knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:Wouldn't worry about bargs offense either, i would be worried about my TEAMS offense trying to force feed barganani into it.

When you're only good from 1-2 spots on the floor and provide little of anything else, that makes you at best a role player.

WTF? Guys have made careers only being good from 1-2 spots on the floor. They're called specialists. In Triangle, which we will be playing, Bargs fits right into a role. Same as Jason Smith, which is why Phil brought him in. Both of them are top tier PnP players. They set pick and can turn and hit the short jumper. That's an actual skill that is needed in the Triangle. STAT can do this as well. So basically we have bigs that can do what we need them to do in this offense.

Pick and Pop 2012:
1. Bargnani 1.022 
2. Duncan 1.007 
3. K. Love 1.000 
4. Garnett .979 
5. Aldridge .969 
6. M. Gasol .947 
7. Jason Smith .931 
8. D. West .931 
9. Gooden .927 
10. D. Lee .909

It's not hard to see why Phil would say positive things about what he thinks Bargs can do in this offense. It's as if people don't think Phil is smart enough to recognize certain skills in players. We're only talking about making Bargs more productive. Getting him to a level of efficiency he's capable of playing if he's taught how to be an efficient player, which is EXACTLY what Fish and Phil are going to be teaching him. You think Phil won't pull Bargs aside and get into his head? This is what the man does.

A specialist is a role player....cant imagine how you cant understand terms.

But anyway, I expect your disappointment again this year when Bargs fails you once again.....then I guess you'll blame Phil and Fish.

By the way, you're Jason Smith reference couldnt be so wrong.....he's the anti Bargs.

I'm fully aware of the meaning of terms, but lets not get caught up in that. The idea that you can't understand the similarity in Bargs and Jason Smith in this offense has me SMH. I just posted a stat which gives you an idea of how they fit into the Triangle. Both big men can hit the midrange jumper. That's a huge part of being successful in the Triangle. They're very similar players, which you don't seem to know.

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:Wouldn't worry about bargs offense either, i would be worried about my TEAMS offense trying to force feed barganani into it.

When you're only good from 1-2 spots on the floor and provide little of anything else, that makes you at best a role player.

WTF? Guys have made careers only being good from 1-2 spots on the floor. They're called specialists. In Triangle, which we will be playing, Bargs fits right into a role. Same as Jason Smith, which is why Phil brought him in. Both of them are top tier PnP players. They set pick and can turn and hit the short jumper. That's an actual skill that is needed in the Triangle. STAT can do this as well. So basically we have bigs that can do what we need them to do in this offense.

Pick and Pop 2012:
1. Bargnani 1.022 
2. Duncan 1.007 
3. K. Love 1.000 
4. Garnett .979 
5. Aldridge .969 
6. M. Gasol .947 
7. Jason Smith .931 
8. D. West .931 
9. Gooden .927 
10. D. Lee .909

It's not hard to see why Phil would say positive things about what he thinks Bargs can do in this offense. It's as if people don't think Phil is smart enough to recognize certain skills in players. We're only talking about making Bargs more productive. Getting him to a level of efficiency he's capable of playing if he's taught how to be an efficient player, which is EXACTLY what Fish and Phil are going to be teaching him. You think Phil won't pull Bargs aside and get into his head? This is what the man does.

A specialist is a role player....cant imagine how you cant understand terms.

But anyway, I expect your disappointment again this year when Bargs fails you once again.....then I guess you'll blame Phil and Fish.

By the way, you're Jason Smith reference couldnt be so wrong.....he's the anti Bargs.

I'm fully aware of the meaning of terms, but lets not get caught up in that. The idea that you can't understand the similarity in Bargs and Jason Smith in this offense has me SMH. I just posted a stat which gives you an idea of how they fit into the Triangle. Both big men can hit the midrange jumper. That's a huge part of being successful in the Triangle. They're very similar players, which you don't seem to know.

Jason Smith is a phsyical player who happens to have a mid range shot....and is an actual power forward, which Bargs, by your own admission is not.

Defense, rebounding and tough physical play is Jason Smith specialty and getting into opponents heads.....the boy is a goon with range on his shot....but scoring the ball isnt his preference.

Sure, he can score, but that isnt his strength otherwise that would be his average unless coaches are too stupid to use him that way.

I'll introduce you to jason Smith.....

