dk7th wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Yes, Melo the unidimensional player who
lead the team in rebounding for most of the season
leads the team in steals.
Averages 4-5 assists per game from the 4 spot.
Holds meaningless franchise moments like:
> Leading scorer (except for some people, the game is still about buckets)
> Making the playoffs every year since being here, despite playing with mostly hobbled dregs and one blown up starphuch. Oh yes, that's his fault that he's not instead playing with hobbled Gallo and Moz and the Mayor instead. With a combination of great draft picks pulled out of the great Knicks management azz draft history that we read about ad nauseum in here.
> getting out of the first round for the first time in 15 years.
> Division champs
> 50 wins

What's obviously really meaningful to some in here: 29-win seasons, cap space playing with yourself and drafting the Fred Weis' of the world.

As long as none of it includes that dog-killing Melo.

Unreal.

it's funny you and others say he has garbage to play with in NY and then use stats of him leading the team to support your argument of how good he is.. lol.. trash leading trash isn't much to celebrate....

how about these stats:

41% career playoff shooter..
worst playoff record among active players
The dregs you mention? he is actually one of them come playoff time
getting out of the first round for the first time in 15 years? rofl.. so is that a product of carmelo being great or the knicks just being bad the past years? haha

now why not mention how many wins we have this year? how many games under .500 we have been?

i will wait.......

tfk--melo is a top 10 NBA player--not easy to replace and can score 30 every night with an efg over 50%. Both Melo and Dolan were stupid getting him here--if both waited 3 months--our position wouldve been 10 times better. But you look at the position we are in now--were better with melo than without him. Im scared he would walk still scared but with Phil I feel we have a much better chance of doing things the right way. But a key to the strategy is keeping melo.

is the goal to win a championship or just be happy we make it to the final four? because that is the cieling for a team with melo as a second option or a first option.

your scenario is like expecting to win it all with mark aguirre.

I thought the goal was to get to the playoffs and hope for the best? Did 1999 teach you nothing about the Knicks? And your scenario is to become like Philly and mind phuck your way through Dolan leaving and the draft and cap space to the next Lebron Superfriends/KD-Westbrook combo. Good luck with that happening here.

As long as you continue to believe that Melo = Starbles-lite, than there's nothing to talk about, right?
Actually that would be ranking Melo kind of too high in your world, right?

jrodmc wrote:

dk7th wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Yes, Melo the unidimensional player who
lead the team in rebounding for most of the season
leads the team in steals.
Averages 4-5 assists per game from the 4 spot.
Holds meaningless franchise moments like:
> Leading scorer (except for some people, the game is still about buckets)
> Making the playoffs every year since being here, despite playing with mostly hobbled dregs and one blown up starphuch. Oh yes, that's his fault that he's not instead playing with hobbled Gallo and Moz and the Mayor instead. With a combination of great draft picks pulled out of the great Knicks management azz draft history that we read about ad nauseum in here.
> getting out of the first round for the first time in 15 years.
> Division champs
> 50 wins

What's obviously really meaningful to some in here: 29-win seasons, cap space playing with yourself and drafting the Fred Weis' of the world.

As long as none of it includes that dog-killing Melo.

Unreal.

it's funny you and others say he has garbage to play with in NY and then use stats of him leading the team to support your argument of how good he is.. lol.. trash leading trash isn't much to celebrate....

how about these stats:

41% career playoff shooter..
worst playoff record among active players
The dregs you mention? he is actually one of them come playoff time
getting out of the first round for the first time in 15 years? rofl.. so is that a product of carmelo being great or the knicks just being bad the past years? haha

now why not mention how many wins we have this year? how many games under .500 we have been?

i will wait.......

tfk--melo is a top 10 NBA player--not easy to replace and can score 30 every night with an efg over 50%. Both Melo and Dolan were stupid getting him here--if both waited 3 months--our position wouldve been 10 times better. But you look at the position we are in now--were better with melo than without him. Im scared he would walk still scared but with Phil I feel we have a much better chance of doing things the right way. But a key to the strategy is keeping melo.

is the goal to win a championship or just be happy we make it to the final four? because that is the cieling for a team with melo as a second option or a first option.

your scenario is like expecting to win it all with mark aguirre.

