mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:I don't believe that dk would say otherwise. I hope that I am not wrong.

Timeout. Is this actually being discussed in another thread? What's the title?

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=47101&page=19

Dude, just don't bother. You could substitute Sprewell for Danny Devito and he'd argue that Devito would be the better ball player. I'm pretty sure he once suggested that Melo was better suited to be a bench player.

Dude, Devito had heart don't discount.

I am enjoying the squirming. I think I may have set off a 5 alarm watching all the scrambling.

I suppose you can say that I sold him short, lol.

MaTT4281 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

mreinman wrote:I don't believe that dk would say otherwise. I hope that I am not wrong.

Timeout. Is this actually being discussed in another thread? What's the title?

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=47101&page=19

Dude, just don't bother. You could substitute Sprewell for Danny Devito and he'd argue that Devito would be the better ball player. I'm pretty sure he once suggested that Melo was better suited to be a bench player.

Dude, Devito had heart don't discount.

I am enjoying the squirming. I think I may have set off a 5 alarm watching all the scrambling.

Devito did assemble a pretty good team in Space Jam.

Well then I wouldn't want to beLITTLE the man, lol.

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Sprewell and Melo are actually perfect compliments to each other. I wish they were able to play together.

Seriously?

Absolutely, Spree's defense and play making is just what Melo needs as a co-wing man. Melo's bully ball, rebounding, and 3pt stroke is just what Spree needs as a co-wing man.

+1

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Sprewell and Melo are actually perfect compliments to each other. I wish they were able to play together.

We might have something close to that in Shumpert if we are patient and help him excel in his role

Shumpert has always been extremely and consistently inefficient so they are very similar. At least Shumpert is smart enough not to shoot 16 shots a game. Wouldn't that suck?

Maybe the emotion of the argument you had with TKF is getting the better of you because you are being overly critical of Spree. He guarded the opponents best perimeter players on a nightly bases. And pretty much acted as the play making PG for the team on offense due to the lack of play making capabilities from our other guards.

Spree cooked up Jamal Mashburn so badly in our playoff run vs the Heat they traded him for Eddie Jones.

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Sprewell and Melo are actually perfect compliments to each other. I wish they were able to play together.

We might have something close to that in Shumpert if we are patient and help him excel in his role

Shumpert has always been extremely and consistently inefficient so they are very similar. At least Shumpert is smart enough not to shoot 16 shots a game. Wouldn't that suck?

Maybe the emotion of the argument you had with TKF is getting the better of you because you are being overly critical of Spree. He guarded the opponents best perimeter players on a nightly bases. And pretty much acted as the play making PG for the team on offense due to the lack of play making capabilities from our other guards.

Spree cooked up Jamal Mashburn so badly in our playoff run vs the Heat they traded him for Eddie Jones.

He was a tough defender but how come all advanced metrics paint him as a pretty awful offensive player. Do you not buy into advanced stats?

Melo needs to be surrounded with players who are more efficient than him not far less.

Advance stats are helpful but they aren't the final authority on a players impact on a team. There is no way you could have watched the Knicks during those yrs and not see the positive impact that Sprewell had on the team. So obviously the things he did positively far outweighed the negative. Defensively Spree and Camby covered so much ground and set the tone, Offensively Spree and LJ were the play makers from the perimeter and out of the paint.

His perimeter defense, play making, scoring, and fire, by an extremely large margin helped lead to a finals run in NY as well as a WCF run with the Wolves which didn't get out of the first rd the previous like 10 yrs with Garnett.

Bonn1997 wrote:Obviously Melo. I didn't think it was serious enough to merit a poll. I imagine the voting will be about 40 to 1

12-5.

Bonn, I guess you underestimated the emotional judgements of abused knick fans and anti Melo land.

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Sprewell and Melo are actually perfect compliments to each other. I wish they were able to play together.

We might have something close to that in Shumpert if we are patient and help him excel in his role

Shumpert has always been extremely and consistently inefficient so they are very similar. At least Shumpert is smart enough not to shoot 16 shots a game. Wouldn't that suck?

Maybe the emotion of the argument you had with TKF is getting the better of you because you are being overly critical of Spree. He guarded the opponents best perimeter players on a nightly bases. And pretty much acted as the play making PG for the team on offense due to the lack of play making capabilities from our other guards.

Spree cooked up Jamal Mashburn so badly in our playoff run vs the Heat they traded him for Eddie Jones.

