foosballnick wrote:NardDogNation wrote:foosballnick wrote:Papabear wrote:nixluva wrote:NardDogNation wrote:knicks1248 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:markvmc wrote:Not too sure about that "future flexibility" might well include trading these guys next week.
I hope to God it mean that these guys are nothing more than a segue to bigger and better things. Calderon could have decent value for teams looking to win ASAP e.g. the Lakers (for Nash), the Pacers (for George Hill), the Kings (for expirers). If we trade Melo for the Bulls 16th and 19th, maybe we could even use Calderon to trade into the lottery with either the Lakers or Kings' pick.
And then do what, draft a 20 year old and trade him when he turns 23/24..calderon is the type of vet you need to stay competitive, he has a higher IQ then any pg we had in a while.
You bring in guys that fit your system, you don't starphuck. Dude we are looking to win ASAP, your in dream land if you think phil is building through a draft..
You think your going to entice a vet star to come here and baby sit..
You think you're going to entice a vet star to come here for Jose Calderon? Let's be serious, the only three teams that I can think of, who enticed a star to come to their team are the Celtics with KG and Allen; the Lakers with Shaq; and the Heat with LeBron and Bosh. And each of those teams had an anchored superstar/star they had drafted I.e. the Celtics had Pierce, the Lakers had Kobe, Van Exel and Eddie Jones, the Heat had Wade. So who exactly is living in a dream land?
OK guys we need to pull it back a bit. This is just a starting move. It's not THE move. It just sets the tone for what Phil is gonna be looking to do. Make smart decisions, getting talent that fits what this franchise is gonna be about. We have a system and we're getting players that fit that system. It's a new philosophy. Unlike when we brought in MDA and failed to get him players that fit his system. This time Phil is making sure we have what we need to succeed playing this style of ball.
So no Calderon isn't a player that excites other FA's, but it's the 1st brick in the building of this new team. A smart vet to help show the kids how it's done.
Papabear Says
The 1st brick to a building?? Man I'm going to bed because I don't know what you guys are drinking but it's got you confused. How did Houston get a lottery 1st round pick for Asik and we only got a second round. This was not a great deal.
Perhaps if you look at it a different way.....
Let's say that Asik and Tyson are at about equal trade value at this point in their respective careers. The Pelicans traded a 2015 first rounder for Asik (we do not know if it's lottery protected or not). The Knicks added Felton to the deal which actually lessens Tyson's value since Felton is a net negative player ranked poorly coming off of last year. Felton also has off the court issues which hurts any value he has. So essentially if Tyson and Asik have approximate equal value....then by adding Felton, the value of players/contracts the Knicks sent out is less than Asik. In return....the Knicks received a starting level PG, a 1st Round Pick PG from Last year who has value (in his potential), a former late first round pick (Ellington) who has not panned out but still has some potential to contribute as a role player or filler in future trades, a starting Center who produced approximately as well as Tyson last year and has a very flexible contract, a high 2nd Round Pick in a deep draft and a lower 2nd round pick in the same draft. This is why some are claiming this was a good/smart trade. The pieces that the Knicks received from Dallas have some value either in potential or future moves. Only time will tell how it all pans out.
You keep mentioning Calderon as being a sure-fire starter at 33 years old in spite of him not being that in his prime. Are we forgetting that men like Mike James, TJ Ford, Kyle Lowry and Jarrett Jack all started ahead of him in during his career in Toronto? And make no mistake, the 81 game season he played last season is an aberration. He has only accomplished that feat one other time in his career and generally averages about 63-68 games a season. This isn't a man you want as starter at 33 years old and with $22 million left on a 3 year deal. His presence negates whatever "value" we acquired from getting rid of Felton and for whatever else we got in the trade.
For all you guys doing backflips for Larkin, the Mavericks probably would've dumped him for cash to clear cap space this offseason. Hell, Thomas Robinson was picked 5th in his draft and was moved for 2 second round picks the following year despite showing he's starter in this league. You really think Larkin, by comparison,would demand more than that? This was a bad trade.
Couple things....
You keep mentioning $22 million for Calderon over 3 years. To adequately discuss the true salary impact, you have to include the net of Felton's contract which would make the deal have a net impact of $13.3 million over 3 years. I mention Calderon as a starter because that is what he currently would be on the Knicks, their starting PG. Of course there may be other moves which is why I indicated "only time will tell".
You mentioned Tyson as an "impact player". He might have been 2 years ago, but he was certainly not last year.
Larkin and Dalembert have extremely cap friendly deals for the Knicks....if the Knicks cut Dally - they would trim another $3.8 million off their current cap level of $59 Mil. The Knicks hold team options on Larkin for both 15 and 16 in the $1.6 mil and $2.5 mil salary ranges respectively. If he shows to be a good player - he will be a steal. If not, the contract is very tradeable.
You continue to compare this trade to the Isiah Thomas era moves. IT tended to trade away 1st round picks like they were going out of style. In this trade we acquired picks.....unlike most of our trades over the past decade. You may not like the fact that a first rounder did not come back, but it was still a smart move by Phil.
Again, do you think we would've had any difficulty in upgrading the PG position via free agency? Do you think we'd have any problems dumping Felton and cash in the last year of his contract? More importantly, would we even need to dump Felton's contract or are we going to get caught again surrendering assets to get rid of Jared Jefferies? Chances are that the latter is true ESPECIALLY if we don't keep Melo.
And as I told another poster, I haven't been thrilled with Chandler some time. But trades are like poker, you don't play your hand, you play the man in front of you. And the "man" in front of us very likely doesn't have a 5-man better than Tyson. And considering the impact big men still play on contenders, I think that we could've gotten more for Tyson and what he could still do.
As for why I keep calling this an "Isiah move", it falls in the same mold as Antonio Davis for Jalen Rose and a pick and Nazr Mohammed for Malik Rose and a pick. I liked both moves initially before finding out that the Raptors were offering Vince Carter for Mohammed and Crawford. No, Mohammed was no one to cry over but he had serious value that was not properly realized. Right now, we're giddy because this deal offered a element of the unknown, which makes it provocative. Unfortunately, that unknown involves 2nd round picks that seldom become relevant and a 5"11' player that would've been a 2nd round pick himself in this draft. Time will tell if this will work but I don't see this going well.
6/26/2014 1:42 PM LAST EDITED: 6/26/2014 1:45 PM