I'm well aware of Jason Smith's physical side. That doesn't change the fact that his skills fit the needs of a big in the triangle. I never said they were exactly the same player on both ends. I said they're fit offensively is very similar. They can both hit the midrange jumper and work the PnP game. I think you're just trying to confuse the issue by bringing up that he's a physical guy on the defensive end. If he couldn't hit the jumper there's likely no way Phil brings him in. That's the extra aspect of his game that makes him a great fit. Perhaps you don't perceive that fact but that's why I posted stats and a video to show that his ability in that regard makes him a good fit. You can't minimize the fact that he can hit the jumper cuz in this offense it doesn't work as well if the Big can't hit the open jumper in the Pinch Post game. In addition to being able to get to the basket if it's there. Aside from being a guy that throws his weight around Jason and Bargs games both fit the Triangle.

I wouldn't say that Bargs can't play PF. It all depends on who is on the floor with him. You have to have a big who can be a good help defender. Bargs is not a good help defender. He does get blocks, but he misses assignments too often and doesn't think like a paint defending big. I think he can improve on that with work tho, but he's not a natural paint defender. So having him in there with Jason or a guy like KMart can help.

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:Wouldn't worry about bargs offense either, i would be worried about my TEAMS offense trying to force feed barganani into it.

When you're only good from 1-2 spots on the floor and provide little of anything else, that makes you at best a role player.

WTF? Guys have made careers only being good from 1-2 spots on the floor. They're called specialists. In Triangle, which we will be playing, Bargs fits right into a role. Same as Jason Smith, which is why Phil brought him in. Both of them are top tier PnP players. They set pick and can turn and hit the short jumper. That's an actual skill that is needed in the Triangle. STAT can do this as well. So basically we have bigs that can do what we need them to do in this offense.

Pick and Pop 2012:
1. Bargnani 1.022 
2. Duncan 1.007 
3. K. Love 1.000 
4. Garnett .979 
5. Aldridge .969 
6. M. Gasol .947 
7. Jason Smith .931 
8. D. West .931 
9. Gooden .927 
10. D. Lee .909

It's not hard to see why Phil would say positive things about what he thinks Bargs can do in this offense. It's as if people don't think Phil is smart enough to recognize certain skills in players. We're only talking about making Bargs more productive. Getting him to a level of efficiency he's capable of playing if he's taught how to be an efficient player, which is EXACTLY what Fish and Phil are going to be teaching him. You think Phil won't pull Bargs aside and get into his head? This is what the man does.

A specialist is a role player....cant imagine how you cant understand terms.

But anyway, I expect your disappointment again this year when Bargs fails you once again.....then I guess you'll blame Phil and Fish.

By the way, you're Jason Smith reference couldnt be so wrong.....he's the anti Bargs.

I'm fully aware of the meaning of terms, but lets not get caught up in that. The idea that you can't understand the similarity in Bargs and Jason Smith in this offense has me SMH. I just posted a stat which gives you an idea of how they fit into the Triangle. Both big men can hit the midrange jumper. That's a huge part of being successful in the Triangle. They're very similar players, which you don't seem to know.

Jason Smith is a phsyical player who happens to have a mid range shot....and is an actual power forward, which Bargs, by your own admission is not.

Defense, rebounding and tough physical play is Jason Smith specialty and getting into opponents heads.....the boy is a goon with range on his shot....but scoring the ball isnt his preference.

Sure, he can score, but that isnt his strength otherwise that would be his average unless coaches are too stupid to use him that way.

I'll introduce you to jason Smith.....

I'm well aware of Jason Smith's physical side. That doesn't change the fact that his skills fit the needs of a big in the triangle. I never said they were exactly the same player on both ends. I said they're fit offensively is very similar. They can both hit the midrange jumper and work the PnP game. I think you're just trying to confuse the issue by bringing up that he's a physical guy on the defensive end. If he couldn't hit the jumper there's likely no way Phil brings him in. That's the extra aspect of his game that makes him a great fit. Perhaps you don't perceive that fact but that's why I posted stats and a video to show that his ability in that regard makes him a good fit. You can't minimize the fact that he can hit the jumper cuz in this offense it doesn't work as well if the Big can't hit the open jumper in the Pinch Post game. In addition to being able to get to the basket if it's there. Aside from being a guy that throws his weight around Jason and Bargs games both fit the Triangle.

I wouldn't say that Bargs can't play PF. It all depends on who is on the floor with him. You have to have a big who can be a good help defender. Bargs is not a good help defender. He does get blocks, but he misses assignments too often and doesn't think like a paint defending big. I think he can improve on that with work tho, but he's not a natural paint defender. So having him in there with Jason or a guy like KMart can help.

Phil signed Smith a few days after stating the only natural defender on the team was Shumpert. He wasnt brought in primarily to score.

Can he? Sure, and he will sometimes, but that isnt why he's here.

Honestly I'm pretty done with this convo.....just like I was last year.

We'll revisit sometime mid season.