I thought the goal was to get to the playoffs and hope for the best? Did 1999 teach you nothing about the Knicks? And your scenario is to become like Philly and mind phuck your way through Dolan leaving and the draft and cap space to the next Lebron Superfriends/KD-Westbrook combo. Good luck with that happening here.

As long as you continue to believe that Melo = Starbles-lite, than there's nothing to talk about, right?
Actually that would be ranking Melo kind of too high in your world, right?

it all depends on how carmelo anthony regards himself, the value he thinks he provides to a team. so far he has grossly overestimated himself. marbury did so throughout his career and it did not end well for him as a result. it is not too late for melo to wake up and realize his place in the order of things, in which case he will prove to be the more valuable and better player than dinglebury.

and the goal is to get to the playoffs but with a healthy team with a strong locker room. melo destroyed that before the season started-- "i want to test free agency"-- and now it is likely to have blown up in his face, which will make for fantastic entertainment value. there's a good possibility that the wordS "DISGRUNTLED" and "MELO" will get to know each other quite intimately over the next number of weeks.

my scenario? it's to get dolan completely out of the way and simply write checks. if he won't allow a mount rushmore coach to do that after crapping on donnie walsh then the knicks are doomed.

NYKBocker wrote:I don't really see Melo as a triangle type player. You need a willing passer and an ability to play well away from the ball. Both attributes that Melo does not possess. Big Chief Triangle needs to trade Melo for assets in the offseason assuming Melo does not opt out. If Melo stays then PJax needs to find the right system to build around Melo. This means a PG that can create. A SG that can hit the open 3. Another forward that is long that can switch with Melo between the 3 and 4. A stretch 5 that can rebound.

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

tkf wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:You do realize that Camby and Kenyon were often injured

kenyon moreso than camby, marcus played 29,29,72,66,56,70,79 from 2002-2006, he was relatively healthy bro.. sorry, and he had guys like iverson and billups on that team.. carmelo had a team that suffered no more injuries than most other guys have to deal with in the NBA.. another excuse for this dude... lets address the things that we know he can help... .like his play.. why so poor in the playoffs?

Iverson? How many tools did Iverson bring to the table, Mr. I talk Basketball With No Hidden Agenda Only?

Billups on his way to the HOF?

What the fuhuck are you talking about?

Iverson was a better player than carmelo.. end of story.. he is a hall of famer for sure..

Billups is a champion a finals MVP and in most cases a fringe hall of fame player.. thats debatable and if it is, then it just supports the argument that carmelo had guys to play with... the fact is that he is a playoff bust, his 41% shooting, lack of assist and no defense stops himself from winning..

Iverson? 21.8 shots a game with a TS of .518.

Efficient?

Bad attitude, lazy on defense (aside from his dumb gambles on steals which Clyde said really hurt his play), the ultimate chucker ...

This is the guy you bring up as your argument?

you have a habbit of putting words in my mouth, who said efficient.. Iverson is regarded as one of the best players of all time.. right? well he played with carmelo, so that would dispell the notion that he had no one to play with... why do you have such a hard time sticking to the argument.. what in the hell is your point anyway?

This is the guy you bring up as your argument?

he is a better player than carmelo... first of all.. next unless you are saying iverson isn't or wasn't a great player or even good player then my point stands.. carmelo had talent to play with..

jrodmc wrote:

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Yes, Melo the unidimensional player who
lead the team in rebounding for most of the season
leads the team in steals.
Averages 4-5 assists per game from the 4 spot.
Holds meaningless franchise moments like:
> Leading scorer (except for some people, the game is still about buckets)
> Making the playoffs every year since being here, despite playing with mostly hobbled dregs and one blown up starphuch. Oh yes, that's his fault that he's not instead playing with hobbled Gallo and Moz and the Mayor instead. With a combination of great draft picks pulled out of the great Knicks management azz draft history that we read about ad nauseum in here.
> getting out of the first round for the first time in 15 years.
> Division champs
> 50 wins

What's obviously really meaningful to some in here: 29-win seasons, cap space playing with yourself and drafting the Fred Weis' of the world.

