NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

dk7th wrote:that said, a case in point is looking at respective TS% for both players. remember that this stat incorporates 2-pointers, 3-pointers, and free throws into a bundle. therefore, a player like griffin is at a disadvantage because he does not shoot the 3. and a so-called versatile scorer like melo that is supposed to be so effective going to the basket, drawing fouls, and hitting 3s should be at an advantage.

but griffin even without the 3 is at an above-average 56%TS for his career and 57% this season. as a matter of fact he has been trending upwards. melo, meanwhile is a below-average at 54.5%TS for his career with a basic flatline. he is basically the same inefficient scorer he always has been. is griffin at an advantage because he gets set up by others to finish, sort of like stoudemire used to be? yes, that is a factor since he is more of a pure power forward. is he at a disadvantage because he is a poor free throw shooter? yes he needs to improve there too. but considering that melo is regarded as an elite scorer his TS% says otherwise, while griffin, for all his limitations, is still more efficient scorer, ie not a volume shooter. to see what i mean, look at how many shots melo takes to get his points compared to griffin: melo shoots an average of 20 times a game-- that's too much for someone who scores inefficiently. meanwhile griffin takes 15.5 shots to get his points. melo has averaged 1.28 points per shot attempt while blake averages 1.35 points per shot. lebron 1.37, durant 1.42. this is quite a gap.

Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and call bull****. A player's true shooting percentage (TS%) is a means of better standardizing a player's shooting prowess, since 3 point shots are harder to hit and can skew a FG%. The fact that Melo takes more 3's has nothing to do with the metric because it is being standardized; hence the entire point of the stat. With that being said, there is only a 2.4% difference between the two. In what statistical community is that enough to yield a "significant difference"?

I'm not entirely sure what the league average is but according to this site, Melo's TS% is 65th in the league, which does not sound elite (nor does it sound below average since there are over 400 players in the league) but is still in the ballpark of other contemporaries that are highly regarded as efficient offensive players: Tony Parker (55th: 55.7 TS%), Ty Lawson (61st: 55.0 TS%), Roy Hibbert (64th: 54.8 TS%), Joe Johnson (68th: 54.5 TS%), Monta Ellis (71st: 54.1 TS%), Loul Deng (72nd: 53.8 TS%), Kyrie Irving (84th: 52.4 TS%), John Wall (89th: 52.0 TS%), Russell Westbrook (92nd: 51.8 TS%), David West (98th: 51.4 TS%) and LaMarcus Aldridge (100th: 51.1 TS%).

Given the fact that some of the people ahead of Melo on the list are Kyle Korver (2nd: 67.1 TS%), Robin Lopez (17th: 59.7 TS%) and DeAndre Jordan (20th: 59.5 TS%), I'd pipe down about this stat being indicative of a player's offensive abilities or prowess http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/player-stat/ts-percentage. Kevin Garnett, a sure-fire first ballot Hall of Famer, had a career TS% of 54.7% and I've never heard of him being considered an "inefficient scorer". WILT FUCKING CHAMBERLAIN, also had a TS% of 54.7% and I've never heard of him being considered an "inefficient scorer" http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html Meanwhile, Michael Jordan had a 56.9 TS%, so I guess that means Blake Griffin is destined to be the superior offensive player http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html

dk7th wrote:raw assists? that's too simplistic. look at the usage (USG%) for both players and then look at the assisted baskets (AST%) when each are on the floor. first off griffin's usage is a quite reasonable one at 26.5% while melo's is astronomical: 32% for the bulk of his career. meanwhile griffin's teammates get assisted around 17% of the time when he is on the floor which means he is not a ball stopper or offensive stagnator-- the ratio of usage to assisted buckets is a healthy 1.56:1 for blake as a power forward, and an unhealthy 2.13 for melo for a tweener. really anything over 1.80:1 means offensive stagnation for anyone whose usage rate is 25 and over. i mean in a perfectly balanced offense i suppose all 5 players would have a 20% usage rate, right?... so it is incumbent upon the players with higher usages to have higher assist rates for teammates if the offense is to be playing efficiently and with ball sharing and movement at its optimal.

bottom line blake is a more efficient player and a better ball mover and sharer. he is not a versatile scorer or a good free throw shooter, but i think a case can be made for saying that griffin plays within his limitations, and in a team game that has intrinsic value. plus he is young and seems to be improving, while melo is not improving and will only be getting older and slower.

