fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:I thought he was pretty awsome last year also. He and MDA didnt work. Once that situation dissolved Melo has been a top 10 player for the Knicks, hands down. Only donkeys and tfk cant see that

Seriously...Dude was top 5 in MVP voting and helped us win the division with 54 wins.

MVP voting is basically by ill-informed casual observers.
Any statistically informed analysis at this point would indicate that Melo is still not a superstar but he is playing at a reasonably high level.

Stats are good for the ill-informed who don't understand the game and grope to quantify. Those who do understand can use their eyes and see what's happening.

BING...GO!!!!

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:I thought he was pretty awsome last year also. He and MDA didnt work. Once that situation dissolved Melo has been a top 10 player for the Knicks, hands down. Only donkeys and tfk cant see that

Seriously...Dude was top 5 in MVP voting and helped us win the division with 54 wins.

MVP voting is basically by ill-informed casual observers.
Any statistically informed analysis at this point would indicate that Melo is still not a superstar but he is playing at a reasonably high level.

Stats are good for the ill-informed who don't understand the game and grope to quantify. Those who do understand can use their eyes and see what's happening.

Bonn's not a donkey or ill-informed. He's just a FG% lover/sort of closet Melo hater. I don't think Melo killed his dog, ala tkf, but it must be something personal. I'm guessing it's probably the headband, some deep-seated sort of Slick Watts Halloween nightmare thing.

FG% loving is okay, Barkley shot .600 and averaged at or over .500 for his career and never won sheet. FG% is great for Shaq's and Gilmore's who spend huge amounts of time in the paint. Melo loves the perimeter and will shoot first, always. It's the NBA, you only get to shoot high % at the free throw line. Or if you're Lebron or Durant getting superstar calls day in and day out. Which gets you to the line.

yellowboy90 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:I thought he was pretty awsome last year also. He and MDA didnt work. Once that situation dissolved Melo has been a top 10 player for the Knicks, hands down. Only donkeys and tfk cant see that

Seriously...Dude was top 5 in MVP voting and helped us win the division with 54 wins.

MVP voting is basically by ill-informed casual observers.
Any statistically informed analysis at this point would indicate that Melo is still not a superstar but he is playing at a reasonably high level.

Stats are good for the ill-informed who don't understand the game and grope to quantify. Those who do understand can use their eyes and see what's happening.

Bonn's not a donkey or ill-informed. He's just a FG% lover/sort of closet Melo hater. I don't think Melo killed his dog, ala tkf, but it must be something personal. I'm guessing it's probably the headband, some deep-seated sort of Slick Watts Halloween nightmare thing.

FG% loving is okay, Barkley shot .600 and averaged at or over .500 for his career and never won sheet. FG% is great for Shaq's and Gilmore's who spend huge amounts of time in the paint. Melo loves the perimeter and will shoot first, always. It's the NBA, you only get to shoot high % at the free throw line. Or if you're Lebron or Durant getting superstar calls day in and day out. Which gets you to the line.

well to be accurate Bonn is not in love with fg%. He is more of an advance stat guy. He is the Lt. Chris Sabian of advance stats, imo.

I think what jrod meant was that Bonn was a hater of the FG% lover...

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:I thought he was pretty awsome last year also. He and MDA didnt work. Once that situation dissolved Melo has been a top 10 player for the Knicks, hands down. Only donkeys and tfk cant see that

Seriously...Dude was top 5 in MVP voting and helped us win the division with 54 wins.

MVP voting is basically by ill-informed casual observers.
Any statistically informed analysis at this point would indicate that Melo is still not a superstar but he is playing at a reasonably high level.

Stats are good for the ill-informed who don't understand the game and grope to quantify. Those who do understand can use their eyes and see what's happening.

Spot on. I go to this well way too often I know, but it's like all of the press folks downing Jeter for the better part of two decades. While the stats aren't that bad based on the classic numbers, sabermetrics make him seem barely adequate. However, if you've been watching baseball, especially the Yanks (regardless of whether you like them or even Derek) you can see how important he is to the team, how much he contributes on both ends and there is no denying his clutch-ness...rising to the occasion. There is no replacement player that has or could do what he does.

