franco12 wrote:Objectively- Melo is a really good player. Is he good enough to build around. Absolutely!

However, not at his current age!

Denver already tried this- and they wisely moved on.

At his current age, and minutes already player & at his likely salary, it is foolish to try to build around Melo.

Unless of course Lebron comes here- but then you wouldn't be building around Melo.

Between his cap it, and the lack of draft picks available here in the short term, there is just no way to add the kind of talent that any player (perhaps short of a Lebron/Duncan/MJ type player) needs.

The only chance we have to build around Melo is to absolutely tank next season when we own our own pick and land the top pick and score a franchise type talent.

But that will be luck, and NOT building around Melo.

Does anyone really think Melo will be able to sustain his performance for the next 3 years, beyond this season?

Be honest with yourselves. Melo already has played a ton of minutes - hard minutes. He's not cut like Lebron. Maybe his dough-boy body type will hold up.

Maybe.

But be honest and objective.

I hope Steve Mills is and will be.

Vmart wrote:To build around Melo you need a point guard who will be the alpha player. Chris Paul type PG a HOF type pg. Why is it that Melo is most successful when he has a top tier pg leading the way. Kidd, Billups type PG.

To build around Melo start with a PG. I feel Rondo would be a ideal type of PG Rubio and Dragic is another. Lin well you guys know.

I agree, if you can get a PG as great as CP3, we wouldn't need 2 PG's and need to see Melo play point/forward nearly as much, also we could pick DEF and size, shooting, and other factors with a PG of that caliber, he is also a VERY good defender despite his size

I would like to add, like the team in Team USA, you need both very skilled/versatile/athletic with size/length on both DEF and OFF, SG/SF's,

SG and SF/PF with players that are very versatile on both DEFENSE (ability to defend 3, maybe 4 positions, and great rebounders) and versatile/skilled on OFF (ability to play inside and out)

SF
players in the mold of Battum, Chandler Parsons, Wilson Chandler, Jeff Green, Deng?, (young Marion would be ideal), also for the BENCH, a younger comparable talents like of Shane Battier/Dunleavy/Mike Miller/Rashard Lewis, Delfino or Danny Green or the SF's on Houston at the vet min type player once we have established the talents to build a CORE around,

SG
Lance Stephenson, Iggy, Turner??, Rudy Gay (if price is right in 2015)?, Trevor Ariza???, Ilysaova??? a younger Tony Allen or Sefelosha, or maybe even some players above like Chandler/Battum
Klay Thompson??? (not sure would his value would be when he is eligible for an extension)

If we had a PG of CP3's caliber, I believe Iman would also be a much better player, he currently is the only one that consistently tries to push the ball for easier baskets (although his handle needs work)

Also, he is getting use to play the SF and not use to defending PG/SG's losing the speed/quickness from the knee procedures vs his 1st year where he did much of defending the PG(usually late game situations) and SG
You need more speed and quickness to be able to defend both the PG/SG while he needs more strength to make up for his lack of size to defend the SF and SF/PF's like Lebron's, Durant/Paul George etc...

But he simply isn't playing the same role or is he in the same shape as he was in year 1, we need to push the ball more and the current players are't doing it, settling for slowly bringing up the ball vs set DEFENSES

CrushAlot wrote:Shawne is an interesting option. I know the lakers cut him before his deal became guaranteed. Was he hurt there or just not getting minutes? If the Knicks are going back to going small Shawne could fill a Cope role if the Knicks picked him up.

The Knicks front office is asleep at the wheel..Barbosa was out there playing in Brazil before he signed with the Suns..We couldn't use him??

yellowboy90 wrote:

holfresh wrote:I think a team consisting of KLove, Lowry and Melo can beat anyone in the East, how do we get there??

If Teams are really interested in Chandler then their is a way to get Lowry if TO is interested?

If we can turn Chandler in to some of the players above or Lowry and 1 other player, I think it would be a step in the right direction (not the vet min talents, though I till want them but would much rather SIGN them in addition to the more talents needed)
If we can also get a pick or 2 (2nd rounders) it could make sense, add up salary wise, and help towards our rebuilding process
With a multi team trade, I could see a trade that could somehow work and make sense...

