mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:have you watched Harden in the playoffs? Boy you guys think Melo chucks... yikes

We gotta stop the Eye tests and start checking stats.

Harden's playoff TS = 58.5!

Melos = 51.3

McHale is really doing a bad job with him. He needs to use him more effectively off the ball. And, as smart as Morey is, he gave away 2 great PG who are so desperately needed right now.

Im sorry... I was talking about the advanced stat that has the Rockets down 0-2 where Harden shot 6-19 and 8-28. Dude shot 3-14 from 3 point. Maybe you really just want to watch more JR Smith? Do you not watch basketball?

6-19 and 8-28 are ok in advanced stat world...That stat don't really count, ancient, used by native Americans...He hit free throws, how could u miss that..

Seriously? Is that really your argument (or lack thereof)? What is that?

Should Melo be judge on his 32-105 against the clippers (a worse team) in 2006?

And we have another guy who touts advanced stats and doesnt know how to look at them.

Harden playoffs TS%:
with OKC 58%, 63%, 61%
with HOu 55%, 42%

Does anyone else notice a massive drop in those #s since Harden left OKC as the 3rd option and became the first w/ Houston?

Sorry.. this is a fail

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:have you watched Harden in the playoffs? Boy you guys think Melo chucks... yikes

We gotta stop the Eye tests and start checking stats.

Harden's playoff TS = 58.5!

Melos = 51.3

McHale is really doing a bad job with him. He needs to use him more effectively off the ball. And, as smart as Morey is, he gave away 2 great PG who are so desperately needed right now.

Im sorry... I was talking about the advanced stat that has the Rockets down 0-2 where Harden shot 6-19 and 8-28. Dude shot 3-14 from 3 point. Maybe you really just want to watch more JR Smith? Do you not watch basketball?

6-19 and 8-28 are ok in advanced stat world...That stat don't really count, ancient, used by native Americans...He hit free throws, how could u miss that..

Seriously? Is that really your argument (or lack thereof)? What is that?

Should Melo be judge on his 32-105 against the clippers (a worse team) in 2006?

YES! Nuggs lost and Melo shot for crap. He played poorly. Whats the issue with that?

And we have another guy who touts advanced stats and doesnt know how to look at them.

Harden playoffs TS%:
with OKC 58%, 63%, 61%
with HOu 55%, 42%

Does anyone else notice a massive drop in those #s since Harden left OKC as the 3rd option and became the first w/ Houston?

Sorry.. this is a fail

You are not saying anything new. A number of us have already called out his alarming drop off in Houston, even in this very thread! Take some time and read it. You are the one who is jumping the gun and being closed minded.

Based on this years playoffs (so far) you have now deemed Melo as a better player/value?

C'mon man!

Btw, Melo (who I defend against dumb arguments all the time) in his same 5th year had a TS of 44.7 - that after his previous year of 58.2.

he is young and needs to tighten up his game.

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:have you watched Harden in the playoffs? Boy you guys think Melo chucks... yikes

We gotta stop the Eye tests and start checking stats.

Harden's playoff TS = 58.5!

Melos = 51.3

McHale is really doing a bad job with him. He needs to use him more effectively off the ball. And, as smart as Morey is, he gave away 2 great PG who are so desperately needed right now.

Most of that's from playing with Durant and Westbrook- if Melo played with Durant and Westbrook, he'd have a higher TS %. that's the thing with stats, it ignores context.

Sorry but this assertion is simply unsubstantiated. How come Harden was so efficient in the regular season in Houston?

Is there proof that playing with better player makes you that more efficient? If you have any, please provide.

Certainly opened/uncontested shots or scored at a more efficient rate vs contested shots (I believe that its something like a 12% increase) but that also has a lot to do with the system and the individual player and if they ISO, go 1 on 1, if they are willing to play off the ball etc ...

There are many efficient players who are efficient no matter where they go or who they play with.

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:have you watched Harden in the playoffs? Boy you guys think Melo chucks... yikes

We gotta stop the Eye tests and start checking stats.

Harden's playoff TS = 58.5!

Melos = 51.3

McHale is really doing a bad job with him. He needs to use him more effectively off the ball. And, as smart as Morey is, he gave away 2 great PG who are so desperately needed right now.

Most of that's from playing with Durant and Westbrook- if Melo played with Durant and Westbrook, he'd have a higher TS %. that's the thing with stats, it ignores context.

Sorry but this assertion is simply unsubstantiated. How come Harden was so efficient in the regular season in Houston?

There is no proof that playing with better player makes you more efficient. If you have any, please provide.

I guess you would have to look at on/of numbers around the league. Just a little while ago I was looking at an old article about how Melo's teammates TS% increased by 3+% with him on the floor. That was before he was an efficient player. I'd imagine Melo is not the only "good player" that would help his teammates efficiency.

this is a touchy subject and it may also have a lot to do with specific 5 man rotations and other variables.