Why are we looking at USG%? That has no bearing on the conversation, other than to reinforce the fact that Carmelo is a franchise caliber player and operates as such, like Paul George (28.3 2013-2014 USG%), Kevin Garnett during his T-Wolves years (27.8-29.0 USG%), Kobe Bryant (31.8 Career USG%) and Dwayne Wade (32.0 Career USG%). It would seem to be an indictment as a star player to have a lower USG% than a higher one, given the names on the list.

As for assisted baskets (AST%), one has to account for a team's proficiency in completing shots off the pass which is in part demonstrated by the offensive efficiency rating (ORtg) aka a standard for measuring how good/****ty teammates are. While Melo may have a lower AST% rating compared to Blake, he's also consistently had ****tier players. For example, this season the Knicks rank 19th in this respect (104.5) and the Clippers rank 8th (108.5). The Knicks also rank 29th (90.3) in pace compared to the Clippers who rank 6th (95.7). Better scoring teammates and a quicker pace that offers more possessions equal more opportunities to assist and pad your AST%. It's as simple as that. Bottom line, you have an agenda and no gimmicky stats will validate your bull****.

The TS% difference is substantial actually. For a guy who takes about 20 shots and 7 FTs, a .025 TS% improvement is going to give about 1 more point a game. If I remember correctly, adding 1 free point per game (not a point on a new possession but a free point) adds something like 4 wins over an 82 game season.

With all due respect, I think it's a stupid ass statistic. What does it really prove or even intimate? That I should start building my team around Kyle Korver, Robin Lopez and DeAndre Jordan?

No, no one should look at TS% independently of volume but when you're comparing two high volume scorers, you can focus on just the TS%

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

dk7th wrote:that said, a case in point is looking at respective TS% for both players. remember that this stat incorporates 2-pointers, 3-pointers, and free throws into a bundle. therefore, a player like griffin is at a disadvantage because he does not shoot the 3. and a so-called versatile scorer like melo that is supposed to be so effective going to the basket, drawing fouls, and hitting 3s should be at an advantage.

but griffin even without the 3 is at an above-average 56%TS for his career and 57% this season. as a matter of fact he has been trending upwards. melo, meanwhile is a below-average at 54.5%TS for his career with a basic flatline. he is basically the same inefficient scorer he always has been. is griffin at an advantage because he gets set up by others to finish, sort of like stoudemire used to be? yes, that is a factor since he is more of a pure power forward. is he at a disadvantage because he is a poor free throw shooter? yes he needs to improve there too. but considering that melo is regarded as an elite scorer his TS% says otherwise, while griffin, for all his limitations, is still more efficient scorer, ie not a volume shooter. to see what i mean, look at how many shots melo takes to get his points compared to griffin: melo shoots an average of 20 times a game-- that's too much for someone who scores inefficiently. meanwhile griffin takes 15.5 shots to get his points. melo has averaged 1.28 points per shot attempt while blake averages 1.35 points per shot. lebron 1.37, durant 1.42. this is quite a gap.

Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and call bull****. A player's true shooting percentage (TS%) is a means of better standardizing a player's shooting prowess, since 3 point shots are harder to hit and can skew a FG%. The fact that Melo takes more 3's has nothing to do with the metric because it is being standardized; hence the entire point of the stat. With that being said, there is only a 2.4% difference between the two. In what statistical community is that enough to yield a "significant difference"?

