nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:1st to address the many jokes about Bargs. I've never said anything about Bargs being some kind of all star. My only point is that he could be used much better than he has so far. With better PG play and a better system there's no reason Bargs can't be a useful player for this team. I thought he should be used in the PnP game much more often. It became clear that Bargs was much better for this team when playing C and not in the same lineup as Tyson. Tyson sucked up all the PnR/P plays from Bargs in Woody's POS Offense, so it made sense to have them not play together. He was also in need of confidence building and under Woody that didn't happen. I think Phil has a chance to get in Bargs head and help him understand how he's wasting his talent and not giving enough effort.

People forget that Pau Gasol had some issues about his work ethic and energy level too. Phil had to deal with that in the past and i'm sure he's not gonna just let Bargs play with no energy without really trying to get into his head.

Gasol's relationship with coach Phil Jackson has come into question for completely different reasons after Jackson was quite animated while approaching Gasol during timeouts in the Lakers' 98-92 loss on Friday.

"I always listen," Gasol said. "I listened to what he had to say. It wasn't shocking to me, or anything. I wasn't shocked by it; I just wanted to see his point, and what point he was trying to make more than anything through his words."

At several times in the game, Jackson made his point by hitting Gasol in the chest with his fist.

"I didn't even feel that," Gasol said Saturday.

When a reporter said that in Game 3 Jackson looked the most demonstrative he's ever been with Gasol, Jackson denied it.

"That's not true," Jackson said. "I've been animated or demonstrative with him many times. He and I have a little routine we go through about once a year where we go get into a little bit of an activity like that where I feel like he might be sitting back on his heels and he needs to get on his toes."

Asked if Jackson had ever made contact with him before when he was coaching him, Gasol said, "Maybe once, I don't know."

As for the trade of the pick, let's also remember that this pick was one that we had already used in the Melo deal. It was gonna be the worst of the picks between the Knicks and Nuggets. Still a loss of an asset, but it wasn't a clean pick. It's value had already been diminished.

Raptors (less favorable of Knicks, Nuggets picks)

Traded Andrea Bargnani to Knicks for Steve Novak, Marcus Camby, Quentin Richardson, 2014 second round pick (?-?), 2016 first round pick (less favorable of Knicks, Nuggets picks) (?-?), 2017 second round pick (?-?) on 2013-07-10

My guess is that they felt it was less of an impact being a couple of years down the line and not likely a very good pick. Either way now with Phil here we have much better decision making. Dolan finally did the right thing.

I don't think you realize you're talking to a lot of people here who think Bargs didn't simply have a down season but rather is one of the 10 or so worst players in the league. I say that with confidence because plenty of people here have cited metrics putting him at the bottom of the barrel.

I can understand the fact that Bargs is not liked by many and with good reason. My contention is that he's a salvageable player. I think if a coach is astute enough to pay attention to what he does well and look to use him that way he's a decent member of a team. I haven't really seen a coach define Bargs role based on what he does well and keep him in that sweet spot. I think Phil has dealt with guys like Bargs before which is why I brought up Gasol, who has had periods of enigmatic poor play. Phil and Fish have seen this kind of thing with Gasol and might have a better idea of how to get Bargs going. The talent is there.

The goal IMO is to get Bargs conditioning to a higher level. Get him playing closer to the basket in that sweet spot from the high post in to the low post area. Bargs would benefit from tons of reps in that area so he can get comfortable and confident operating there. Phil already started the process by adding Jose who he knows has a great rapport with Bargs. Felton was the worst thing to happen to Bargs IMO. Look as i've said over and over, Bargs isn't a great player with a natural high motor, but he does have talent and it's up to the coaching staff to get thru to him. The Knicks are paying Bargs a lot of money and i'm positive that Phil will do his best to try and get production from him since we likely won't be able to trade him without him showing something. There's no alternative.

F500ONE wrote:How can second rounders of a Dallas trade be good value but 1st rounder given up in Rap trade be bad?

Does it depend on the team making the trade

If we traded Bargnani right now for a future 1st round pick would this be bad value?

