TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Yes we had injuries do had a bunch of other teams. The Bulls competed just fine without their best player playing. The reason they are able to do that is because they have a balanced roster with two way players. We will always have crappy players and walking wounded because that's all we will ever afford when we give MELO his 26M. The point is nothing is ever good enough for our Melo who is always the victim. It's always somebody else's fault. This player and his fans both seem to subscribe to the concept of zero accountability.

But you, tkf, dk7th, Bonn, Clean, starksnewing, hell even myself have put blame on him when it was necessary. DK and TKF even put blame on him when it's not necessary. Your username is dedicated to you not wanting him here. It seems to me that there are people who are holding him accountable but you're only focusing on the few who you think aren't.

I am not attacking anyone personally. I have been using generalizations. People who respond to that are the ones who have something personally invested against the generalization. People are free to defend Melo all they like and I should be free to comment on it. I really don't see the issue here?

No issue at all. I just don't see where the "it's never Melo's fault" narrative comes from. It started 2 seasons ago after we got eliminated by Indiana. The people I named, I wasn't attacking them personally. I was using them - and myself - as an example of people here who do hold Melo accountable. So I don't see how Melo's always getting excuses.

well but there ARE people who refuse to see carmelo anthony as part of the problem, the lack of success. so if people don't see him as part of the problem, then he must be part of the solution, and he is just getting a bad rap because it's everyone else around him who are just not good enough.

hand in hand with this fallacy is the spurious notion that he has "carried the team on his back" with his very dubious heroics, based on one and only one aspect of the game, which is scoring.

not rebounding, not defense. one look at his RPM is proof enough of that.

not playmaking. one look at his usage to assist rate is proof enough of that.

defense and playmaking make you part of the solution. you don;t bring that then you're part of something else. and if you get paid the max then you are REALLY a big part of the problem.

What I don't like is when those handful of people are magnified to seem like the majority.

And going by your post, you must think Amare is part of the problem too? Thing is he gets nowhere near the crap Melo does. I don't think anyone on this team, at any point, should be exempt from criticism.

just found this nugget from a wojo article: "As one official involved in the recruiting process told Yahoo, "He just wants to feel like he's not all alone on the court."

sounds like an innocent victim to me, someone who refuses to hold himself personally accountable, now doesn't it? guess what melo, you should have taken the free agent route back in 2011. and now it looks to happen all over again. if jackson quits we know it was dolan again.

there is no majority here except those that enjoy mirroring melo's approach to the game and to life. get mine first and never mind the result. get all the money i can and let others worry about building a winner. and then complain that i don't have enough help.

amare doesn't get the crap melo does because he came here as a free agent. but stat definitely gets crap from people around here, plenty of it... and mostly from melo apologists!

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Yes we had injuries do had a bunch of other teams. The Bulls competed just fine without their best player playing. The reason they are able to do that is because they have a balanced roster with two way players. We will always have crappy players and walking wounded because that's all we will ever afford when we give MELO his 26M. The point is nothing is ever good enough for our Melo who is always the victim. It's always somebody else's fault. This player and his fans both seem to subscribe to the concept of zero accountability.

But you, tkf, dk7th, Bonn, Clean, starksnewing, hell even myself have put blame on him when it was necessary. DK and TKF even put blame on him when it's not necessary. Your username is dedicated to you not wanting him here. It seems to me that there are people who are holding him accountable but you're only focusing on the few who you think aren't.

I am not attacking anyone personally. I have been using generalizations. People who respond to that are the ones who have something personally invested against the generalization. People are free to defend Melo all they like and I should be free to comment on it. I really don't see the issue here?

No issue at all. I just don't see where the "it's never Melo's fault" narrative comes from. It started 2 seasons ago after we got eliminated by Indiana. The people I named, I wasn't attacking them personally. I was using them - and myself - as an example of people here who do hold Melo accountable. So I don't see how Melo's always getting excuses.

well but there ARE people who refuse to see carmelo anthony as part of the problem, the lack of success. so if people don't see him as part of the problem, then he must be part of the solution, and he is just getting a bad rap because it's everyone else around him who are just not good enough.

hand in hand with this fallacy is the spurious notion that he has "carried the team on his back" with his very dubious heroics, based on one and only one aspect of the game, which is scoring.

not rebounding, not defense. one look at his RPM is proof enough of that.

not playmaking. one look at his usage to assist rate is proof enough of that.

defense and playmaking make you part of the solution. you don;t bring that then you're part of something else. and if you get paid the max then you are REALLY a big part of the problem.