I am open to the idea, I would just like to see data, and not just for one player.

For example, Battier's shooting pct is far lower with lebron. Hardens's is equal (houston and okc). Bosh's is practically equal and his pct was better in toronto if you take away his bad rookie season.

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:have you watched Harden in the playoffs? Boy you guys think Melo chucks... yikes

We gotta stop the Eye tests and start checking stats.

Harden's playoff TS = 58.5!

Melos = 51.3

McHale is really doing a bad job with him. He needs to use him more effectively off the ball. And, as smart as Morey is, he gave away 2 great PG who are so desperately needed right now.

Most of that's from playing with Durant and Westbrook- if Melo played with Durant and Westbrook, he'd have a higher TS %. that's the thing with stats, it ignores context.

Sorry but this assertion is simply unsubstantiated. How come Harden was so efficient in the regular season in Houston?

There is no proof that playing with better player makes you more efficient. If you have any, please provide.

I guess you would have to look at on/of numbers around the league. Just a little while ago I was looking at an old article about how Melo's teammates TS% increased by 3+% with him on the floor. That was before he was an efficient player. I'd imagine Melo is not the only "good player" that would help his teammates efficiency.

this is a touchy subject and it may also have a lot to do with specific 5 man rotations and other variables.

I am open to the idea, I would just like to see data, and not just for one player.

For example, Battier's shooting pct is far lower with lebron. Hardens's is equal (houston and okc). Bosh's is practically equal and his pct was better in toronto if you take away his bad rookie season.

I guess these are the kind of numbers that teams have internally throughout the league. They probably have data of how this player helps that player and so on.

82games has a lot of good data on 5 man rotations but yes, teams have a lot of internal data.

Here is a great article about Dr Wayne Winston who used to help the knicks and dallas (championship season) with the most efficient 5 man rotations:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/dr-wayne-winstons-may-nba-sabermetrics-did-mlb-155600962--nba.html

dk7th wrote:the issue with harden from an advanced stat standpoint is that the balance between his usage rate and his assist rate has gotten out of balance compared with the regular season. this lack of balance represents that he must be pounding the ball more than usual and forcing too many bad shots. he has gone from 15.6 during the regular season to 23.5 shots per game in the playoffs. you can't have that and hope to succeed.

he is young and needs to tighten up his game.

DK you take no issue with his defensive effort? It was pretty atrocious all year long. I know you don't like players who don't defend or at least try.

H1AND1 wrote:

dk7th wrote:the issue with harden from an advanced stat standpoint is that the balance between his usage rate and his assist rate has gotten out of balance compared with the regular season. this lack of balance represents that he must be pounding the ball more than usual and forcing too many bad shots. he has gone from 15.6 during the regular season to 23.5 shots per game in the playoffs. you can't have that and hope to succeed.

he is young and needs to tighten up his game.

DK you take no issue with his defensive effort? It was pretty atrocious all year long. I know you don't like players who don't defend or at least try.

you're right i take issue with any player who doesn't defend. in the playoffs such players will become a liability too often. the only principle that occasionally trumps that is how much of an offensive force the player is on terms of scoring efficiency and facilitating/making others around him better. the end result should be a positive-sum player. nash should have gotten a ring. magic and bird are top 5 players all time. dirk developed a low post, shoot off the wrong foot, pass out of doubles more quickly, so he has become more immune.

right now harden appears to remain a regular-season hero and that has to change. if he doesn't change then by the end of next season he will be overpaid.

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:have you watched Harden in the playoffs? Boy you guys think Melo chucks... yikes

We gotta stop the Eye tests and start checking stats.

Harden's playoff TS = 58.5!

Melos = 51.3

McHale is really doing a bad job with him. He needs to use him more effectively off the ball. And, as smart as Morey is, he gave away 2 great PG who are so desperately needed right now.

Most of that's from playing with Durant and Westbrook- if Melo played with Durant and Westbrook, he'd have a higher TS %. that's the thing with stats, it ignores context.

Sorry but this assertion is simply unsubstantiated. How come Harden was so efficient in the regular season in Houston?

Is there proof that playing with better player makes you that more efficient? If you have any, please provide.

That's one of my problems with advanced stats- people no longer use common sense or trust their own judgement unless some sort of number tells them what to think! It's basic basketball knowledge- if you're the best player on the team and your teammates are trash and can't shoot, then the opposing defense can just zero's in on that player and through double and triple teams at them (see Melo vs the entire Pacers defense last years playoffs, or vs the Miami Heat the year before). If Melo played beside Lebron and Dwade, do you really think he would have had it as tough vs the Pacers?!

Harden was on a team of excellent three point shooters and Dwight Howard during the regular season- the defense can't just key in on him, so he has a bit more freedom.