Would Phil have executed a bad trade

If we trade Bargnani for a future 1st I'd be worried that Phil Jackson was going to prison for kidnapping the other GM's children and holding them hostage.

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:1st to address the many jokes about Bargs. I've never said anything about Bargs being some kind of all star. My only point is that he could be used much better than he has so far. With better PG play and a better system there's no reason Bargs can't be a useful player for this team. I thought he should be used in the PnP game much more often. It became clear that Bargs was much better for this team when playing C and not in the same lineup as Tyson. Tyson sucked up all the PnR/P plays from Bargs in Woody's POS Offense, so it made sense to have them not play together. He was also in need of confidence building and under Woody that didn't happen. I think Phil has a chance to get in Bargs head and help him understand how he's wasting his talent and not giving enough effort.

People forget that Pau Gasol had some issues about his work ethic and energy level too. Phil had to deal with that in the past and i'm sure he's not gonna just let Bargs play with no energy without really trying to get into his head.

Gasol's relationship with coach Phil Jackson has come into question for completely different reasons after Jackson was quite animated while approaching Gasol during timeouts in the Lakers' 98-92 loss on Friday.

"I always listen," Gasol said. "I listened to what he had to say. It wasn't shocking to me, or anything. I wasn't shocked by it; I just wanted to see his point, and what point he was trying to make more than anything through his words."

At several times in the game, Jackson made his point by hitting Gasol in the chest with his fist.

"I didn't even feel that," Gasol said Saturday.

When a reporter said that in Game 3 Jackson looked the most demonstrative he's ever been with Gasol, Jackson denied it.

"That's not true," Jackson said. "I've been animated or demonstrative with him many times. He and I have a little routine we go through about once a year where we go get into a little bit of an activity like that where I feel like he might be sitting back on his heels and he needs to get on his toes."

Asked if Jackson had ever made contact with him before when he was coaching him, Gasol said, "Maybe once, I don't know."

As for the trade of the pick, let's also remember that this pick was one that we had already used in the Melo deal. It was gonna be the worst of the picks between the Knicks and Nuggets. Still a loss of an asset, but it wasn't a clean pick. It's value had already been diminished.

Raptors (less favorable of Knicks, Nuggets picks)

Traded Andrea Bargnani to Knicks for Steve Novak, Marcus Camby, Quentin Richardson, 2014 second round pick (?-?), 2016 first round pick (less favorable of Knicks, Nuggets picks) (?-?), 2017 second round pick (?-?) on 2013-07-10

My guess is that they felt it was less of an impact being a couple of years down the line and not likely a very good pick. Either way now with Phil here we have much better decision making. Dolan finally did the right thing.

I don't think you realize you're talking to a lot of people here who think Bargs didn't simply have a down season but rather is one of the 10 or so worst players in the league. I say that with confidence because plenty of people here have cited metrics putting him at the bottom of the barrel.

I can understand the fact that Bargs is not liked by many and with good reason. My contention is that he's a salvageable player. I think if a coach is astute enough to pay attention to what he does well and look to use him that way he's a decent member of a team. I haven't really seen a coach define Bargs role based on what he does well and keep him in that sweet spot. I think Phil has dealt with guys like Bargs before which is why I brought up Gasol, who has had periods of enigmatic poor play. Phil and Fish have seen this kind of thing with Gasol and might have a better idea of how to get Bargs going. The talent is there.

The goal IMO is to get Bargs conditioning to a higher level. Get him playing closer to the basket in that sweet spot from the high post in to the low post area. Bargs would benefit from tons of reps in that area so he can get comfortable and confident operating there. Phil already started the process by adding Jose who he knows has a great rapport with Bargs. Felton was the worst thing to happen to Bargs IMO. Look as i've said over and over, Bargs isn't a great player with a natural high motor, but he does have talent and it's up to the coaching staff to get thru to him. The Knicks are paying Bargs a lot of money and i'm positive that Phil will do his best to try and get production from him since we likely won't be able to trade him without him showing something. There's no alternative.