Chandler is overpaid but is actually still a useful player on a contender, he just isn't a good fit for us currently because we are not contenders, we don't have enough talented defensive players that fit Tyson's skills and play DEF with him, we are missing talents on OFF to make up for his lack of skills, and have too many player playing out of position or unable to defend their own position 1v1 at least with the rotations that Woodson constantly uses

AB(at C) and Kmart/STAT at PF's has been a big part of our past winning streak and because of their abilities to spread the floor and their mobility, we have been able to execute a different philosophy that works for Melo and the rest of the team vs with Chandler who is much slower/not nearly as mobile, lacking on OFFENSE, and simply not the same player he was the first 2 years he was here earlier as he will continue to get older and only slower with less athletic ability with age/injuries

There are not many players that can lead a franchise by himself, I don't believe Melo is one of them (not at his next contract and age), but building around a CORE of 3 players with some additional fill ins that are greater than the vet min production though even vet min players/cheap young players that have the ability to improve, are VERY IMPORTANT with this CBA
on how to build a team to become a contender

For example,
Lance Stephenson and Terrence Jones were once 10-15th men on the roster but BOTH have grown and improved and now play a big part to their teams success
and
that is why having a quality development squad with the right combination of veterans and players with great work ethic/IQ/willingness to improve and help develop play a crucial role
David West/George Hill has played a large part in the development of Roy Hibbert, Paul George, and Lance Stephenson
Now all those younger guys above had a multiple effect to the development and hunger in each year, along with the vision of management, Head Coach Vogul, and Brian Shaw

It is a process that requires patience, time, growth, and development
Going to the conference finals and losing to the HEAT east year, made them hungrier and provided CONFIDENCE along with Experience
"Buying" talent can only get us so far, we need to be able to continue to development of our own (doesn't have to be draft picks, could be younger players that teams gave up on for salary or roster spot reasons...

RonRon wrote:

holfresh wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

holfresh wrote:I think a team consisting of KLove, Lowry and Melo can beat anyone in the East, how ydo we get there??

If Teams are really interested in Chandler then their is a way to get Lowry if TO is interested?

This scenario is plausible, pay Lowry 10 mil per, which is less than Chandler is making, Melo can get his money maybe 23/25 mil per...2015 slide KLove into Amare's slot at 20 mil per...Develop Shump, TimJr, and Tyler and see what we have...Have Melo make a full court press on KLove...

salary cap doesn't work that way unless you can TRADE them, unfortunately STAT would require many talents, assets, and many 1st round picks, for anyone of Kevin Love's caliber
And that is why if Melo opts out this summer vs letting his contract expire and then resigning in 2015 is needed for the better of the Knicks

The salary cap is about 60m, with cap holds etc, you cannot substitute a contract for contract unless you are WAY under the salary cap, which we would not be if Melo opts out, with the salaries of Felton, JR Smith, Iman, Pablo, Tim Hardway, 2015 1st rounder, any contracts we look to upgrade between now and 2016.... etc

Telling Kevin Love to come for 10m just isn't happening

but

keeping Melo and Love at about 15m per year is POSSIBLE...

Also Lowry at 10m per year, I would rather take the next available player, we cannot afford to spend that much on a PG of that caliber, Dragic is making 7.5m and has an opt out for 2015

I'm not a cap guru but right now the Knicks have 12.6 mil scheduled for 2015 on the books..Melo and Lowry could add another 30 mil if structured properly...U are telling me we can't add KLove as a free agent at say 18 mil in the first year after that??

holfresh wrote:

RonRon wrote:

holfresh wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

holfresh wrote:I think a team consisting of KLove, Lowry and Melo can beat anyone in the East, how ydo we get there??

If Teams are really interested in Chandler then their is a way to get Lowry if TO is interested?

This scenario is plausible, pay Lowry 10 mil per, which is less than Chandler is making, Melo can get his money maybe 23/25 mil per...2015 slide KLove into Amare's slot at 20 mil per...Develop Shump, TimJr, and Tyler and see what we have...Have Melo make a full court press on KLove...

salary cap doesn't work that way unless you can TRADE them, unfortunately STAT would require many talents, assets, and many 1st round picks, for anyone of Kevin Love's caliber
And that is why if Melo opts out this summer vs letting his contract expire and then resigning in 2015 is needed for the better of the Knicks

The salary cap is about 60m, with cap holds etc, you cannot substitute a contract for contract unless you are WAY under the salary cap, which we would not be if Melo opts out, with the salaries of Felton, JR Smith, Iman, Pablo, Tim Hardway, 2015 1st rounder, any contracts we look to upgrade between now and 2016.... etc

Telling Kevin Love to come for 10m just isn't happening

but

keeping Melo and Love at about 15m per year is POSSIBLE...

Also Lowry at 10m per year, I would rather take the next available player, we cannot afford to spend that much on a PG of that caliber, Dragic is making 7.5m and has an opt out for 2015

I'm not a cap guru but right now the Knicks have 12.6 mil scheduled for 2015 on the books..Melo and Lowry could add another 30 mil if structured properly...U are telling me we can't add KLove as a free agent at say 18 mil in the first year after that??

http://knickerblogger.net/knicks-morning-news-2014-01-18/#comment-459708

Love and Rondo will each have a max salary of approximately $17.5 million in the summer of 2015 (number is in flux, but this year it would be $16.4 million). If Melo took a five year deal this summer starting at $20 million, he could cut to $18.5 for 2015-16, go back to $20 million for 2016-17, $21.5 million for 2017-18 and $23 million for 2018-19. $103 million over five years. That is roughly $30 million less than his absolute max deal, which is what Ruru has been hinting at for the last year.