I'm not entirely sure what the league average is but according to this site, Melo's TS% is 65th in the league, which does not sound elite (nor does it sound below average since there are over 400 players in the league) but is still in the ballpark of other contemporaries that are highly regarded as efficient offensive players: Tony Parker (55th: 55.7 TS%), Ty Lawson (61st: 55.0 TS%), Roy Hibbert (64th: 54.8 TS%), Joe Johnson (68th: 54.5 TS%), Monta Ellis (71st: 54.1 TS%), Loul Deng (72nd: 53.8 TS%), Kyrie Irving (84th: 52.4 TS%), John Wall (89th: 52.0 TS%), Russell Westbrook (92nd: 51.8 TS%), David West (98th: 51.4 TS%) and LaMarcus Aldridge (100th: 51.1 TS%).

Given the fact that some of the people ahead of Melo on the list are Kyle Korver (2nd: 67.1 TS%), Robin Lopez (17th: 59.7 TS%) and DeAndre Jordan (20th: 59.5 TS%), I'd pipe down about this stat being indicative of a player's offensive abilities or prowess http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/player-stat/ts-percentage. Kevin Garnett, a sure-fire first ballot Hall of Famer, had a career TS% of 54.7% and I've never heard of him being considered an "inefficient scorer". WILT FUCKING CHAMBERLAIN, also had a TS% of 54.7% and I've never heard of him being considered an "inefficient scorer" http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html Meanwhile, Michael Jordan had a 56.9 TS%, so I guess that means Blake Griffin is destined to be the superior offensive player http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html

dk7th wrote:raw assists? that's too simplistic. look at the usage (USG%) for both players and then look at the assisted baskets (AST%) when each are on the floor. first off griffin's usage is a quite reasonable one at 26.5% while melo's is astronomical: 32% for the bulk of his career. meanwhile griffin's teammates get assisted around 17% of the time when he is on the floor which means he is not a ball stopper or offensive stagnator-- the ratio of usage to assisted buckets is a healthy 1.56:1 for blake as a power forward, and an unhealthy 2.13 for melo for a tweener. really anything over 1.80:1 means offensive stagnation for anyone whose usage rate is 25 and over. i mean in a perfectly balanced offense i suppose all 5 players would have a 20% usage rate, right?... so it is incumbent upon the players with higher usages to have higher assist rates for teammates if the offense is to be playing efficiently and with ball sharing and movement at its optimal.

bottom line blake is a more efficient player and a better ball mover and sharer. he is not a versatile scorer or a good free throw shooter, but i think a case can be made for saying that griffin plays within his limitations, and in a team game that has intrinsic value. plus he is young and seems to be improving, while melo is not improving and will only be getting older and slower.

Why are we looking at USG%? That has no bearing on the conversation, other than to reinforce the fact that Carmelo is a franchise caliber player and operates as such, like Paul George (28.3 2013-2014 USG%), Kevin Garnett during his T-Wolves years (27.8-29.0 USG%), Kobe Bryant (31.8 Career USG%) and Dwayne Wade (32.0 Career USG%). It would seem to be an indictment as a star player to have a lower USG% than a higher one, given the names on the list.

As for assisted baskets (AST%), one has to account for a team's proficiency in completing shots off the pass which is in part demonstrated by the offensive efficiency rating (ORtg) aka a standard for measuring how good/****ty teammates are. While Melo may have a lower AST% rating compared to Blake, he's also consistently had ****tier players. For example, this season the Knicks rank 19th in this respect (104.5) and the Clippers rank 8th (108.5). The Knicks also rank 29th (90.3) in pace compared to the Clippers who rank 6th (95.7). Better scoring teammates and a quicker pace that offers more possessions equal more opportunities to assist and pad your AST%. It's as simple as that. Bottom line, you have an agenda and no gimmicky stats will validate your bull****.

The TS% difference is substantial actually. For a guy who takes about 20 shots and 7 FTs, a .025 TS% improvement is going to give about 1 more point a game. If I remember correctly, adding 1 free point per game (not a point on a new possession but a free point) adds something like 4 wins over an 82 game season.