I'm not sure the biggest problem is fixable, though. There were articles on this a while ago - his plus/minus is always bad because he has a flat jumper that leads to a higher percentage of fast breaks than any other player in the league. He's the only player in the past 15 years to have had 5 straight years in which the opponent shot over 50% after his jump-shots. This is an even bigger issue if he's only going to hit around 25% of his 3s, as that means tons of scoring opportunities for the opponents.

SEASON	TEAM  GP  GS  MIN  FGM-A      FG%   3PM-A    3P%   FTM-A    FT%	  OR   DR   REB  AST  BLK  STL  PF   TO   PTS
'06-'07	TOR   65  2   25.1  4.1-9.6   .427  1.5-4.1  .373  1.8-2.2  .824  0.8  3.1  3.9  0.8  0.8  0.5  2.8  1.6  11.6
'07-'08	TOR   78  53  23.9  3.6-9.3   .386  1.2-3.3  .345  1.8-2.2  .840  0.6  3.1  3.7  1.1  0.5  0.3  2.7  1.1  10.2

'08-'09	TOR   78  59  31.4  5.5-12.3  .450  1.5-3.7  .409  2.8-3.4  .831  0.9  4.4  5.3  1.2  1.2  0.4  3.1  1.7  15.4
'09-'10	TOR   80  80  35.0  6.7-14.3  .470  1.5-4.1  .372  2.3-2.9  .774  1.3  4.9  6.2  1.2  1.4  0.3  2.7  1.5  17.2
'10-'11	TOR   66  66  35.7  8.0-17.8  .448  1.2-3.4  .345  4.3-5.3  .820  1.1  4.1  5.2  1.8  0.7  0.5  2.4  2.3  21.4
'11-'12	TOR   31  31  33.3  6.7-15.6  .432  1.1-3.7  .296  4.9-5.6  .873  0.8  4.8  5.5  2.0  0.5  0.6  1.7  2.2  19.5
'12-'13	TOR   35  25  28.7  4.9-12.2  .399  1.1-3.5  .309  1.9-2.2  .844  0.7  2.9  3.7  1.1  0.7  0.6  1.8  1.5  12.7
'13-'14	NY    42  39  29.9  5.3-12.0  .442  0.7-2.6  .278  2.0-2.4  .824  1.6  3.6  5.3  1.1  1.2  0.3  2.4  1.4  13.3

I think Phil is going to be trying to get Bargs back to the levels he was at during the 4 yrs between 08-09 and 11-12. He has a chance to be even better than those years if he's focused, is put in the best positions and coached better to keep his intensity up. If Fish and Phil can get Bargs back to his best he'll be a useful player this year. I think Bargs was starting to get his Mojo back at the start of the year, but Felton's freezing him out and Woody just not knowing how to use him or coach him up wasted an opportunity. Then you get Bargs trying too hard to make something happen and he injures himself. Often times the environment a player is in has a huge impact on how well he plays. If he's not being jerked around and is instead told he's an important part of this team he might regain his confidence, which I think has dipped to all time lows the last 2 years. People need to stop letting the last 2 yrs determine the full potential of what Bargs can do. He barely played the last 2-3 yrs. When he played more games and was getting more shots he was a much better player. Not great, but you can use a player like he was in his best yrs. Fish and Phil need to get him playing like that but even better and he's still young enough to be able to do that. This is the kind of thing Phil is known for doing with some of his players that lost their mojo.

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:1st to address the many jokes about Bargs. I've never said anything about Bargs being some kind of all star. My only point is that he could be used much better than he has so far. With better PG play and a better system there's no reason Bargs can't be a useful player for this team. I thought he should be used in the PnP game much more often. It became clear that Bargs was much better for this team when playing C and not in the same lineup as Tyson. Tyson sucked up all the PnR/P plays from Bargs in Woody's POS Offense, so it made sense to have them not play together. He was also in need of confidence building and under Woody that didn't happen. I think Phil has a chance to get in Bargs head and help him understand how he's wasting his talent and not giving enough effort.

People forget that Pau Gasol had some issues about his work ethic and energy level too. Phil had to deal with that in the past and i'm sure he's not gonna just let Bargs play with no energy without really trying to get into his head.