What I don't like is when those handful of people are magnified to seem like the majority.

And going by your post, you must think Amare is part of the problem too? Thing is he gets nowhere near the crap Melo does. I don't think anyone on this team, at any point, should be exempt from criticism.

just found this nugget from a wojo article: "As one official involved in the recruiting process told Yahoo, "He just wants to feel like he's not all alone on the court."

sounds like an innocent victim to me, someone who refuses to hold himself personally accountable, now doesn't it? guess what melo, you should have taken the free agent route back in 2011. and now it looks to happen all over again. if jackson quits we know it was dolan again.

there is no majority here except those that enjoy mirroring melo's approach to the game and to life. get mine first and never mind the result. get all the money i can and let others worry about building a winner. and then complain that i don't have enough help.

amare doesn't get the crap melo does because he came here as a free agent. but stat definitely gets crap from people around here, plenty of it... and mostly from melo apologists!

And so it's alright if you make max money but don't defend, rebound, or be a playmaker as long as you came here as a FA?

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Yes we had injuries do had a bunch of other teams. The Bulls competed just fine without their best player playing. The reason they are able to do that is because they have a balanced roster with two way players. We will always have crappy players and walking wounded because that's all we will ever afford when we give MELO his 26M. The point is nothing is ever good enough for our Melo who is always the victim. It's always somebody else's fault. This player and his fans both seem to subscribe to the concept of zero accountability.

But you, tkf, dk7th, Bonn, Clean, starksnewing, hell even myself have put blame on him when it was necessary. DK and TKF even put blame on him when it's not necessary. Your username is dedicated to you not wanting him here. It seems to me that there are people who are holding him accountable but you're only focusing on the few who you think aren't.

I am not attacking anyone personally. I have been using generalizations. People who respond to that are the ones who have something personally invested against the generalization. People are free to defend Melo all they like and I should be free to comment on it. I really don't see the issue here?

No issue at all. I just don't see where the "it's never Melo's fault" narrative comes from. It started 2 seasons ago after we got eliminated by Indiana. The people I named, I wasn't attacking them personally. I was using them - and myself - as an example of people here who do hold Melo accountable. So I don't see how Melo's always getting excuses.

well but there ARE people who refuse to see carmelo anthony as part of the problem, the lack of success. so if people don't see him as part of the problem, then he must be part of the solution, and he is just getting a bad rap because it's everyone else around him who are just not good enough.

hand in hand with this fallacy is the spurious notion that he has "carried the team on his back" with his very dubious heroics, based on one and only one aspect of the game, which is scoring.

not rebounding, not defense. one look at his RPM is proof enough of that.

not playmaking. one look at his usage to assist rate is proof enough of that.

defense and playmaking make you part of the solution. you don;t bring that then you're part of something else. and if you get paid the max then you are REALLY a big part of the problem.

What I don't like is when those handful of people are magnified to seem like the majority.

And going by your post, you must think Amare is part of the problem too? Thing is he gets nowhere near the crap Melo does. I don't think anyone on this team, at any point, should be exempt from criticism.

just found this nugget from a wojo article: "As one official involved in the recruiting process told Yahoo, "He just wants to feel like he's not all alone on the court."

sounds like an innocent victim to me, someone who refuses to hold himself personally accountable, now doesn't it? guess what melo, you should have taken the free agent route back in 2011. and now it looks to happen all over again. if jackson quits we know it was dolan again.

there is no majority here except those that enjoy mirroring melo's approach to the game and to life. get mine first and never mind the result. get all the money i can and let others worry about building a winner. and then complain that i don't have enough help.

amare doesn't get the crap melo does because he came here as a free agent. but stat definitely gets crap from people around here, plenty of it... and mostly from melo apologists!

Dude ... this really smells of your double standards.

I don't hear you giving Amare crap and its complete BS. Be honest - mr RPM.

i gave amare plenty of crap when it was HIS TEAM and he was RELEVANT. i wrote about it frequently, every game. you can ask tkf unless you have alienated him. since that is years ago now you will have to google "dk7th realgm stoudemire" and see for yourself. terrible defender, tunnel-vision, is basically a finisher who owes a huge chunk of his career to steve nash.

i don't believe in hypocritical positions. he came as a free agent, so his harm to the team is less than the other guy who CAME AFTERWARDS and is getting paid even more money... and who came at the expense of a decent young group of players under a decent gm and a decent coach. who has cost the team more?

stoudemire cost dolan more than he cost the knicks.
dolan and melo cost the knicks far more.

i know that this outrages some people around here but that is my take-- not gonna change.