That said, Melo is not yet to the Knicks what Jeter is to the Yanks and may never be, but all you have to watch the games objectively and you will see that Melo is the key to them winning. When they lose it's rarely his fault, even if he misses a last second shot because he's usually been the only player keeping them in the game. I want to be a bigger fan of the team, but Melo's the only guy on the floor that you can count on at least the majority of the time. He's never had a great team around him and with Dolan he's not likely to anytime soon. I wish him the best for the rest of career regardless of where he plays...unless it's with the Lakers or Heat or Rockets or Spurs or Boston or Charlotte or, well you get my drift.

grillco wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:I thought he was pretty awsome last year also. He and MDA didnt work. Once that situation dissolved Melo has been a top 10 player for the Knicks, hands down. Only donkeys and tfk cant see that

Seriously...Dude was top 5 in MVP voting and helped us win the division with 54 wins.

MVP voting is basically by ill-informed casual observers.
Any statistically informed analysis at this point would indicate that Melo is still not a superstar but he is playing at a reasonably high level.

Stats are good for the ill-informed who don't understand the game and grope to quantify. Those who do understand can use their eyes and see what's happening.

Spot on. I go to this well way too often I know, but it's like all of the press folks downing Jeter for the better part of two decades. While the stats aren't that bad based on the classic numbers, sabermetrics make him seem barely adequate. However, if you've been watching baseball, especially the Yanks (regardless of whether you like them or even Derek) you can see how important he is to the team, how much he contributes on both ends and there is no denying his clutch-ness...rising to the occasion. There is no replacement player that has or could do what he does.

That said, Melo is not yet to the Knicks what Jeter is to the Yanks and may never be, but all you have to watch the games objectively and you will see that Melo is the key to them winning. When they lose it's rarely his fault, even if he misses a last second shot because he's usually been the only player keeping them in the game. I want to be a bigger fan of the team, but Melo's the only guy on the floor that you can count on at least the majority of the time. He's never had a great team around him and with Dolan he's not likely to anytime soon. I wish him the best for the rest of career regardless of where he plays...unless it's with the Lakers or Heat or Rockets or Spurs or Boston or Charlotte or, well you get my drift.

So what comes first, the Core Four or the egg?

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:I thought he was pretty awsome last year also. He and MDA didnt work. Once that situation dissolved Melo has been a top 10 player for the Knicks, hands down. Only donkeys and tfk cant see that

Seriously...Dude was top 5 in MVP voting and helped us win the division with 54 wins.

MVP voting is basically by ill-informed casual observers.
Any statistically informed analysis at this point would indicate that Melo is still not a superstar but he is playing at a reasonably high level.

Stats are good for the ill-informed who don't understand the game and grope to quantify. Those who do understand can use their eyes and see what's happening.

Bonn's not a donkey or ill-informed. He's just a FG% lover/sort of closet Melo hater. I don't think Melo killed his dog, ala tkf, but it must be something personal. I'm guessing it's probably the headband, some deep-seated sort of Slick Watts Halloween nightmare thing.

FG% loving is okay, Barkley shot .600 and averaged at or over .500 for his career and never won sheet. FG% is great for Shaq's and Gilmore's who spend huge amounts of time in the paint. Melo loves the perimeter and will shoot first, always. It's the NBA, you only get to shoot high % at the free throw line. Or if you're Lebron or Durant getting superstar calls day in and day out. Which gets you to the line.

hahaha. Trust me, you're way off. Many of the people in the stats community would question why I'm so kind to Melo. You don't even have the right metric. For simplicity and out of laziness, I sometimes cite FG% but there are much better measures of efficiency.

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:I thought he was pretty awsome last year also. He and MDA didnt work. Once that situation dissolved Melo has been a top 10 player for the Knicks, hands down. Only donkeys and tfk cant see that

Seriously...Dude was top 5 in MVP voting and helped us win the division with 54 wins.

MVP voting is basically by ill-informed casual observers.
Any statistically informed analysis at this point would indicate that Melo is still not a superstar but he is playing at a reasonably high level.

Stats are good for the ill-informed who don't understand the game and grope to quantify. Those who do understand can use their eyes and see what's happening.

Bonn's not a donkey or ill-informed. He's just a FG% lover/sort of closet Melo hater. I don't think Melo killed his dog, ala tkf, but it must be something personal. I'm guessing it's probably the headband, some deep-seated sort of Slick Watts Halloween nightmare thing.

FG% loving is okay, Barkley shot .600 and averaged at or over .500 for his career and never won sheet. FG% is great for Shaq's and Gilmore's who spend huge amounts of time in the paint. Melo loves the perimeter and will shoot first, always. It's the NBA, you only get to shoot high % at the free throw line. Or if you're Lebron or Durant getting superstar calls day in and day out. Which gets you to the line.

well to be accurate Bonn is not in love with fg%. He is more of an advance stat guy. He is the Lt. Chris Sabian of advance stats, imo.