Gasol's relationship with coach Phil Jackson has come into question for completely different reasons after Jackson was quite animated while approaching Gasol during timeouts in the Lakers' 98-92 loss on Friday.

"I always listen," Gasol said. "I listened to what he had to say. It wasn't shocking to me, or anything. I wasn't shocked by it; I just wanted to see his point, and what point he was trying to make more than anything through his words."

At several times in the game, Jackson made his point by hitting Gasol in the chest with his fist.

"I didn't even feel that," Gasol said Saturday.

When a reporter said that in Game 3 Jackson looked the most demonstrative he's ever been with Gasol, Jackson denied it.

"That's not true," Jackson said. "I've been animated or demonstrative with him many times. He and I have a little routine we go through about once a year where we go get into a little bit of an activity like that where I feel like he might be sitting back on his heels and he needs to get on his toes."

Asked if Jackson had ever made contact with him before when he was coaching him, Gasol said, "Maybe once, I don't know."

As for the trade of the pick, let's also remember that this pick was one that we had already used in the Melo deal. It was gonna be the worst of the picks between the Knicks and Nuggets. Still a loss of an asset, but it wasn't a clean pick. It's value had already been diminished.

Raptors (less favorable of Knicks, Nuggets picks)

Traded Andrea Bargnani to Knicks for Steve Novak, Marcus Camby, Quentin Richardson, 2014 second round pick (?-?), 2016 first round pick (less favorable of Knicks, Nuggets picks) (?-?), 2017 second round pick (?-?) on 2013-07-10

My guess is that they felt it was less of an impact being a couple of years down the line and not likely a very good pick. Either way now with Phil here we have much better decision making. Dolan finally did the right thing.

I don't think you realize you're talking to a lot of people here who think Bargs didn't simply have a down season but rather is one of the 10 or so worst players in the league. I say that with confidence because plenty of people here have cited metrics putting him at the bottom of the barrel.

I can understand the fact that Bargs is not liked by many and with good reason. My contention is that he's a salvageable player. I think if a coach is astute enough to pay attention to what he does well and look to use him that way he's a decent member of a team. I haven't really seen a coach define Bargs role based on what he does well and keep him in that sweet spot. I think Phil has dealt with guys like Bargs before which is why I brought up Gasol, who has had periods of enigmatic poor play. Phil and Fish have seen this kind of thing with Gasol and might have a better idea of how to get Bargs going. The talent is there.

The goal IMO is to get Bargs conditioning to a higher level. Get him playing closer to the basket in that sweet spot from the high post in to the low post area. Bargs would benefit from tons of reps in that area so he can get comfortable and confident operating there. Phil already started the process by adding Jose who he knows has a great rapport with Bargs. Felton was the worst thing to happen to Bargs IMO. Look as i've said over and over, Bargs isn't a great player with a natural high motor, but he does have talent and it's up to the coaching staff to get thru to him. The Knicks are paying Bargs a lot of money and i'm positive that Phil will do his best to try and get production from him since we likely won't be able to trade him without him showing something. There's no alternative.

I'm not sure the biggest problem is fixable, though. There were articles on this a while ago - his plus/minus is always bad because he has a flat jumper that leads to a higher percentage of fast breaks than any other player in the league. He's the only player in the past 15 years to have had 5 straight years in which the opponent shot over 50% after his jump-shots. This is an even bigger issue if he's only going to hit around 25% of his 3s, as that means tons of scoring opportunities for the opponents.

How the F can you really prove that it's because Bargs has a flat jumper that this is the reason other teams scored over 50%. Your claims make little sense to me since the last 2 years he's only avg'd 12 FGA and he only took 3.5 and 2.6 3's per game the last 2 years. He's not taking an inordinate number of 3's every game. People just exaggerate this part of his game. The problem has been really just the last 2 years. If we look at the 4 years before the last 2 really below standard, injury shortened seasons, he looks a lot different.