As long as none of it includes that dog-killing Melo.

Unreal.

it's funny you and others say he has garbage to play with in NY and then use stats of him leading the team to support your argument of how good he is.. lol.. trash leading trash isn't much to celebrate....

so you don't address the trash he's played with here (because you can't)
And your blind hate just dismisses everything that's been accomplished because? Nothing. you say nothing. Again.

tkf wrote:
how about these stats:

41% career playoff shooter..
worst playoff record among active players
The dregs you mention? he is actually one of them come playoff time
getting out of the first round for the first time in 15 years? rofl.. so is that a product of carmelo being great or the knicks just being bad the past years? haha

now why not mention how many wins we have this year? how many games under .500 we have been?

i will wait.......

yes, tell me again how important the regular season is this year, when it meant sheehit last year.
go ahead. Use that incredible basketball intellect to explain that.

And how do you explain getting out of the first round? It was JKidd right? Go ahead, make an azz of yourself explaining how anyone but Melo is responsible for any success the franchise has had since he's been here. Exalt Camby, exalt Rasheed. Exalt Ray Felton. Keep going, you're truly and asset to this site.

And when you get done doing that, you can tell me how great it was during those 15 years of waste in comparison to what we've dealt with since the Melo era began.

Don't forget to add some stats about melo's inability to make anyone better.

carmelo is part of the trash.. he doesn't defend, doesn't pass and doesn't lead and for a guy making 20 mil a year, that is failure..

while here he has had a DPOY and a 6th man on this team.. if you call that trash, I don't know what to tell you... a lot of other teams didn't have that..

tkf wrote:

mreinman wrote:

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

tkf wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:You do realize that Camby and Kenyon were often injured

kenyon moreso than camby, marcus played 29,29,72,66,56,70,79 from 2002-2006, he was relatively healthy bro.. sorry, and he had guys like iverson and billups on that team.. carmelo had a team that suffered no more injuries than most other guys have to deal with in the NBA.. another excuse for this dude... lets address the things that we know he can help... .like his play.. why so poor in the playoffs?

Iverson? How many tools did Iverson bring to the table, Mr. I talk Basketball With No Hidden Agenda Only?

Billups on his way to the HOF?

What the fuhuck are you talking about?

Iverson was a better player than carmelo.. end of story.. he is a hall of famer for sure..

Billups is a champion a finals MVP and in most cases a fringe hall of fame player.. thats debatable and if it is, then it just supports the argument that carmelo had guys to play with... the fact is that he is a playoff bust, his 41% shooting, lack of assist and no defense stops himself from winning..

Iverson? 21.8 shots a game with a TS of .518.

Efficient?

Bad attitude, lazy on defense (aside from his dumb gambles on steals which Clyde said really hurt his play), the ultimate chucker ...

This is the guy you bring up as your argument?

you have a habbit of putting words in my mouth, who said efficient.. Iverson is regarded as one of the best players of all time.. right? well he played with carmelo, so that would dispell the notion that he had no one to play with... why do you have such a hard time sticking to the argument.. what in the hell is your point anyway?

This is the guy you bring up as your argument?

he is a better player than carmelo... first of all.. next unless you are saying iverson isn't or wasn't a great player or even good player then my point stands.. carmelo had talent to play with..

words in your mouth? get over yourself. Why the animosity? Not capable of clean dialogue/debate?

I don't think that Iverson is regarded as one of the best players of all time. Not even close.

He was a horrible inefficient chucker that made Kobe look tame. Far from great - good player with too much bad. Maybe out on my own with this but that is what I believe. I think Kobe is way overrated too btw.

When do we care about efficiency and when do we choose to ignore it? At least DK and Bonn are consistent.

I do believe that Melo is flawed and should be more efficient and that is holding him back.

Question: if Iverson and Melo were both going into a draft (as we know/knew them), who gets drafted first (by GM's not us)?