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Yes we had injuries do had a bunch of other teams. The Bulls competed just fine without their best player playing. The reason they are able to do that is because they have a balanced roster with two way players. We will always have crappy players and walking wounded because that's all we will ever afford when we give MELO his 26M. The point is nothing is ever good enough for our Melo who is always the victim. It's always somebody else's fault. This player and his fans both seem to subscribe to the concept of zero accountability.

But you, tkf, dk7th, Bonn, Clean, starksnewing, hell even myself have put blame on him when it was necessary. DK and TKF even put blame on him when it's not necessary. Your username is dedicated to you not wanting him here. It seems to me that there are people who are holding him accountable but you're only focusing on the few who you think aren't.

I am not attacking anyone personally. I have been using generalizations. People who respond to that are the ones who have something personally invested against the generalization. People are free to defend Melo all they like and I should be free to comment on it. I really don't see the issue here?

No issue at all. I just don't see where the "it's never Melo's fault" narrative comes from. It started 2 seasons ago after we got eliminated by Indiana. The people I named, I wasn't attacking them personally. I was using them - and myself - as an example of people here who do hold Melo accountable. So I don't see how Melo's always getting excuses.

well but there ARE people who refuse to see carmelo anthony as part of the problem, the lack of success. so if people don't see him as part of the problem, then he must be part of the solution, and he is just getting a bad rap because it's everyone else around him who are just not good enough.

hand in hand with this fallacy is the spurious notion that he has "carried the team on his back" with his very dubious heroics, based on one and only one aspect of the game, which is scoring.

not rebounding, not defense. one look at his RPM is proof enough of that.

not playmaking. one look at his usage to assist rate is proof enough of that.

defense and playmaking make you part of the solution. you don;t bring that then you're part of something else. and if you get paid the max then you are REALLY a big part of the problem.

What I don't like is when those handful of people are magnified to seem like the majority.

And going by your post, you must think Amare is part of the problem too? Thing is he gets nowhere near the crap Melo does. I don't think anyone on this team, at any point, should be exempt from criticism.

just found this nugget from a wojo article: "As one official involved in the recruiting process told Yahoo, "He just wants to feel like he's not all alone on the court."

sounds like an innocent victim to me, someone who refuses to hold himself personally accountable, now doesn't it? guess what melo, you should have taken the free agent route back in 2011. and now it looks to happen all over again. if jackson quits we know it was dolan again.

there is no majority here except those that enjoy mirroring melo's approach to the game and to life. get mine first and never mind the result. get all the money i can and let others worry about building a winner. and then complain that i don't have enough help.

amare doesn't get the crap melo does because he came here as a free agent. but stat definitely gets crap from people around here, plenty of it... and mostly from melo apologists!

Well, assuming Melo stays, let's hope Fisher and Phil hold him accountable.

And so it's alright if you make max money but don't defend, rebound, or be a playmaker as long as you came here as a FA?

that is too simplistic, but the short answer is yes.

the longer answer:

as i just posted, i was highly critical of stoudemire's game when he came to the knicks as a free agent. he came to a young, germinal team that had been assembled at the same time as the previous disaster was being torn down. i liked the young players we had, except for felton. the only major argument was over who was the better player between wilson and danilo.

i held my nose with the stoudemire contract. i knew dolan forced this acquisition to happen, as not landing any big name that summer after two seasons of "being competitive" (ha ha) was out of the question for dolan and his riffraff fanbase.

still, it was only dolan's money, not the assets that walsh was paid and entrusted to acquire.

but as expensive as stoudemire was, nobody in their right mind would compound the problem by doing what dolan did in acquiring anthony. and dolan could not have done what he did unless anthony had a pivotal role.

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Yes we had injuries do had a bunch of other teams. The Bulls competed just fine without their best player playing. The reason they are able to do that is because they have a balanced roster with two way players. We will always have crappy players and walking wounded because that's all we will ever afford when we give MELO his 26M. The point is nothing is ever good enough for our Melo who is always the victim. It's always somebody else's fault. This player and his fans both seem to subscribe to the concept of zero accountability.