The bigs touch the ball all the damn time in the Triangle it's the Big's inside that help to form the Triangle and operate in the post. I've posted videos just so you could see how that works and you still post this stuff. When Phil had Gasol and Bynum they basically showed you what is possible in the Triangle with two bigs that can score. The ball moved around and both bigs could get looks. After setting picks if your big can hit that midrange jumper the entire offense is more dangerous. Both Bargs and Jason are able to hit that shot. Melo and STAT can hit that shot. All of them can also drive to the hoop as well. Jason is a good fit as is Bargs. That's what this thread was about and I've just been trying to point out why. Some people want to bash Bargs as garbage but I just think when used right he can contribute. That's all i've been saying.

Basically Bargs had a good November without Tyson, then Tyson comes back and he has a down Dec. Tyson goes out and Bargs plays well again on the road in Texas plus 4 more games and Tyson comes back and the team loses 5 straight, Bargs is done for the year. It was just 42 games, but when Tyson wasn't there Bargs played well. IMO it was clear that the chemistry was off when Both Tyson and Bargs were on the floor and it most likely was Felton's fault. Felton is not a good PG and he may not have been able to balance the distribution of plays when he had Melo, Bargs and Tyson and Bargs was the odd man out. Just like my Stats show Bargs was better when Tyson was out and it may not have been Tyson so much as it was just horrid PG play.
Bargs and STAT were bad together too as they're a disaster defensively.

3	C. Anthony | A. Bargnani | R. Felton | K. Martin | I. Shumpert	  145:51    +7.0
6	C. Anthony | A. Bargnani | R. Felton | I. Shumpert | J. Smith	  126:11    +10.8
7	C. Anthony | A. Bargnani | T. Chandler | R. Felton | I. Shumpert   90:52    -23.7
10	C. Anthony | A. Bargnani | K. Martin | I. Shumpert | B. Udrih	   66:33    -2.5
16	C. Anthony | A. Bargnani | A. Stoudemire | P. Prigioni | J. Smith  42:54    -45.8
19	C. Anthony | A. Bargnani | P. Prigioni | I. Shumpert | J. Smith	   38:41    -4.5
20	A. Bargnani | T. Chandler | T. Hardaway | J. Smith | B. Udrih	   37:27    -33.3

Replacing Felton with Jose could be a HUGE development. Felton was so bad as the lone PG that it's almost criminal that Woody decided to go that way. The media kept mentioning over and over how when Prigs was in there with Felton the Knicks production jumped. Woody's decisions negatively impacted the Knicks last year. JR Smith KILLED the Knicks for most of last year and yet everyone seems to point to Bargs as the Culprit.

This begins with J.R. Smith, who has started in three of the four games the Knicks have played since he's returned. Head coach Mike Woodson is already considering sending him back to the bench, and it's obvious why. He's shooting 26.9 percent from beyond the arc and 22.6 percent overall while putting up 13.3 shots a game. Despite making a total of 12 of his 53 attempts, he has increased his amount of shots he's taken in each game he's played. He is clearly losing this battle:

The best adjustment the Knicks can make is starting Pablo Prigioni. Prigioni's inclusion in the starting lineup was a part of a big turnaround for the Knicks last season. New York won 16 of their final 18 games after his first start with the team and the Knicks went on a 13-game winning streak during that stretch. Smith has cut into Prigioni's playing time since returning. Over the first five games of the season Prigioni averaged 21.8 minutes per game. In the four since Smith has returned, his minutes have been cut down to 10.8 per game.

Prigioni fits well with the starting lineup because he won't take many field goals (averaging just 2.8 per game right now) and his ball-handling abilities allows Anthony and Felton to play off the ball. This removes the redundancy of having both Smith and Anthony on the court at the same time and opens up the team's possibilities in half-court sets. Starting Prigioni helped the Knicks last season and should help again this time around. It also allows Smith to come in firing off the bench, a role that suited him well last season.

Prigioni has played with the starting five mentioned above, replacing Smith, but this has only happened in three games for a total of 24 minutes. Playing with such a small sample size is a dead end. Instead, let's compare their on/off numbers in general:

Prigioni has yielded a better offensive and defensive rating than Smith while he's on the court this season, a trend that also held up last year. When Smith isn't on the floor, the Knicks are actually putting up better efficiency numbers on both ends of the floor. Playing Prigioni more and limiting Smith's minutes is a simple change to implement and should provide an immediate boost to the Knicks.

Woodson doesn't need to re-invent the wheel to get this team on the right track. He can take a page out of a book he discovered last season and has clear results to support his decision. Before the team makes a panic trade, like desperately sending off a promising 23-year-old wing like Shumpert or causing irreparable damage in some other unimaginable way, why not take a step back and try something that's proven to work?

jrodmc wrote:Like it matters. Both Bargs and Jason will be lucky to total 40 games between them next year. We got Bargs as damaged goods and he lived up to that. Despite my dreams of him being the anti-Hibbert at C. Why is Jason Smith going to be any different? Because he's got that ugly McHale j down pat? I'm hoping at least one of them makes it out of training camp alive.