I think what jrod meant was that Bonn was a hater of the FG% lover...

No, what jrod meant is that Bonn is a hater of the Melo lover... If Melo suddenly became authentically 'efficient' (say 51% shooting) things would get very interesting around here for Mr. Advanced Stat. Of course, it's not like that's going to happen, but hey, Bonn already begrudgingly loves the Melo improved rebounding.

You seem to mis-perceive a lot of what I write. I'm definitely happy with the improvement in Melo's turnovers and if it lasts, in his rebounding. There wouldn't be anything interesting or dramatic if Melo had a long-term improvement in his scoring efficiency. I would just declare that I was happy with it - like I've done for the improvement in turnover rate.
Likewise, if there's a long-term deterioration, I won't ignore it or blame his teammates like a few here do.

let me ask you this: if he remains inefficient, and by inefficient i mean he takes 4-6 too many shots a game that are just bad shots-- then isn't he taking away better shot opportunities from teammates?

i just don't think you get anywhere substantive in the playoffs with a guy taking over 17-18 shots a game.

fishmike wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:I thought he was pretty awsome last year also. He and MDA didnt work. Once that situation dissolved Melo has been a top 10 player for the Knicks, hands down. Only donkeys and tfk cant see that

Seriously...Dude was top 5 in MVP voting and helped us win the division with 54 wins.

MVP voting is basically by ill-informed casual observers.
Any statistically informed analysis at this point would indicate that Melo is still not a superstar but he is playing at a reasonably high level.

Stats are good for the ill-informed who don't understand the game and grope to quantify. Those who do understand can use their eyes and see what's happening.

Bonn's not a donkey or ill-informed. He's just a FG% lover/sort of closet Melo hater. I don't think Melo killed his dog, ala tkf, but it must be something personal. I'm guessing it's probably the headband, some deep-seated sort of Slick Watts Halloween nightmare thing.

FG% loving is okay, Barkley shot .600 and averaged at or over .500 for his career and never won sheet. FG% is great for Shaq's and Gilmore's who spend huge amounts of time in the paint. Melo loves the perimeter and will shoot first, always. It's the NBA, you only get to shoot high % at the free throw line. Or if you're Lebron or Durant getting superstar calls day in and day out. Which gets you to the line.

well to be accurate Bonn is not in love with fg%. He is more of an advance stat guy. He is the Lt. Chris Sabian of advance stats, imo.

I think what jrod meant was that Bonn was a hater of the FG% lover...

No, what jrod meant is that Bonn is a hater of the Melo lover... If Melo suddenly became authentically 'efficient' (say 51% shooting) things would get very interesting around here for Mr. Advanced Stat. Of course, it's not like that's going to happen, but hey, Bonn already begrudgingly loves the Melo improved rebounding.

You seem to mis-perceive a lot of what I write. I'm definitely happy with the improvement in Melo's turnovers and if it lasts, in his rebounding. There wouldn't be anything interesting or dramatic if Melo had a long-term improvement in his scoring efficiency. I would just declare that I was happy with it - like I've done for the improvement in turnover rate.
Likewise, if there's a long-term deterioration, I won't ignore it or blame his teammates like a few here do.

let me ask you this: if he remains inefficient, and by inefficient i mean he takes 4-6 too many shots a game that are just bad shots-- then isn't he taking away better shot opportunities from teammates?

i just don't think you get anywhere substantive in the playoffs with a guy taking over 17-18 shots a game.

yes! You nailed it!!!!

Just which teammate is Melo stealing these shots from now????
Bargs? 44%
JR? 35%
Ray 39%
Shump? 39%
Beno? 43%
RonRon? 39%

Now if you can produce vaginametrics that prove everytime Melo takes a shot he's taking it from one of the two guys who shoot well on the team then yea... he's hurting us. Otherwise I would generally say that Melo taking the volume of the shots is a positive.

Lets also ignore that Melo's averaging almost 9 boards a game and for a guy who puts it on the floor so much he doesnt turn it over. Quite a bit less then Lebron and KD.

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:I thought he was pretty awsome last year also. He and MDA didnt work. Once that situation dissolved Melo has been a top 10 player for the Knicks, hands down. Only donkeys and tfk cant see that

Seriously...Dude was top 5 in MVP voting and helped us win the division with 54 wins.