But you, tkf, dk7th, Bonn, Clean, starksnewing, hell even myself have put blame on him when it was necessary. DK and TKF even put blame on him when it's not necessary. Your username is dedicated to you not wanting him here. It seems to me that there are people who are holding him accountable but you're only focusing on the few who you think aren't.

I am not attacking anyone personally. I have been using generalizations. People who respond to that are the ones who have something personally invested against the generalization. People are free to defend Melo all they like and I should be free to comment on it. I really don't see the issue here?

No issue at all. I just don't see where the "it's never Melo's fault" narrative comes from. It started 2 seasons ago after we got eliminated by Indiana. The people I named, I wasn't attacking them personally. I was using them - and myself - as an example of people here who do hold Melo accountable. So I don't see how Melo's always getting excuses.

well but there ARE people who refuse to see carmelo anthony as part of the problem, the lack of success. so if people don't see him as part of the problem, then he must be part of the solution, and he is just getting a bad rap because it's everyone else around him who are just not good enough.

hand in hand with this fallacy is the spurious notion that he has "carried the team on his back" with his very dubious heroics, based on one and only one aspect of the game, which is scoring.

not rebounding, not defense. one look at his RPM is proof enough of that.

not playmaking. one look at his usage to assist rate is proof enough of that.

defense and playmaking make you part of the solution. you don;t bring that then you're part of something else. and if you get paid the max then you are REALLY a big part of the problem.

What I don't like is when those handful of people are magnified to seem like the majority.

And going by your post, you must think Amare is part of the problem too? Thing is he gets nowhere near the crap Melo does. I don't think anyone on this team, at any point, should be exempt from criticism.

just found this nugget from a wojo article: "As one official involved in the recruiting process told Yahoo, "He just wants to feel like he's not all alone on the court."

sounds like an innocent victim to me, someone who refuses to hold himself personally accountable, now doesn't it? guess what melo, you should have taken the free agent route back in 2011. and now it looks to happen all over again. if jackson quits we know it was dolan again.

there is no majority here except those that enjoy mirroring melo's approach to the game and to life. get mine first and never mind the result. get all the money i can and let others worry about building a winner. and then complain that i don't have enough help.

amare doesn't get the crap melo does because he came here as a free agent. but stat definitely gets crap from people around here, plenty of it... and mostly from melo apologists!

Well, assuming Melo stays, let's hope Fisher and Phil hold him accountable.

And so it's alright if you make max money but don't defend, rebound, or be a playmaker as long as you came here as a FA?

that is too simplistic, but the short answer is yes.

the longer answer:

as i just posted, i was highly critical of stoudemire's game when he came to the knicks as a free agent. he came to a young, germinal team that had been assembled at the same time as the previous disaster was being torn down. i liked the young players we had, except for felton. the only major argument was over who was the better player between wilson and danilo.

i held my nose with the stoudemire contract. i knew dolan forced this acquisition to happen, as not landing any big name that summer after two seasons of "being competitive" (ha ha) was out of the question for dolan and his riffraff fanbase.

still, it was only dolan's money, not the assets that walsh was paid and entrusted to acquire.

but as expensive as stoudemire was, nobody in their right mind would compound the problem by doing what dolan did in acquiring anthony. and dolan could not have done what he did unless anthony had a pivotal role.

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Yes we had injuries do had a bunch of other teams. The Bulls competed just fine without their best player playing. The reason they are able to do that is because they have a balanced roster with two way players. We will always have crappy players and walking wounded because that's all we will ever afford when we give MELO his 26M. The point is nothing is ever good enough for our Melo who is always the victim. It's always somebody else's fault. This player and his fans both seem to subscribe to the concept of zero accountability.

But you, tkf, dk7th, Bonn, Clean, starksnewing, hell even myself have put blame on him when it was necessary. DK and TKF even put blame on him when it's not necessary. Your username is dedicated to you not wanting him here. It seems to me that there are people who are holding him accountable but you're only focusing on the few who you think aren't.

I am not attacking anyone personally. I have been using generalizations. People who respond to that are the ones who have something personally invested against the generalization. People are free to defend Melo all they like and I should be free to comment on it. I really don't see the issue here?