He was a tough defender but how come all advanced metrics paint him as a pretty awful offensive player. Do you not buy into advanced stats?

Melo needs to be surrounded with players who are more efficient than him not far less.

Advance stats are helpful but they aren't the final authority on a players impact on a team. There is no way you could have watched the Knicks during those yrs and not see the positive impact that Sprewell had on the team. So obviously the things he did positively far outweighed the negative. Defensively Spree and Camby covered so much ground and set the tone, Offensively Spree and LJ were the play makers from the perimeter and out of the paint.

His perimeter defense, play making, scoring, and fire, by an extremely large margin helped lead to a finals run in NY as well as a WCF run with the Wolves which didn't get out of the first rd the previous like 10 yrs with Garnett.

I have missed very few games since 1985. I loved Camby and LJ. I liked Sprewell too but I believed that I overrated him just like everyone else. Advanced stats are not the end all but it certainly is stronger then our underdeveloped judgement.

Spree did play better for Minny in the playoffs than he did for us.

Whats interesting is if you look at advanced stats of the greats of today, they seem spot on, so what changed? What changed is how we rate (not overrate players).

The excuse or comment of "you don't watch games" is getting old. I happen to watch every game but that is becoming less relevant. However, after studying and following advanced stats, I am seeing and understanding the game and player value far more.

We were a 500. team with Ward/Eisley, Houston/Anderson, Spree, Othela Harrington/Clearence Weatherspoon, Kurt Thomas. So if Spree was a 0 sum player or negative sum player then who were the + sum players that made that team a 500. team?

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Sprewell and Melo are actually perfect compliments to each other. I wish they were able to play together.

We might have something close to that in Shumpert if we are patient and help him excel in his role

Shumpert has always been extremely and consistently inefficient so they are very similar. At least Shumpert is smart enough not to shoot 16 shots a game. Wouldn't that suck?

Maybe the emotion of the argument you had with TKF is getting the better of you because you are being overly critical of Spree. He guarded the opponents best perimeter players on a nightly bases. And pretty much acted as the play making PG for the team on offense due to the lack of play making capabilities from our other guards.

Spree cooked up Jamal Mashburn so badly in our playoff run vs the Heat they traded him for Eddie Jones.

He was a tough defender but how come all advanced metrics paint him as a pretty awful offensive player. Do you not buy into advanced stats?

Melo needs to be surrounded with players who are more efficient than him not far less.

Advance stats are helpful but they aren't the final authority on a players impact on a team. There is no way you could have watched the Knicks during those yrs and not see the positive impact that Sprewell had on the team. So obviously the things he did positively far outweighed the negative. Defensively Spree and Camby covered so much ground and set the tone, Offensively Spree and LJ were the play makers from the perimeter and out of the paint.

His perimeter defense, play making, scoring, and fire, by an extremely large margin helped lead to a finals run in NY as well as a WCF run with the Wolves which didn't get out of the first rd the previous like 10 yrs with Garnett.

I have missed very few games since 1985. I loved Camby and LJ. I liked Sprewell too but I believed that I overrated him just like everyone else. Advanced stats are not the end all but it certainly is stronger then our underdeveloped judgement.

Spree did play better for Minny in the playoffs than he did for us.

Whats interesting is if you look at advanced stats of the greats of today, they seem spot on, so what changed? What changed is how we rate (not overrate players).

The excuse or comment of "you don't watch games" is getting old. I happen to watch every game but that is becoming less relevant. However, after studying and following advanced stats, I am seeing and understanding the game and player value far more.

We were a 500. team with Ward/Eisley, Houston/Anderson, Spree, Othela Harrington/Clearence Weatherspoon, Kurt Thomas. So if Spree was a 0 sum player or negative sum player then who were the + sum players that made that team a 500. team?

I don't know think he was negative sum. I just think he was very inefficient offensively. we were 37-45.

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Sprewell and Melo are actually perfect compliments to each other. I wish they were able to play together.

We might have something close to that in Shumpert if we are patient and help him excel in his role

Shumpert has always been extremely and consistently inefficient so they are very similar. At least Shumpert is smart enough not to shoot 16 shots a game. Wouldn't that suck?

Maybe the emotion of the argument you had with TKF is getting the better of you because you are being overly critical of Spree. He guarded the opponents best perimeter players on a nightly bases. And pretty much acted as the play making PG for the team on offense due to the lack of play making capabilities from our other guards.

Spree cooked up Jamal Mashburn so badly in our playoff run vs the Heat they traded him for Eddie Jones.