With all due respect, I think it's a stupid ass statistic. What does it really prove or even intimate? That I should start building my team around Kyle Korver, Robin Lopez and DeAndre Jordan?

No, no one should look at TS% independently of volume but when you're comparing two high volume scorers, you can focus on just the TS%

Cool, then Wilt (54.7 TS%) and Kobe (55.5 TS%) were volume scorers for their respective eras. You think Kobe was a relatively better scorer than Wilt? The difference between the two is statistically different after all.

NardDogNation wrote:

dk7th wrote:that said, a case in point is looking at respective TS% for both players. remember that this stat incorporates 2-pointers, 3-pointers, and free throws into a bundle. therefore, a player like griffin is at a disadvantage because he does not shoot the 3. and a so-called versatile scorer like melo that is supposed to be so effective going to the basket, drawing fouls, and hitting 3s should be at an advantage.

but griffin even without the 3 is at an above-average 56%TS for his career and 57% this season. as a matter of fact he has been trending upwards. melo, meanwhile is a below-average at 54.5%TS for his career with a basic flatline. he is basically the same inefficient scorer he always has been. is griffin at an advantage because he gets set up by others to finish, sort of like stoudemire used to be? yes, that is a factor since he is more of a pure power forward. is he at a disadvantage because he is a poor free throw shooter? yes he needs to improve there too. but considering that melo is regarded as an elite scorer his TS% says otherwise, while griffin, for all his limitations, is still more efficient scorer, ie not a volume shooter. to see what i mean, look at how many shots melo takes to get his points compared to griffin: melo shoots an average of 20 times a game-- that's too much for someone who scores inefficiently. meanwhile griffin takes 15.5 shots to get his points. melo has averaged 1.28 points per shot attempt while blake averages 1.35 points per shot. lebron 1.37, durant 1.42. this is quite a gap.

Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and call bull****. A player's true shooting percentage (TS%) is a means of better standardizing a player's shooting prowess, since 3 point shots are harder to hit and can skew a FG%. The fact that Melo takes more 3's has nothing to do with the metric because it is being standardized; hence the entire point of the stat. With that being said, there is only a 2.4% difference between the two. In what statistical community is that enough to yield a "significant difference"?

I'm not entirely sure what the league average is but according to this site, Melo's TS% is 65th in the league, which does not sound elite (nor does it sound below average since there are over 400 players in the league) but is still in the ballpark of other contemporaries that are highly regarded as efficient offensive players: Tony Parker (55th: 55.7 TS%), Ty Lawson (61st: 55.0 TS%), Roy Hibbert (64th: 54.8 TS%), Joe Johnson (68th: 54.5 TS%), Monta Ellis (71st: 54.1 TS%), Loul Deng (72nd: 53.8 TS%), Kyrie Irving (84th: 52.4 TS%), John Wall (89th: 52.0 TS%), Russell Westbrook (92nd: 51.8 TS%), David West (98th: 51.4 TS%) and LaMarcus Aldridge (100th: 51.1 TS%).

Given the fact that some of the people ahead of Melo on the list are Kyle Korver (2nd: 67.1 TS%), Robin Lopez (17th: 59.7 TS%) and DeAndre Jordan (20th: 59.5 TS%), I'd pipe down about this stat being indicative of a player's offensive abilities or prowess http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/player-stat/ts-percentage. Kevin Garnett, a sure-fire first ballot Hall of Famer, had a career TS% of 54.7% and I've never heard of him being considered an "inefficient scorer". WILT FUCKING CHAMBERLAIN, also had a TS% of 54.7% and I've never heard of him being considered an "inefficient scorer" http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html Meanwhile, Michael Jordan had a 56.9 TS%, so I guess that means Blake Griffin is destined to be the superior offensive player http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html