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Yes, Melo the unidimensional player who
lead the team in rebounding for most of the season
leads the team in steals.
Averages 4-5 assists per game from the 4 spot.
Holds meaningless franchise moments like:
> Leading scorer (except for some people, the game is still about buckets)
> Making the playoffs every year since being here, despite playing with mostly hobbled dregs and one blown up starphuch. Oh yes, that's his fault that he's not instead playing with hobbled Gallo and Moz and the Mayor instead. With a combination of great draft picks pulled out of the great Knicks management azz draft history that we read about ad nauseum in here.
> getting out of the first round for the first time in 15 years.
> Division champs
> 50 wins

What's obviously really meaningful to some in here: 29-win seasons, cap space playing with yourself and drafting the Fred Weis' of the world.

As long as none of it includes that dog-killing Melo.

Unreal.

it's funny you and others say he has garbage to play with in NY and then use stats of him leading the team to support your argument of how good he is.. lol.. trash leading trash isn't much to celebrate....

so you don't address the trash he's played with here (because you can't)
And your blind hate just dismisses everything that's been accomplished because? Nothing. you say nothing. Again.

tkf wrote:
how about these stats:

41% career playoff shooter..
worst playoff record among active players
The dregs you mention? he is actually one of them come playoff time
getting out of the first round for the first time in 15 years? rofl.. so is that a product of carmelo being great or the knicks just being bad the past years? haha

now why not mention how many wins we have this year? how many games under .500 we have been?

i will wait.......

yes, tell me again how important the regular season is this year, when it meant sheehit last year.
go ahead. Use that incredible basketball intellect to explain that.

And how do you explain getting out of the first round? It was JKidd right? Go ahead, make an azz of yourself explaining how anyone but Melo is responsible for any success the franchise has had since he's been here. Exalt Camby, exalt Rasheed. Exalt Ray Felton. Keep going, you're truly and asset to this site.

And when you get done doing that, you can tell me how great it was during those 15 years of waste in comparison to what we've dealt with since the Melo era began.

Don't forget to add some stats about melo's inability to make anyone better.

J-rod the goal is to win a championship.. in order to do that you have to win playoff games.. carmelo sucks in that area as he does in the playoffs.. he is a playoff loser.. Yet you continue to defend him using the 1, 54 win season we had.. while ignoring the mess of a season we have now.. but of course as usual, that is someone else fault.. line em up.. amare, chandler, bargnani, woodson, felton........

tkf, i defend Melo on the basis of the results we've had since he's been here. You cannot help yourself but discount any improvements over the pre-Melo era, because it didn't result in an immediate chip. How many years did Lebron play in Cleveland? How many times has OKC been to the Finals?

I know, I know, you will now say the goal is to make it to conf finals, or the Finals. <--- Here copy and paste this and save time. Or just type something basketball brilliant, like "melo isn't in the same universe with those two"... tell us how much greater LeQ makes Chris Bosh and KD makes Westbrook...

1) Ummm, if Iverson is considered one of the best players ever in your opinion, is Melo? If not, why, since he's just another uni-dimensional scorer?
2) You continue to ignore any success because you have to in order to justify your Melo hate.
3) You still have yet to address how this regular season that sux counts, but last regular season that didn't suck didn't? What's the matter, no pithy stats you can show for that one, or are you just going to keep typing "the mess of a season we have now" and hope nobody notices?

tkf wrote:

grillco wrote:

mreinman wrote:http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/bondy-jackson-anthony-melo-article-1.1720052

Bondy has a different take. I think I may have to agree with him.

I didn't jibe with Bondy's perspective. I have issues with the concept of whether any player makes his teammates better. It's a nice notion, but Jordan's teammates weren't "better" until they got better players. Pippen, Grant, and the like were great players and they and the coaches took advantage of the opposition's focus on trying to contain MJ. Similar with the Lakers, Shaq couldn't do it himself and arguably never made anyone better directly, but the emergence of Kobe as a bonafide player. Like the Bulls, they had or acquired the perfect complimentary players. These teams were also pretty consistent as far as line ups went and had gelled...that hasn't happened in NY for over a decade.

Neither Denver nor the Knicks have done this for Melo. He's been playing with the aged and injured most of his career. Nene was pretty much his best and most consistent teammate. As it has been with his career to date, he's still getting his shots even when well covered and his teammates and coaches are highly inconsistent in their ability take advantage of doubles or pick up any slack when he's having a bad night.