No issue at all. I just don't see where the "it's never Melo's fault" narrative comes from. It started 2 seasons ago after we got eliminated by Indiana. The people I named, I wasn't attacking them personally. I was using them - and myself - as an example of people here who do hold Melo accountable. So I don't see how Melo's always getting excuses.

well but there ARE people who refuse to see carmelo anthony as part of the problem, the lack of success. so if people don't see him as part of the problem, then he must be part of the solution, and he is just getting a bad rap because it's everyone else around him who are just not good enough.

hand in hand with this fallacy is the spurious notion that he has "carried the team on his back" with his very dubious heroics, based on one and only one aspect of the game, which is scoring.

not rebounding, not defense. one look at his RPM is proof enough of that.

not playmaking. one look at his usage to assist rate is proof enough of that.

defense and playmaking make you part of the solution. you don;t bring that then you're part of something else. and if you get paid the max then you are REALLY a big part of the problem.

What I don't like is when those handful of people are magnified to seem like the majority.

And going by your post, you must think Amare is part of the problem too? Thing is he gets nowhere near the crap Melo does. I don't think anyone on this team, at any point, should be exempt from criticism.

just found this nugget from a wojo article: "As one official involved in the recruiting process told Yahoo, "He just wants to feel like he's not all alone on the court."

sounds like an innocent victim to me, someone who refuses to hold himself personally accountable, now doesn't it? guess what melo, you should have taken the free agent route back in 2011. and now it looks to happen all over again. if jackson quits we know it was dolan again.

there is no majority here except those that enjoy mirroring melo's approach to the game and to life. get mine first and never mind the result. get all the money i can and let others worry about building a winner. and then complain that i don't have enough help.

amare doesn't get the crap melo does because he came here as a free agent. but stat definitely gets crap from people around here, plenty of it... and mostly from melo apologists!

Dude ... this really smells of your double standards.

I don't hear you giving Amare crap and its complete BS. Be honest - mr RPM.

i gave amare plenty of crap when it was HIS TEAM and he was RELEVANT. i wrote about it frequently, every game. you can ask tkf unless you have alienated him. since that is years ago now you will have to google "dk7th realgm stoudemire" and see for yourself. terrible defender, tunnel-vision, is basically a finisher who owes a huge chunk of his career to steve nash.

i don't believe in hypocritical positions. he came as a free agent, so his harm to the team is less than the other guy who CAME AFTERWARDS and is getting paid even more money... and who came at the expense of a decent young group of players under a decent gm and a decent coach. who has cost the team more?

stoudemire cost dolan more than he cost the knicks.
dolan and melo cost the knicks far more.

i know that this outrages some people around here but that is my take-- not gonna change.

We can agree to disagree.

If the knicks built around Melo with the Stat money they could have been a legit contender. If they built around stat with the Melo money/assets, I don't think they contend at all. Maybe they get lucky with trading those assets for picks ... who knows. Stat has/had severely negative value and is/was a sinking ship.

I am not a big fan of Melo's game but there is deep value there which is obviously why so many teams want him (as opposed to Amare who nobody wanted).

I would have loved to see a team of Lowry, Melo and Milsap as a base with a deep bench. THIS WAS VERY DOABLE! Yet we signed Chandler and effed it all up AGAIN!

The knicks did give up too much in the Denver trade but at least they ended up overpaying for value. Not garbage like Amare.

Signing Amare (and then not amnestying him), Chandler and trading for Bargs were/are what killed us. If not for these, we could have built a solid contender - if you like Melo or not.

if you are going to make comparisons they have to actually have some bearing on the possible, don't they?

i mean to say that you can't swap out melo for stoudmire in your hypothetical because WE ALREADY HAD STOUDEMIRE AND BUILDING AROUND MELO WAS AN IMPOSSIBILITY.

i prefer to hypothesize on what is possible! that you do not only weakens your argument here. surely you can see that?

on another note:

http://www.gotbuckets.com/2013/10/30/testing-the-predictive-power-of-apm-per-and-ws48/

Amnestying Amare was the way out of it. I have said this numerous times. We wasted the golden parachute that would have gotten us out of the sh1t hole that Amare put us in.

Hypothesis? Getting Bargs instead of Lowry.

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Yes we had injuries do had a bunch of other teams. The Bulls competed just fine without their best player playing. The reason they are able to do that is because they have a balanced roster with two way players. We will always have crappy players and walking wounded because that's all we will ever afford when we give MELO his 26M. The point is nothing is ever good enough for our Melo who is always the victim. It's always somebody else's fault. This player and his fans both seem to subscribe to the concept of zero accountability.