dk7th wrote:raw assists? that's too simplistic. look at the usage (USG%) for both players and then look at the assisted baskets (AST%) when each are on the floor. first off griffin's usage is a quite reasonable one at 26.5% while melo's is astronomical: 32% for the bulk of his career. meanwhile griffin's teammates get assisted around 17% of the time when he is on the floor which means he is not a ball stopper or offensive stagnator-- the ratio of usage to assisted buckets is a healthy 1.56:1 for blake as a power forward, and an unhealthy 2.13 for melo for a tweener. really anything over 1.80:1 means offensive stagnation for anyone whose usage rate is 25 and over. i mean in a perfectly balanced offense i suppose all 5 players would have a 20% usage rate, right?... so it is incumbent upon the players with higher usages to have higher assist rates for teammates if the offense is to be playing efficiently and with ball sharing and movement at its optimal.

bottom line blake is a more efficient player and a better ball mover and sharer. he is not a versatile scorer or a good free throw shooter, but i think a case can be made for saying that griffin plays within his limitations, and in a team game that has intrinsic value. plus he is young and seems to be improving, while melo is not improving and will only be getting older and slower.

Why are we looking at USG%? That has no bearing on the conversation, other than to reinforce the fact that Carmelo is a franchise caliber player and operates as such, like Paul George (28.3 2013-2014 USG%), Kevin Garnett during his T-Wolves years (27.8-29.0 USG%), Kobe Bryant (31.8 Career USG%) and Dwayne Wade (32.0 Career USG%). It would seem to be an indictment as a star player to have a lower USG% than a higher one, given the names on the list.

As for assisted baskets (AST%), one has to account for a team's proficiency in completing shots off the pass which is in part demonstrated by the offensive efficiency rating (ORtg) aka a standard for measuring how good/****ty teammates are. While Melo may have a lower AST% rating compared to Blake, he's also consistently had ****tier players. For example, this season the Knicks rank 19th in this respect (104.5) and the Clippers rank 8th (108.5). The Knicks also rank 29th (90.3) in pace compared to the Clippers who rank 6th (95.7). Better scoring teammates and a quicker pace that offers more possessions equal more opportunities to assist and pad your AST%. It's as simple as that. Bottom line, you have an agenda and no gimmicky stats will validate your bull****.

you shouldn't be criticizing what you don't understand. the nuances in my argument simply elude you. first of all, the players you cite starting with korver are in effect finishers with very low usage rates. korver is a three point specialist who finishes possessions and whose usage rate is merely in the low teens. sight unseen the same goes for jordan, lopez.

garnett, like griffin, does not use the 3 point shot so he is at a relative disadvantage when looking at TS%. chamberlain never took a shot from more than 10 feet from the basket. mike jordan never took more than 3 3 pointers per game and averaged less than two per game for his career.

my opinion is that the higher the usage rate the more responsible a player is for keeping the ball moving, which is represented by the assist rate. the closer that ratio is to 1:1 [usg:ast] the better that player is at preventing stagnation and promoting flow. look at the numbers for paul george, wade, jordan, even bryant. you will see that they are far more deserving of the ball than anthony is.

i could go on eviscerating your response but i will spare others the time and energy and leave you in your state of ignorant certitude.

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

dk7th wrote:that said, a case in point is looking at respective TS% for both players. remember that this stat incorporates 2-pointers, 3-pointers, and free throws into a bundle. therefore, a player like griffin is at a disadvantage because he does not shoot the 3. and a so-called versatile scorer like melo that is supposed to be so effective going to the basket, drawing fouls, and hitting 3s should be at an advantage.

but griffin even without the 3 is at an above-average 56%TS for his career and 57% this season. as a matter of fact he has been trending upwards. melo, meanwhile is a below-average at 54.5%TS for his career with a basic flatline. he is basically the same inefficient scorer he always has been. is griffin at an advantage because he gets set up by others to finish, sort of like stoudemire used to be? yes, that is a factor since he is more of a pure power forward. is he at a disadvantage because he is a poor free throw shooter? yes he needs to improve there too. but considering that melo is regarded as an elite scorer his TS% says otherwise, while griffin, for all his limitations, is still more efficient scorer, ie not a volume shooter. to see what i mean, look at how many shots melo takes to get his points compared to griffin: melo shoots an average of 20 times a game-- that's too much for someone who scores inefficiently. meanwhile griffin takes 15.5 shots to get his points. melo has averaged 1.28 points per shot attempt while blake averages 1.35 points per shot. lebron 1.37, durant 1.42. this is quite a gap.

Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and call bull****. A player's true shooting percentage (TS%) is a means of better standardizing a player's shooting prowess, since 3 point shots are harder to hit and can skew a FG%. The fact that Melo takes more 3's has nothing to do with the metric because it is being standardized; hence the entire point of the stat. With that being said, there is only a 2.4% difference between the two. In what statistical community is that enough to yield a "significant difference"?

I'm not entirely sure what the league average is but according to this site, Melo's TS% is 65th in the league, which does not sound elite (nor does it sound below average since there are over 400 players in the league) but is still in the ballpark of other contemporaries that are highly regarded as efficient offensive players: Tony Parker (55th: 55.7 TS%), Ty Lawson (61st: 55.0 TS%), Roy Hibbert (64th: 54.8 TS%), Joe Johnson (68th: 54.5 TS%), Monta Ellis (71st: 54.1 TS%), Loul Deng (72nd: 53.8 TS%), Kyrie Irving (84th: 52.4 TS%), John Wall (89th: 52.0 TS%), Russell Westbrook (92nd: 51.8 TS%), David West (98th: 51.4 TS%) and LaMarcus Aldridge (100th: 51.1 TS%).

Given the fact that some of the people ahead of Melo on the list are Kyle Korver (2nd: 67.1 TS%), Robin Lopez (17th: 59.7 TS%) and DeAndre Jordan (20th: 59.5 TS%), I'd pipe down about this stat being indicative of a player's offensive abilities or prowess http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/player-stat/ts-percentage. Kevin Garnett, a sure-fire first ballot Hall of Famer, had a career TS% of 54.7% and I've never heard of him being considered an "inefficient scorer". WILT FUCKING CHAMBERLAIN, also had a TS% of 54.7% and I've never heard of him being considered an "inefficient scorer" http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html Meanwhile, Michael Jordan had a 56.9 TS%, so I guess that means Blake Griffin is destined to be the superior offensive player http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html

dk7th wrote:raw assists? that's too simplistic. look at the usage (USG%) for both players and then look at the assisted baskets (AST%) when each are on the floor. first off griffin's usage is a quite reasonable one at 26.5% while melo's is astronomical: 32% for the bulk of his career. meanwhile griffin's teammates get assisted around 17% of the time when he is on the floor which means he is not a ball stopper or offensive stagnator-- the ratio of usage to assisted buckets is a healthy 1.56:1 for blake as a power forward, and an unhealthy 2.13 for melo for a tweener. really anything over 1.80:1 means offensive stagnation for anyone whose usage rate is 25 and over. i mean in a perfectly balanced offense i suppose all 5 players would have a 20% usage rate, right?... so it is incumbent upon the players with higher usages to have higher assist rates for teammates if the offense is to be playing efficiently and with ball sharing and movement at its optimal.

bottom line blake is a more efficient player and a better ball mover and sharer. he is not a versatile scorer or a good free throw shooter, but i think a case can be made for saying that griffin plays within his limitations, and in a team game that has intrinsic value. plus he is young and seems to be improving, while melo is not improving and will only be getting older and slower.

Why are we looking at USG%? That has no bearing on the conversation, other than to reinforce the fact that Carmelo is a franchise caliber player and operates as such, like Paul George (28.3 2013-2014 USG%), Kevin Garnett during his T-Wolves years (27.8-29.0 USG%), Kobe Bryant (31.8 Career USG%) and Dwayne Wade (32.0 Career USG%). It would seem to be an indictment as a star player to have a lower USG% than a higher one, given the names on the list.