SEASON	TEAM  GP  GS  MIN  FGM-A      FG%   3PM-A    3P%   FTM-A    FT%	  OR   DR   REB  AST  BLK  STL  PF   TO   PTS
'06-'07	TOR   65  2   25.1  4.1-9.6   .427  1.5-4.1  .373  1.8-2.2  .824  0.8  3.1  3.9  0.8  0.8  0.5  2.8  1.6  11.6
'07-'08	TOR   78  53  23.9  3.6-9.3   .386  1.2-3.3  .345  1.8-2.2  .840  0.6  3.1  3.7  1.1  0.5  0.3  2.7  1.1  10.2

'08-'09	TOR   78  59  31.4  5.5-12.3  .450  1.5-3.7  .409  2.8-3.4  .831  0.9  4.4  5.3  1.2  1.2  0.4  3.1  1.7  15.4
'09-'10	TOR   80  80  35.0  6.7-14.3  .470  1.5-4.1  .372  2.3-2.9  .774  1.3  4.9  6.2  1.2  1.4  0.3  2.7  1.5  17.2
'10-'11	TOR   66  66  35.7  8.0-17.8  .448  1.2-3.4  .345  4.3-5.3  .820  1.1  4.1  5.2  1.8  0.7  0.5  2.4  2.3  21.4
'11-'12	TOR   31  31  33.3  6.7-15.6  .432  1.1-3.7  .296  4.9-5.6  .873  0.8  4.8  5.5  2.0  0.5  0.6  1.7  2.2  19.5
'12-'13	TOR   35  25  28.7  4.9-12.2  .399  1.1-3.5  .309  1.9-2.2  .844  0.7  2.9  3.7  1.1  0.7  0.6  1.8  1.5  12.7
'13-'14	NY    42  39  29.9  5.3-12.0  .442  0.7-2.6  .278  2.0-2.4  .824  1.6  3.6  5.3  1.1  1.2  0.3  2.4  1.4  13.3

I think Phil is going to be trying to get Bargs back to the levels he was at during the 4 yrs between 08-09 and 11-12. He has a chance to be even better than those years if he's focused, is put in the best positions and coached better to keep his intensity up. If Fish and Phil can get Bargs back to his best he'll be a useful player this year. I think Bargs was starting to get his Mojo back at the start of the year, but Felton's freezing him out and Woody just not knowing how to use him or coach him up wasted an opportunity. Then you get Bargs trying too hard to make something happen and he injures himself. Often times the environment a player is in has a huge impact on how well he plays. If he's not being jerked around and is instead told he's an important part of this team he might regain his confidence, which I think has dipped to all time lows the last 2 years. People need to stop letting the last 2 yrs determine the full potential of what Bargs can do. He barely played the last 2-3 yrs. When he played more games and was getting more shots he was a much better player. Not great, but you can use a player like he was in his best yrs. Fish and Phil need to get him playing like that but even better and he's still young enough to be able to do that. This is the kind of thing Phil is known for doing with some of his players that lost their mojo.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:its not that smart to guess and fling sh1t at the wall when there is excellent data that can think for us since many of us are not that good at it.

There is a reason why all teams and GM's are now heavily invested in advanced stats. But hey, how about we trade for Josh Smith. Or Bargs. Or Felton. Nick Young? Tyreke? Beas?

No - not anymore. Interesting that the players who are efficient are the ones that everyone wants.

Open your eyes and don't be scared of this new world.

And btw, I watch every single game as well.

That's my issue though- no data thinks for itself or thinks for us- it has to be weighted and interpreted by people, who based on their own opinions decide which data to value.

Morey is the Metrics King, but his offseason plan was "sign Melo!". Metrics are a tool, but they aren't the be all and end all. I like people exchanging opinions, theories, hunches, etc on these message boards- it would be dull as hell if everyone stopped doing that and just posted metrics, or weren't allowed to post their opinions because of a lack of data.

The eye test and metrics are both important. Opinions are fine but they should be researched and not just flung. Certain stats are irrefutable.

If we had someone with half a brain and just took a peak at stats, do you think that we would have traded for bargs? Of course not. The stats were screaming "bonehead move"

We're agreed on Bargs! His awfulness transcends metrics and the eye test!

