save the season costing the team assets to truly contend has to stop.

Lost the battle to win the war.

Well, that's the Long and the Zen of it. And Phil knows this being that he is sooo Zen. Guys wanted to tell me we aren't tanking and everything out of Phil's mouth is literally the truth.

But it really is simple. And so much closer to the way you're seeing it. Phil can say whatever, but the roster is not competitive. And he knows it. And it means no playoffs in all probability.

And Phil is down with that. And I'll bet Melo is too. They didn't swap spit before exchanging $124M vows without talking dirty, ya know. They did the pillow talk where Melo whispers to Phil: "so, um, yeah, Phil darling, so like if we get a top 3 pick, that'd be like awesome, and that makes it easier for me to buy into all of this. Plus the money part is cool and all."

Yeah, its tanking whatever you call it. Team can't not tank, so fans can call it whatever they want.

jrodmc wrote:

Nalod wrote:I don't think we need to deliberatly lose. ITs baked into this roster. Dalebert and Cole don't make us better. Calderone does to some extent and he'll be a good role player off the bench for a really good team.

Priggs is here because knicks honor commitments. We asked him to stay as for him it was about family in NYC. Unless brooklyn wants him, we honor it.
Shump is still on audition.

Amare might be on the comeback trail but that don't mean he is part of the future.

Im not saying we are losing on purpose, but there is no disaster here as the expectation really should not be there. What some of you WANT is for team to succeed and thats cool. So does Phish. I really thing the effort is there but the language of Melo coming in was pretty evident that the team is in transition. This team gets a free pass this season in my book.

The culture of patchwork to save the season costing the team assets to truly contend has to stop.

Lost the battle to win the war.

Retool. Reimagined. Revamped.
Just don't say tank.

That debacle last night made me wanna throw up.

Tonight's going to be hairybuttfugly. We couldn't stop 14 yr vet Pau. Love is going to get Daly/Cole/Stat all pregnant by middle of the 1st quarter.

Amare can talk then he has to answer to the film. Evident our bench is thin upfront until Bargs resurects his savioronic's.

Ok, its a "Stealth TankJob". Media will paint it bad but thats NY.

Lets get one thing straight, this is my take. I look at this team and the lack of starphuch tells me we are longer term oriented.
One upon a time Layden was collecting assets and letting contracts expire. When the Mecca turned on MSG Dolan panicked with hiring Isiah and set upon an unprecidented leverage to collet talent.
That was a disaster!

Phil I believe can handle the media and likely does not care. He has to not piss them off but play them. He needs to protect his rookie coach a bit and not disappear.

My take is this is all baked in if it in fact plays out as such. Melo will not be asked to carry Knicks to playoffs. We'll lean hard on Amare and perhaps trade him if he is seen as attractive to a contender needing bench scoring.

We'll see how the seaon plays out. If Im right, I've protected my emotional state. If Im wrong I enjoy the winning!

Knicks valuations are much higher if the team succeeds in a long sustained era of success. You can't do that by leveraging by the starphuch as we have for years.

A trio concept of Melo, drafted prospect stud, and a Free agent signing supported by a balanced squad with some vets wanting to play in the triangle in NY for a contender is how I see a brighter future.
Who are these mystical players? Time will tell.