As for assisted baskets (AST%), one has to account for a team's proficiency in completing shots off the pass which is in part demonstrated by the offensive efficiency rating (ORtg) aka a standard for measuring how good/****ty teammates are. While Melo may have a lower AST% rating compared to Blake, he's also consistently had ****tier players. For example, this season the Knicks rank 19th in this respect (104.5) and the Clippers rank 8th (108.5). The Knicks also rank 29th (90.3) in pace compared to the Clippers who rank 6th (95.7). Better scoring teammates and a quicker pace that offers more possessions equal more opportunities to assist and pad your AST%. It's as simple as that. Bottom line, you have an agenda and no gimmicky stats will validate your bull****.

The TS% difference is substantial actually. For a guy who takes about 20 shots and 7 FTs, a .025 TS% improvement is going to give about 1 more point a game. If I remember correctly, adding 1 free point per game (not a point on a new possession but a free point) adds something like 4 wins over an 82 game season.

With all due respect, I think it's a stupid ass statistic. What does it really prove or even intimate? That I should start building my team around Kyle Korver, Robin Lopez and DeAndre Jordan?

No, no one should look at TS% independently of volume but when you're comparing two high volume scorers, you can focus on just the TS%

Cool, then Wilt (54.7 TS%) and Kobe (55.5 TS%) were volume scorers for their respective eras. You think Kobe was a relatively better scorer than Wilt? The difference between the two is statistically different after all.

Are you trying to have a real conversation or just trolling? The tone sounds like the latter.
Wilt's efficiency was way above average for his generation. Kobe's is a little above average but not spectacular. I'm not sure what you're getting at. You seem extraordinarily invested in downplaying the efficiency difference between Blake and Melo. I actually didn't think the conversation would go on this long.

I'm actually trying to have a real conversation, particularly about the validity of these metrics and their ability to establish causality. People throw them about as though they are absolute in determining value and I can't help but feel that an argument centered around these "facts" is full of ****. For instance, I think TS% is nonsense when comparing a player's scoring prowess/ability to another. Guys like Russell Westbrook and a prime Kobe Bryant have inferior TS% to a guy like Blake Griffin but would you be willing to suggest that Blake is the better scorer of the three or that he is the better option to center your offensive attack around? I definitely wouldn't. People place too much stock in these "efficiency" measures IMO. Yeah, a Toyota Prius gets better gas mileage than most cars but does that mean I should use it in a street race against a Ferrari?

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

dk7th wrote:that said, a case in point is looking at respective TS% for both players. remember that this stat incorporates 2-pointers, 3-pointers, and free throws into a bundle. therefore, a player like griffin is at a disadvantage because he does not shoot the 3. and a so-called versatile scorer like melo that is supposed to be so effective going to the basket, drawing fouls, and hitting 3s should be at an advantage.

but griffin even without the 3 is at an above-average 56%TS for his career and 57% this season. as a matter of fact he has been trending upwards. melo, meanwhile is a below-average at 54.5%TS for his career with a basic flatline. he is basically the same inefficient scorer he always has been. is griffin at an advantage because he gets set up by others to finish, sort of like stoudemire used to be? yes, that is a factor since he is more of a pure power forward. is he at a disadvantage because he is a poor free throw shooter? yes he needs to improve there too. but considering that melo is regarded as an elite scorer his TS% says otherwise, while griffin, for all his limitations, is still more efficient scorer, ie not a volume shooter. to see what i mean, look at how many shots melo takes to get his points compared to griffin: melo shoots an average of 20 times a game-- that's too much for someone who scores inefficiently. meanwhile griffin takes 15.5 shots to get his points. melo has averaged 1.28 points per shot attempt while blake averages 1.35 points per shot. lebron 1.37, durant 1.42. this is quite a gap.

Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and call bull****. A player's true shooting percentage (TS%) is a means of better standardizing a player's shooting prowess, since 3 point shots are harder to hit and can skew a FG%. The fact that Melo takes more 3's has nothing to do with the metric because it is being standardized; hence the entire point of the stat. With that being said, there is only a 2.4% difference between the two. In what statistical community is that enough to yield a "significant difference"?