This is not being blinded by any perceived love for Melo, it's just an objective observation. Now if you bring a second fiddle and that solid mix of cagey vets and enthusiastic youth and they can all maintain their health while keeping Melo the primary offensive focus and they still can't do significantly better than they have during his tenure...well, then there'd be a valid argument about how he is as a teammate.

This is similar to what happened with Ewing in NY. They took too long to put a killer team around him. By the time they did the Bulls had fully formed into their monstrous selves...then there was the playoff fight with the Heat in what looked like their year, Ewing's wrist explodes, Spree comes to town and lights a fire, but disrupts things a ton and they've been mired in mediocrity ever since.

I don't care who the "star" is. This is team sport and no one guy makes it happen. LeBron couldn't do it in Cleveland and we all agree that he's better than Melo. We might even agree that his team in Cleveland was better than the Knicks since before Melo came to NY...hell, we'd have to since they went to the finals! So if Melo goes, as long as they replace him and build a great around whoever that player may be, I'll be happy if they find a way to win and be really competitive.

camby, kenyon, iverson, billups, were not aged and injured.. one was DPOY, the other two guards are HOF guards.. Iverson was still in his prime years when he played with carmelo.. In NY carmelo had JR a 6th man of the year and DPOY on the same team.. lets stop acting like he had no one to play with.. take a look at carmelo's playoff numbers.. the 41% shooting, the lack of assists and defense.. and you will see he is as big a culprit to his lack of success as anyone else...

As far as Ewing goes.. Please, Ewing was a Beast.. and the knicks tried to put teams around Ewing, but in the end, Ewing had teams like the pacers, detroit, miami as well as the bulls... the east was stacked with good teams, teams that were equally as good as the knicks, and throw in teams like the cavs and charlotte and you had a tough road.. ewing was in two finals, one in which he was hurt(spurs) He had chances, his best chance vs the rockets, but he went up against Hakeem.. sometimes great players fall short, or lose to other great players.... but the key is, Ewing played very well, just got beat...

Actually, Camby only just found a groove of staying healthy, but ws never beast he showed glimpses of in NY, Martin's knees blew out, Iverson was done, and Billups was on his career wind down. More to the point, however, they were the Horace Grants and Rodmans, none of them were Pippens to Melo Jordan (not that he's on that level).

Also, you've got to look back, until Houston and Johnson were brought in, at Pat's request they wasted a lot of years surrounding him with under-talented and over-the-hill players. Oak was his only long term Rock. And as much as I love LJ he was no longer the superstar by the time he got to NY. We're seeing history differently and I'll bet we both aren't going to be swayed. Had the fight not caused new rules in the middle of freakin' playoffs and Ewing not blown out his wrist they might have a had a ring or two despite the Pacers, Heat, and the almighty Bulls. They had a bit of bad luck and some crappy decision making at the league offices. The Knicks were arguably the second best team in the NBA with Oak, Allan, and LJ supporting Pat, but Melo hasn't had that type of team or any consistency. This will lead a player to rely mostly on oneself. Want to remedy that, give the guy a team that can hang with and help him...consistently.

It's all goo though. I'm fully down on Phil, but he will certainly cause a change if he's allowed. Hopefully it works out for the team and the fans. This fan hopes it does.

franco12 wrote:I think bringing Phil in confirms that we will retain MELO at any price, and will happily bid against ourselves.

Melo has won me over with his play of late. But I agree he might bear a lot of responsibility with the 'I will test FA' remark at the beginning of the year. And retaining him does nothing to set us up for a championship run. Maybe we're lucky (with what assets) and can retool in the off season. Bt we're talking about getting this team back to respectibility - 40 wins, give or take.

We will see with Phil. If Melo goes we know. If he stays its because Phil Jackson wants him here, which should say something.

gunsnewing wrote:Good point. I trust Phil on Melo

I tend to think the weak part of Melo's game is between the ears. If Phil can Jedi mind trick him, then we might have something.

For as good as LeBron is- the fact is the Heat have lost a bunch of games that MJ in his prime doesn't. He just doesn't have that killer in him like MJ did.