But you, tkf, dk7th, Bonn, Clean, starksnewing, hell even myself have put blame on him when it was necessary. DK and TKF even put blame on him when it's not necessary. Your username is dedicated to you not wanting him here. It seems to me that there are people who are holding him accountable but you're only focusing on the few who you think aren't.

I am not attacking anyone personally. I have been using generalizations. People who respond to that are the ones who have something personally invested against the generalization. People are free to defend Melo all they like and I should be free to comment on it. I really don't see the issue here?

No issue at all. I just don't see where the "it's never Melo's fault" narrative comes from. It started 2 seasons ago after we got eliminated by Indiana. The people I named, I wasn't attacking them personally. I was using them - and myself - as an example of people here who do hold Melo accountable. So I don't see how Melo's always getting excuses.

well but there ARE people who refuse to see carmelo anthony as part of the problem, the lack of success. so if people don't see him as part of the problem, then he must be part of the solution, and he is just getting a bad rap because it's everyone else around him who are just not good enough.

hand in hand with this fallacy is the spurious notion that he has "carried the team on his back" with his very dubious heroics, based on one and only one aspect of the game, which is scoring.

not rebounding, not defense. one look at his RPM is proof enough of that.

not playmaking. one look at his usage to assist rate is proof enough of that.

defense and playmaking make you part of the solution. you don;t bring that then you're part of something else. and if you get paid the max then you are REALLY a big part of the problem.

What I don't like is when those handful of people are magnified to seem like the majority.

And going by your post, you must think Amare is part of the problem too? Thing is he gets nowhere near the crap Melo does. I don't think anyone on this team, at any point, should be exempt from criticism.

just found this nugget from a wojo article: "As one official involved in the recruiting process told Yahoo, "He just wants to feel like he's not all alone on the court."

sounds like an innocent victim to me, someone who refuses to hold himself personally accountable, now doesn't it? guess what melo, you should have taken the free agent route back in 2011. and now it looks to happen all over again. if jackson quits we know it was dolan again.

there is no majority here except those that enjoy mirroring melo's approach to the game and to life. get mine first and never mind the result. get all the money i can and let others worry about building a winner. and then complain that i don't have enough help.

amare doesn't get the crap melo does because he came here as a free agent. but stat definitely gets crap from people around here, plenty of it... and mostly from melo apologists!

Well, assuming Melo stays, let's hope Fisher and Phil hold him accountable.

And so it's alright if you make max money but don't defend, rebound, or be a playmaker as long as you came here as a FA?

that is too simplistic, but the short answer is yes.

the longer answer:

as i just posted, i was highly critical of stoudemire's game when he came to the knicks as a free agent. he came to a young, germinal team that had been assembled at the same time as the previous disaster was being torn down. i liked the young players we had, except for felton. the only major argument was over who was the better player between wilson and danilo.

i held my nose with the stoudemire contract. i knew dolan forced this acquisition to happen, as not landing any big name that summer after two seasons of "being competitive" (ha ha) was out of the question for dolan and his riffraff fanbase.

still, it was only dolan's money, not the assets that walsh was paid and entrusted to acquire.

but as expensive as stoudemire was, nobody in their right mind would compound the problem by doing what dolan did in acquiring anthony. and dolan could not have done what he did unless anthony had a pivotal role.

Wait hold on. You said a while ago that the acquisition was Walsh "rewarding fans for their patience" during the time before 2010 FA. Now it's Dolan?

you know what-- lets work backwards since explaining it frontways seems over many people's heads:

look at my signature and what dolan is saying, and you will recall he said it with relief and gratitude in his voice at the press conference.

add to this that he also admitted he did not know what he was doing.

he essentially alienated walsh for the way he, dolan, felt the need to play the interloper-- he just had to get his man. dolan was INVOLVED.

"walsh" brought in stoudemire after two years of roster flush and the very faint beginnings of a nice team. but walsh was making that deal because his boss mandated him to. here, too, dolan was INVOLVED. (more specifically, it was dolan's pandering, cowardice, cynicism, and greed and conceitedness that drove walsh to acquire stoudmire. me? i could have easily and gladly passed on stoudemire and spent the money differently for that season. that's a good thought experiment that i may start a new thread with.)

"walsh" hired allan houston. uhh yeah right. dolan was INVOLVED.

walsh drafted gallinari, acquired duhon, and hired d'antoni. dolan was INVOLVED.

dolan has been involved ever since isaiah thomas was ****-canned... it was what he was accustomed to and he learned from the best, didn't he?

read my signature again to see what dolan says. "I willingly and gratefully cede all power to Phil Jackson"

he also said: "i did not know what i was doing."