My opinion on Lowry is, he's a great player who I've liked for years (wished we could have traded Lin for him), but players usually perform better in contract years, especially passion-players like Lowry (players who seem to play better than they are when they get fired up)- do you honestly believe he's going to be even better this year than last? Plus you have to start looking at his age. For a player that depends on his athleticism, he doesn't have the best conditioned body- he will likely start to decline quickly in a few years.

He needs to be in the right environment to excel- the Raptors were that environment, but I'm not sure the Knicks would have been- this team tends to bring out the worst in people, though hopefully with Phil at the helm that will change.

But he's great value at $12 mil even if he just regresses towards his career average. I'd rather have Lowry at $12 mil per and someone like Millsap at $10 mil per than Melo alone at double that.

Absolutely! I would take Dragic or Lowry at half the price any day.

And, Lowry is going to regress at 28 and Melo is gonna stay healthy and play at peak?

And ... to think that we could have traded for Lowry instead of Bargs, we would have been REALLY good, even with maxMelo.

Now I'm confused. Do you think Melo currently is or isn't worth his salary? I thought you said he currently was but you thought in the long-term it was a bad deal. Sorry if I have that wrong.

I am not sure if Melo is/will be worth his salary - I certainly do not like it. He is definitely worth it to the knicks as a cash cow.

I am a big fan of Lowry and Dragic and believe that they are bargains.

I do trust Phil far more than you do though I hope that resigning Melo was about winning and not just about the knicks making money.

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:The thing is, there are about 300 players in the league where you could list 5 major changes they need to make and they'd be much better. I don't get why you write so much about Bargs. He does have some unique strengths (which you've covered) but also some unique problems (a 7 footer who can't rebound, terrible help defender). These basically cancel each other out and make him just another one of those 300 players.

Can anyone name one thing that Bargs is actually good at? Just one thing!

The triangle

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:The thing is, there are about 300 players in the league where you could list 5 major changes they need to make and they'd be much better. I don't get why you write so much about Bargs. He does have some unique strengths (which you've covered) but also some unique problems (a 7 footer who can't rebound, terrible help defender). These basically cancel each other out and make him just another one of those 300 players.

Can anyone name one thing that Bargs is actually good at? Just one thing!

knickscity wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:The thing is, there are about 300 players in the league where you could list 5 major changes they need to make and they'd be much better. I don't get why you write so much about Bargs. He does have some unique strengths (which you've covered) but also some unique problems (a 7 footer who can't rebound, terrible help defender). These basically cancel each other out and make him just another one of those 300 players.

Can anyone name one thing that Bargs is actually good at? Just one thing!

On the court? Nothing. The majority of NBA are not liabilities on one side of the ball. Even the side that he is somewhat good at he really isnt good at.

But he certainly has a few beleiving all he needs is to be shown the right way to play, as if he hasnt had that his entire basketball life.

Most foreign players are basketball smart on fundamentals and when they come into the NBA they natrually blend in because they automatically play a team game.

This Bargs hasnt been taught nonsense is just that.....nonsense.

Bonn1997 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:The thing is, there are about 300 players in the league where you could list 5 major changes they need to make and they'd be much better. I don't get why you write so much about Bargs. He does have some unique strengths (which you've covered) but also some unique problems (a 7 footer who can't rebound, terrible help defender). These basically cancel each other out and make him just another one of those 300 players.

Can anyone name one thing that Bargs is actually good at? Just one thing!

On the court? Nothing. The majority of NBA are not liabilities on one side of the ball. Even the side that he is somewhat good at he really isnt good at.

But he certainly has a few beleiving all he needs is to be shown the right way to play, as if he hasnt had that his entire basketball life.

Most foreign players are basketball smart on fundamentals and when they come into the NBA they natrually blend in because they automatically play a team game.

This Bargs hasnt been taught nonsense is just that.....nonsense.

I can anticipate several "WTF"s when Nixluva returns to this thread!

Truthfully I've never seen an international player as dumb and non competitive as Bargnani....usually they are excellent team players.

dk7th wrote:he has a good midrange shot. maybe someone with easy access to shot charts-- you know the green and red ones of the court-- can back me up on this.

Here you go:

You can get these at http://stats.nba.com/