MVP voting is basically by ill-informed casual observers.
Any statistically informed analysis at this point would indicate that Melo is still not a superstar but he is playing at a reasonably high level.

Stats are good for the ill-informed who don't understand the game and grope to quantify. Those who do understand can use their eyes and see what's happening.

Bonn's not a donkey or ill-informed. He's just a FG% lover/sort of closet Melo hater. I don't think Melo killed his dog, ala tkf, but it must be something personal. I'm guessing it's probably the headband, some deep-seated sort of Slick Watts Halloween nightmare thing.

FG% loving is okay, Barkley shot .600 and averaged at or over .500 for his career and never won sheet. FG% is great for Shaq's and Gilmore's who spend huge amounts of time in the paint. Melo loves the perimeter and will shoot first, always. It's the NBA, you only get to shoot high % at the free throw line. Or if you're Lebron or Durant getting superstar calls day in and day out. Which gets you to the line.

well to be accurate Bonn is not in love with fg%. He is more of an advance stat guy. He is the Lt. Chris Sabian of advance stats, imo.

I think what jrod meant was that Bonn was a hater of the FG% lover...

No, what jrod meant is that Bonn is a hater of the Melo lover... If Melo suddenly became authentically 'efficient' (say 51% shooting) things would get very interesting around here for Mr. Advanced Stat. Of course, it's not like that's going to happen, but hey, Bonn already begrudgingly loves the Melo improved rebounding.

You seem to mis-perceive a lot of what I write. I'm definitely happy with the improvement in Melo's turnovers and if it lasts, in his rebounding. There wouldn't be anything interesting or dramatic if Melo had a long-term improvement in his scoring efficiency. I would just declare that I was happy with it - like I've done for the improvement in turnover rate.
Likewise, if there's a long-term deterioration, I won't ignore it or blame his teammates like a few here do.

let me ask you this: if he remains inefficient, and by inefficient i mean he takes 4-6 too many shots a game that are just bad shots-- then isn't he taking away better shot opportunities from teammates?

i just don't think you get anywhere substantive in the playoffs with a guy taking over 17-18 shots a game.

yes! You nailed it!!!!

Just which teammate is Melo stealing these shots from now????
Bargs? 44%
JR? 35%
Ray 39%
Shump? 39%
Beno? 43%
RonRon? 39%

Now if you can produce vaginametrics that prove everytime Melo takes a shot he's taking it from one of the two guys who shoot well on the team then yea... he's hurting us. Otherwise I would generally say that Melo taking the volume of the shots is a positive.

Lets also ignore that Melo's averaging almost 9 boards a game and for a guy who puts it on the floor so much he doesnt turn it over. Quite a bit less then Lebron and KD.

these guys are not machines. somewhere in your consciousness there must be a place that understands that in a team sport synergy plays an important role.

so if you want to abandon vaginametrics and use the good old eye test then fine: there is an alarming lack of cohesion and synergy i see when melo plays his usual volume shooting game. very tough to watch the knicks when he is not buying into a team game but some people just love to blame the "victim."

turnovers down? cool. for a guy who doesn't look to make plays for others i would hope his turnovers would be down.

rebounds up? great. they'll need better rebounding come playoff time. do you think your hero will be playing 39 minutes a game by then as well or will his conditioning become an issue once again?

Here is what I hear from you:
Melo should eliminate the shots he misses and he would be a better player.

Your right. They arent machines. But you seem OK judging them as such.

You have your Melo circle jerk right here. Its Melo's fault his teammates arent involved more. Then when they stink its MElo's fault for not getting them better shots.

Is Melo a spot up shooter? No.. most every shot is going to be contested.

Who does he pass it too? A wing. Who did I list? Wings. Unless you blame for not getting our bigs good looks as well?

I swear the 3rd and 4th graders I coach know more about the game. Oh yea.. not I know why, they have all actually played it

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:I thought he was pretty awsome last year also. He and MDA didnt work. Once that situation dissolved Melo has been a top 10 player for the Knicks, hands down. Only donkeys and tfk cant see that

Seriously...Dude was top 5 in MVP voting and helped us win the division with 54 wins.

MVP voting is basically by ill-informed casual observers.
Any statistically informed analysis at this point would indicate that Melo is still not a superstar but he is playing at a reasonably high level.

Stats are good for the ill-informed who don't understand the game and grope to quantify. Those who do understand can use their eyes and see what's happening.