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:Wait hold on. You said a while ago that the acquisition was Walsh "rewarding fans for their patience" during the time before 2010 FA. Now it's Dolan?

you know what-- lets work backwards since explaining it frontways seems over many people's heads:

look at my signature and what dolan is saying, and you will recall he said it with relief and gratitude in his voice at the press conference.

add to this that he also admitted he did not know what he was doing.

he essentially alienated walsh for the way he, dolan, felt the need to play the interloper-- he just had to get his man. dolan was INVOLVED.

"walsh" brought in stoudemire after two years of roster flush and the very faint beginnings of a nice team. but walsh was making that deal because his boss mandated him to. here, too, dolan was INVOLVED. (more specifically, it was dolan's pandering, cowardice, cynicism, and greed and conceitedness that drove walsh to acquire stoudmire. me? i could have easily and gladly passed on stoudemire and spent the money differently for that season. that's a good thought experiment that i may start a new thread with.)

"walsh" hired allan houston. uhh yeah right. dolan was INVOLVED.

walsh drafted gallinari, acquired duhon, and hired d'antoni. dolan was INVOLVED.

dolan has been involved ever since isaiah thomas was ****-canned... it was what he was accustomed to and he learned from the best, didn't he?

read my signature again to see what dolan says. "I willingly and gratefully cede all power to Phil Jackson"

he also said: "i did not know what i was doing."

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:What are you trying to say exactly? That this team wouldn't be in this situation if Melo didn't force that trade? It's not like we weren't a laughingstock before Melo got here anyway. Had it not been Melo, it would have been someone else. Maybe even Deron Williams....

we were 28-26 and we were not a laughingstock. we were rebuilding. at least deron williams would have been filling a position of need that would fit properly with stoudemire. can't predict injuries.

is melo an innocent victim? just try to answer the question. if you don't answer in yes/no then you are just playing games.

Lol wtf is with the tone? You never asked me that question once. No he's not. I've stated several times that I mainly fault him for not asserting that the Knicks were the only team he wanted to go to and the only team he would sign the extension with. When he kept entertaining the idea of signing with the Nets, it allowed both Denver and Jersey to drive up the price. You happy?

As for the 28-26 team, I was talking in all the accumulated years before Melo got here. We were most certainly a laughing stock. Donnie was supposed to come here and erase that and he ended up making some atrocious trades (some that I believe Crush has pointed out before) and signing Amare and D'antoni. So we were a joke before this, weren't too big of a joke last season, and are now headed towards being a joke once again. You cannot blame all of that on Melo.

cool. so melo helped create the mess here. glad you see it that way. i thought it would end up a mess the minute the trade happened. pissed me off.

donnie was "supposed to" clean up someone else's mess, and he did. he needed two years to do it and most were surprised that it took so little time, the mess was so horrific. in so doing he also tried to create a healthy culture that could germinate and bear fruit.

lbj collusion and plan b? okay so amare comes in and walsh, not having a decent pg to acquire, decided to give felton a two year audition and very little money until an upgrade was available. i liked that plan. i liked the young players we had. i liked that we were 28-26 and a sixth seed. there was something germinal about that team. germinal means fragile, delicate, but with some room for development. and no rebuild is going to be perfect and without blemishes. but the plan was to rebuild and that would not take the first two years of walsh's tenure but rather the next 3-5 years.

the melo trade destroyed all that. he didn't care about what sort of knick team he came to and now the chickens are coming home to roost. **** him!

Donnie was brought here to clear up room for a big name free agent. The focus was always on landing Lebron and pairing him with another big name. Him giving max money to an uninsured Amare after we struck out should say enough about the intentions of the franchise when he was here. Once again, had it not been Melo, those guys would have been shipped off for something else or just let go altogether since they were due for a payday.

you can't know that. i am dealing with facts not conjecture.

so far as walsh's intents with stoudemire, it is not a fact that it was a mistake to acquire him but it is a fact that walsh had to start someplace that summer. why is that a fact? because we all suffered from two years of emptiness and walsh had to reward our patience. it was necessary.

melo's acquisition was not a necessity-- that is a fact.

This is what you said the last time we had this discussion. What you said then is different from what you're saying now.