This is like counting on Stat to reproduce the first half of 2010 for a full season.

As far as making stupid statements about how Jason shoots, at least recognize that he is an effective scorer and can fit in this system. The point of this thread is how these guys can actually fit into the scheme. Phil is no fool. He's made sure to bring in players that he believes will be able to excel in this system on this roster. He's been trying to balance the roster and I'm sure he's thinking of how players will be able to work with each other. He's giving Fish pieces in his tool box that he can get the job done with. IMO I think Phil is looking to have a team of interchangeable parts that will allow Fish to go with a deep rotation. That should help guys stay healthy too.

am i trying to be pessimistic? no
am i bashing him no?
do i hate andrea bargnani? nope
is it personal? no

just being realistic.

this team needs defense more than offense. id rather play dalembert and cole simply because we need better rim protection (jose is a doormat)

nixluva wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

nixluva wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Like it matters. Both Bargs and Jason will be lucky to total 40 games between them next year. We got Bargs as damaged goods and he lived up to that. Despite my dreams of him being the anti-Hibbert at C. Why is Jason Smith going to be any different? Because he's got that ugly McHale j down pat? I'm hoping at least one of them makes it out of training camp alive.

This is like counting on Stat to reproduce the first half of 2010 for a full season.

We may not have perfect health, but we've got depth. Neither guy has been able to play an entire season the last few years. That doesn't mean they can't do it. Bargs unlike Jason hasn't had any knee surgery. Aside from trying to dunk after coming from the perimeter I think Bargs can stay healthy. He's had 2 seasons where he got hurt on dunk attempts from too far out and a smaller quicker player undercut him. That's something he can surely avoid. In this system he'll be put in better positions where he won't have to try and do such things. Like Amar'e both guys will have to learn to tone it down a bit and still be productive. It's something that they can do. Learning to protect yourself and save yourself for the long haul. Aside from Cole almost all of our bigs have to do this. Just being smarter and not playing like a test crash dummy. Take the easy play and use good technique. It's the way guys who aren't athletic learn to play the game.

As far as making stupid statements about how Jason shoots, at least recognize that he is an effective scorer and can fit in this system. The point of this thread is how these guys can actually fit into the scheme. Phil is no fool. He's made sure to bring in players that he believes will be able to excel in this system on this roster. He's been trying to balance the roster and I'm sure he's thinking of how players will be able to work with each other. He's giving Fish pieces in his tool box that he can get the job done with. IMO I think Phil is looking to have a team of interchangeable parts that will allow Fish to go with a deep rotation. That should help guys stay healthy too.

Stupid statements? You're basing the apparent future health of two "crash test dummies" on systems, re-learning their game and a rookie coach going deep into his bench. I'm sorry, I thought this was the NBA, where serious splinters happen after the #9 slot?

I'm just wondering how two guys with the health history these guys have are suddenly going to be counted on to start for any length of time. I'm not disputing Jason Smith's scoring ability; I watched the Pelicans highlights too. The question isn't whether he fits into the system, it's whether he's going to be around to fit into it.

Bargs is just laughably awful. Like I said, keep wishing for the return of the Phoenix Stat. You'll get better odds.

Yes I said "stupid statements about how Jason Shoots" cuz it was a stupid statement. He shot very well and was a very effective shooter in PnP as I posted earlier in the thread. Who cares what his shot looks like when he's been effective with it? That's what I was talking about.

I'm not basing the "future" on the Health of Bargs and Jason. Let's relax a bit since they're both on one year contractually. I'm saying that they fit the system. I suggested that they can help themselves by not playing recklessly. STAT has had to learn how to do that as well as other players. It's not necessary for them to be effective to just throw their bodies around. Jason had loose pieces of cartilage removed back in February. He's expected to be fine. I'm sure Phil looked into this before signing him. I'm sure Jason and Bargs both want to have a full season and a good season since their next contracts will depend on that. It's excellent motivation for doing the right thing. I'm sure they'll both be looking for any advice to help make this a successful year.

I applaud your optimism, I really do, but the "future" this thread refers to is this season's starting line up, not the next two or three years.

My stupid comment about Jason's channeling of McHale/Jamaal Wilkes was not to disparage his scoring, but to point out that there's really nothing to base the stupid statement of him starting due to the fact that he probably will be on the IR for an extended period of time. Peace, bro.

Look at their histories, is all I'm saying. Smith hasn't had a full season in 6 years, and Bargs has broken down the last three seasons in a row. Not people who you would really want to count on to start, right?