Love and Anthony have similar skill sets but they are complimentary. A PnR with Rondo/Love or Rondo/Melo sets up the other guy for open three point shots. The team would need a rim protecting five, a strong wing defender and a slashing wing. I think you could get those pieces with the salary cap and exceptions left over after spending ~ $53 million on the three biggest pieces.

All of this depends upon:

Now here is a scenario for Rondo but you get the ideal of how to get Lowry and Love. Lowery would have a lower max which would mean more cap room.

My plan would be trade Chandler to Portland for a Lopez, 2015 1st(unprotected), and scraps. I am not sure how they would work the next step or if they can, but I would go back to talk with Toronto before the Tyson trade and offer Shump/Metta/udrih/cole/ 2018 1st for Lowry(only if he is willing to ext). IT may have to be a 3 team deal to help take the junk players along with a future 2nd. Then after that deal is done I offer up Chandler to Portland. Lopez becomes a keep at his salary or another trade chip considering they could get him. If they don't give up Lopez Portland would have to take on Jr or else I talk to OKC about the Dallas 1st/Perkins(awful)/and Jones.

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=lsatfdo

Ny:
Lowry
Young
Lopez

TO:
Claver
Shump
Udrih

Phi:
Meyers
Metta
2015 1st (via portland for Tyson)

Port:

Tyson
Aldrich

Circulate some 2nd rounders around plus the 3 million NY still has and I think that is a decent trade. Lopez and Young are young and will still become good trade chips in 2015. I actually think this is a better trade than the one that was reported for Lowry because they won't have to take Felton'c contract.

holfresh wrote:

RonRon wrote:

holfresh wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

holfresh wrote:I think a team consisting of KLove, Lowry and Melo can beat anyone in the East, how ydo we get there??

If Teams are really interested in Chandler then their is a way to get Lowry if TO is interested?

This scenario is plausible, pay Lowry 10 mil per, which is less than Chandler is making, Melo can get his money maybe 23/25 mil per...2015 slide KLove into Amare's slot at 20 mil per...Develop Shump, TimJr, and Tyler and see what we have...Have Melo make a full court press on KLove...

salary cap doesn't work that way unless you can TRADE them, unfortunately STAT would require many talents, assets, and many 1st round picks, for anyone of Kevin Love's caliber
And that is why if Melo opts out this summer vs letting his contract expire and then resigning in 2015 is needed for the better of the Knicks

The salary cap is about 60m, with cap holds etc, you cannot substitute a contract for contract unless you are WAY under the salary cap, which we would not be if Melo opts out, with the salaries of Felton, JR Smith, Iman, Pablo, Tim Hardway, 2015 1st rounder, any contracts we look to upgrade between now and 2016.... etc

Telling Kevin Love to come for 10m just isn't happening

but

keeping Melo and Love at about 15m per year is POSSIBLE...

Also Lowry at 10m per year, I would rather take the next available player, we cannot afford to spend that much on a PG of that caliber, Dragic is making 7.5m and has an opt out for 2015

I'm not a cap guru but right now the Knicks have 12.6 mil scheduled for 2015 on the books..Melo and Lowry could add another 30 mil if structured properly...U are telling me we can't add KLove as a free agent at say 18 mil in the first year after that??

In that 12.6m, they are player options of

JR Smith
Raymond Felton

TEAM option of 1m? of Pablo Prigioni

You are not including the salary of

1- Iman
2- Tim Hardway
3- 2015 summer 1st round pick (which we still own)

4- The pay raise of what you assume Lowry and Melo would be making
5- CAP HOLD of which I am not going to fully explain explain, basically we MUST have 12 roster spots held accountable for at the league min of about $500,000

6- future contracts *this summer's 3m MLE*
7- along with any 2nd round picks we may purchase or trade for, with possible future trades, or unsigned rookies to target, Jeremy Tyler who whoever might be kept are younger players to continue development on

So in short, NO, not unless we trade Raymond Felton and/or JR Smith and is your plan to have 3 players of
Lowry, Melo, Love and all vet min FA's and wait another 4 more years till we can add FA's with the MLE and every other year's 1st round pick?

Is that team going to ever contend with Pacer's team moving forward?

If you don't understand the CAP, you probably might think that you can build around Melo if he opts out this year and pay him over 20m per year, but if you do understand it, you will likely understand why he would likely need to recruit for 2015 and NOT opt out, while taking a bit less at least to have talent around him in NYK to contend