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:Wait hold on. You said a while ago that the acquisition was Walsh "rewarding fans for their patience" during the time before 2010 FA. Now it's Dolan?

you know what-- lets work backwards since explaining it frontways seems over many people's heads:

look at my signature and what dolan is saying, and you will recall he said it with relief and gratitude in his voice at the press conference.

add to this that he also admitted he did not know what he was doing.

he essentially alienated walsh for the way he, dolan, felt the need to play the interloper-- he just had to get his man. dolan was INVOLVED.

"walsh" brought in stoudemire after two years of roster flush and the very faint beginnings of a nice team. but walsh was making that deal because his boss mandated him to. here, too, dolan was INVOLVED. (more specifically, it was dolan's pandering, cowardice, cynicism, and greed and conceitedness that drove walsh to acquire stoudmire. me? i could have easily and gladly passed on stoudemire and spent the money differently for that season. that's a good thought experiment that i may start a new thread with.)

"walsh" hired allan houston. uhh yeah right. dolan was INVOLVED.

walsh drafted gallinari, acquired duhon, and hired d'antoni. dolan was INVOLVED.

dolan has been involved ever since isaiah thomas was ****-canned... it was what he was accustomed to and he learned from the best, didn't he?

read my signature again to see what dolan says. "I willingly and gratefully cede all power to Phil Jackson"

he also said: "i did not know what i was doing."

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

TeamBall wrote:What are you trying to say exactly? That this team wouldn't be in this situation if Melo didn't force that trade? It's not like we weren't a laughingstock before Melo got here anyway. Had it not been Melo, it would have been someone else. Maybe even Deron Williams....

we were 28-26 and we were not a laughingstock. we were rebuilding. at least deron williams would have been filling a position of need that would fit properly with stoudemire. can't predict injuries.

is melo an innocent victim? just try to answer the question. if you don't answer in yes/no then you are just playing games.

Lol wtf is with the tone? You never asked me that question once. No he's not. I've stated several times that I mainly fault him for not asserting that the Knicks were the only team he wanted to go to and the only team he would sign the extension with. When he kept entertaining the idea of signing with the Nets, it allowed both Denver and Jersey to drive up the price. You happy?

As for the 28-26 team, I was talking in all the accumulated years before Melo got here. We were most certainly a laughing stock. Donnie was supposed to come here and erase that and he ended up making some atrocious trades (some that I believe Crush has pointed out before) and signing Amare and D'antoni. So we were a joke before this, weren't too big of a joke last season, and are now headed towards being a joke once again. You cannot blame all of that on Melo.

cool. so melo helped create the mess here. glad you see it that way. i thought it would end up a mess the minute the trade happened. pissed me off.

donnie was "supposed to" clean up someone else's mess, and he did. he needed two years to do it and most were surprised that it took so little time, the mess was so horrific. in so doing he also tried to create a healthy culture that could germinate and bear fruit.

lbj collusion and plan b? okay so amare comes in and walsh, not having a decent pg to acquire, decided to give felton a two year audition and very little money until an upgrade was available. i liked that plan. i liked the young players we had. i liked that we were 28-26 and a sixth seed. there was something germinal about that team. germinal means fragile, delicate, but with some room for development. and no rebuild is going to be perfect and without blemishes. but the plan was to rebuild and that would not take the first two years of walsh's tenure but rather the next 3-5 years.

the melo trade destroyed all that. he didn't care about what sort of knick team he came to and now the chickens are coming home to roost. **** him!

Donnie was brought here to clear up room for a big name free agent. The focus was always on landing Lebron and pairing him with another big name. Him giving max money to an uninsured Amare after we struck out should say enough about the intentions of the franchise when he was here. Once again, had it not been Melo, those guys would have been shipped off for something else or just let go altogether since they were due for a payday.

you can't know that. i am dealing with facts not conjecture.

so far as walsh's intents with stoudemire, it is not a fact that it was a mistake to acquire him but it is a fact that walsh had to start someplace that summer. why is that a fact? because we all suffered from two years of emptiness and walsh had to reward our patience. it was necessary.

melo's acquisition was not a necessity-- that is a fact.

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=46863&page=4

This is what you said the last time we had this discussion. What you said then is different from what you're saying now.

nope-- just tying it all together more realistically. dolan has been steering this ship. it was his agenda, his "vision" that was being mandated. he finally realized that he has sunk to many of his own ships and is now, maybe?, allowing someone to do his job?

i think the extent of his uninvolvement would be limited to the hiring of the coach and draft picks. just a hunch.