Bonn's not a donkey or ill-informed. He's just a FG% lover/sort of closet Melo hater. I don't think Melo killed his dog, ala tkf, but it must be something personal. I'm guessing it's probably the headband, some deep-seated sort of Slick Watts Halloween nightmare thing.

FG% loving is okay, Barkley shot .600 and averaged at or over .500 for his career and never won sheet. FG% is great for Shaq's and Gilmore's who spend huge amounts of time in the paint. Melo loves the perimeter and will shoot first, always. It's the NBA, you only get to shoot high % at the free throw line. Or if you're Lebron or Durant getting superstar calls day in and day out. Which gets you to the line.

well to be accurate Bonn is not in love with fg%. He is more of an advance stat guy. He is the Lt. Chris Sabian of advance stats, imo.

I think what jrod meant was that Bonn was a hater of the FG% lover...

No, what jrod meant is that Bonn is a hater of the Melo lover... If Melo suddenly became authentically 'efficient' (say 51% shooting) things would get very interesting around here for Mr. Advanced Stat. Of course, it's not like that's going to happen, but hey, Bonn already begrudgingly loves the Melo improved rebounding.

You seem to mis-perceive a lot of what I write. I'm definitely happy with the improvement in Melo's turnovers and if it lasts, in his rebounding. There wouldn't be anything interesting or dramatic if Melo had a long-term improvement in his scoring efficiency. I would just declare that I was happy with it - like I've done for the improvement in turnover rate.
Likewise, if there's a long-term deterioration, I won't ignore it or blame his teammates like a few here do.

let me ask you this: if he remains inefficient, and by inefficient i mean he takes 4-6 too many shots a game that are just bad shots-- then isn't he taking away better shot opportunities from teammates?

i just don't think you get anywhere substantive in the playoffs with a guy taking over 17-18 shots a game.

yes! You nailed it!!!!

Just which teammate is Melo stealing these shots from now????
Bargs? 44%
JR? 35%
Ray 39%
Shump? 39%
Beno? 43%
RonRon? 39%

Now if you can produce vaginametrics that prove everytime Melo takes a shot he's taking it from one of the two guys who shoot well on the team then yea... he's hurting us. Otherwise I would generally say that Melo taking the volume of the shots is a positive.

Lets also ignore that Melo's averaging almost 9 boards a game and for a guy who puts it on the floor so much he doesnt turn it over. Quite a bit less then Lebron and KD.

these guys are not machines. somewhere in your consciousness there must be a place that understands that in a team sport synergy plays an important role.

so if you want to abandon vaginametrics and use the good old eye test then fine: there is an alarming lack of cohesion and synergy i see when melo plays his usual volume shooting game. very tough to watch the knicks when he is not buying into a team game but some people just love to blame the "victim."

turnovers down? cool. for a guy who doesn't look to make plays for others i would hope his turnovers would be down.

rebounds up? great. they'll need better rebounding come playoff time. do you think your hero will be playing 39 minutes a game by then as well or will his conditioning become an issue once again?

your right.... we have seen these stretches where nobody on the Knicks can shoot. In fact Im pretty sure every backcourt player on the roster except Hardaway shoots BELOW 40% on this roster. So what happens when your guards cant shoot? Teams pack the middle and in the Knicks case the choice becomes watching JR, Felton and Shump brick jumper after jumper as they have most of the year or you can ISO Melo and try to get a basket while the guys who cant buy a shot anyway just stand and watch. Both options suck, but what does this have to do with Melo?

Here is what I hear from you:
Melo should eliminate the shots he misses and he would be a better player.

Your right. They arent machines. But you seem OK judging them as such.

You have your Melo circle jerk right here. Its Melo's fault his teammates arent involved more. Then when they stink its MElo's fault for not getting them better shots.

ha ha ha that is NOT what is being said! he should eliminate 4-6 BAD SHOTS. it's about bad shot selection and the negative effect it has on teammates. it's about bad shot selection that often will result in 4-5 point swings. so yeah if he is taking 4-6 too many shots then he is keeping his teammates uninvolved and lets add less focussed than they otherwise would be.

i'd wager you're a big fan of bryant. well, when he failed to get his teammates involved it was his teammates' faults for not stepping up, right?

for me this is not a chicken or egg thing: if the ball is in your hands the majority of the time you are obliged to keep others involved. if not then you have to trust that the ball will find you or that the game will come to you.