He was a tough defender but how come all advanced metrics paint him as a pretty awful offensive player. Do you not buy into advanced stats?

Melo needs to be surrounded with players who are more efficient than him not far less.

Advance stats are helpful but they aren't the final authority on a players impact on a team. There is no way you could have watched the Knicks during those yrs and not see the positive impact that Sprewell had on the team. So obviously the things he did positively far outweighed the negative. Defensively Spree and Camby covered so much ground and set the tone, Offensively Spree and LJ were the play makers from the perimeter and out of the paint.

His perimeter defense, play making, scoring, and fire, by an extremely large margin helped lead to a finals run in NY as well as a WCF run with the Wolves which didn't get out of the first rd the previous like 10 yrs with Garnett.

I have missed very few games since 1985. I loved Camby and LJ. I liked Sprewell too but I believed that I overrated him just like everyone else. Advanced stats are not the end all but it certainly is stronger then our underdeveloped judgement.

Spree did play better for Minny in the playoffs than he did for us.

Whats interesting is if you look at advanced stats of the greats of today, they seem spot on, so what changed? What changed is how we rate (not overrate players).

The excuse or comment of "you don't watch games" is getting old. I happen to watch every game but that is becoming less relevant. However, after studying and following advanced stats, I am seeing and understanding the game and player value far more.

We were a 500. team with Ward/Eisley, Houston/Anderson, Spree, Othela Harrington/Clearence Weatherspoon, Kurt Thomas. So if Spree was a 0 sum player or negative sum player then who were the + sum players that made that team a 500. team?

I don't know think he was negative sum. I just think he was very inefficient offensively. 500 is no great shakes.

When Othela Harrington and Kurt Thomas is your front court with Ward(good guy solid player) & Eisley as your PG tandem then 500. is amazing.

I think it was 37-45 - they were 6th in the atlantic.

Houston and Kurt Thomas were pretty decent that year. Sprewell was not.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/2003.html

http://nykmistakes.blogspot.com/2010/11/how-good-were-houston-and-sprewell.html

How good were Houston and Sprewell?
These two were considered the catalysts for the Knicks in their late 90s run. Yet these two were still on the team during the beginning of the demise in the early 2000s. The Wins Produced numbers only go back to 2001 as of now, but lets look at these two and see what they were able to accomplish. Reminder: Average WP48 is .100

2001:
Allan Houston
.075 WP48
4.5 Wins Produced
2858 Minutes

Latrell Sprewell
.064 WP48
4.0 Wins Produced
3017 Minutes

Houston and Sprewell (8.5 Wins) Rest of Team (39 Wins)

In 2001 Sprewell and Houston were both below avergae performers but were able to contribute 8.5 wins because of the large number of minutes that they played. This story follows a similar pattern.

2002:
Allan Houston
.011 WP48
.7 Wins Produced
2914 Minutes

Latrell Sprewell
-.012 WP48
-.8 Wins Produced
3326 Minutes

Houston and Sprewell (-.1 Wins) Rest of Team (30.4 Wins)

In 2002 the all-star combo produced -.1 Wins. Yes, they actually were a negative on the Knicks season. It should be noted that the rest of the team performed remarkably similar to the previous year. The only difference being Marcus Camby only produced 4.4 Wins as opposed to the 16.9 that he did in 2001, he only played in 29 games in 2002.

2003:
Allan Houston
.042 WP48
2.7 Wins Produced
3108 Minutes

Latrell Sprewell
.052 WP48
3.1 Wins Produced
2859 Minutes

Houston and Sprewell (4.8 Wins Produced) Rest of Team (31.3 Wins Produced)

Again the team performed fairly similar to the way they had performed in the past, except this year Marcus Camby was no longer with the team and the subsequent performace dropped. This is a continual pattern of the Knicks having a fairly decent team around the alleged two superstarts, if these two were actual superstars, then the Knicks would have been a juggernaut. Unfortunately, these two were not very good players.

The reason that the there is a difference in perception and reality regarding these two is that both of them could score the ball. Unfortunately, that is all they could do as neither of them were very good rebounders, they both turned the ball over and neither created a lot of turnover via steals. However, since player performace is driven by points per game and nothing else, these two were thought of as great players. The numbers tell a different story and offer an explanation as to why the Knicks could never get over the hump, the team around Sprewell and Houston was a pretty decent one. Unfortunately the big two were not very big at all.

Although Maybe if Melo just scowled more, my perception would be different. Kinda like pulling a Costanza.