I'm not entirely sure what the league average is but according to this site, Melo's TS% is 65th in the league, which does not sound elite (nor does it sound below average since there are over 400 players in the league) but is still in the ballpark of other contemporaries that are highly regarded as efficient offensive players: Tony Parker (55th: 55.7 TS%), Ty Lawson (61st: 55.0 TS%), Roy Hibbert (64th: 54.8 TS%), Joe Johnson (68th: 54.5 TS%), Monta Ellis (71st: 54.1 TS%), Loul Deng (72nd: 53.8 TS%), Kyrie Irving (84th: 52.4 TS%), John Wall (89th: 52.0 TS%), Russell Westbrook (92nd: 51.8 TS%), David West (98th: 51.4 TS%) and LaMarcus Aldridge (100th: 51.1 TS%).

Given the fact that some of the people ahead of Melo on the list are Kyle Korver (2nd: 67.1 TS%), Robin Lopez (17th: 59.7 TS%) and DeAndre Jordan (20th: 59.5 TS%), I'd pipe down about this stat being indicative of a player's offensive abilities or prowess http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/player-stat/ts-percentage. Kevin Garnett, a sure-fire first ballot Hall of Famer, had a career TS% of 54.7% and I've never heard of him being considered an "inefficient scorer". WILT FUCKING CHAMBERLAIN, also had a TS% of 54.7% and I've never heard of him being considered an "inefficient scorer" http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html Meanwhile, Michael Jordan had a 56.9 TS%, so I guess that means Blake Griffin is destined to be the superior offensive player http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html

dk7th wrote:raw assists? that's too simplistic. look at the usage (USG%) for both players and then look at the assisted baskets (AST%) when each are on the floor. first off griffin's usage is a quite reasonable one at 26.5% while melo's is astronomical: 32% for the bulk of his career. meanwhile griffin's teammates get assisted around 17% of the time when he is on the floor which means he is not a ball stopper or offensive stagnator-- the ratio of usage to assisted buckets is a healthy 1.56:1 for blake as a power forward, and an unhealthy 2.13 for melo for a tweener. really anything over 1.80:1 means offensive stagnation for anyone whose usage rate is 25 and over. i mean in a perfectly balanced offense i suppose all 5 players would have a 20% usage rate, right?... so it is incumbent upon the players with higher usages to have higher assist rates for teammates if the offense is to be playing efficiently and with ball sharing and movement at its optimal.

bottom line blake is a more efficient player and a better ball mover and sharer. he is not a versatile scorer or a good free throw shooter, but i think a case can be made for saying that griffin plays within his limitations, and in a team game that has intrinsic value. plus he is young and seems to be improving, while melo is not improving and will only be getting older and slower.

Why are we looking at USG%? That has no bearing on the conversation, other than to reinforce the fact that Carmelo is a franchise caliber player and operates as such, like Paul George (28.3 2013-2014 USG%), Kevin Garnett during his T-Wolves years (27.8-29.0 USG%), Kobe Bryant (31.8 Career USG%) and Dwayne Wade (32.0 Career USG%). It would seem to be an indictment as a star player to have a lower USG% than a higher one, given the names on the list.

As for assisted baskets (AST%), one has to account for a team's proficiency in completing shots off the pass which is in part demonstrated by the offensive efficiency rating (ORtg) aka a standard for measuring how good/****ty teammates are. While Melo may have a lower AST% rating compared to Blake, he's also consistently had ****tier players. For example, this season the Knicks rank 19th in this respect (104.5) and the Clippers rank 8th (108.5). The Knicks also rank 29th (90.3) in pace compared to the Clippers who rank 6th (95.7). Better scoring teammates and a quicker pace that offers more possessions equal more opportunities to assist and pad your AST%. It's as simple as that. Bottom line, you have an agenda and no gimmicky stats will validate your bull****.

The TS% difference is substantial actually. For a guy who takes about 20 shots and 7 FTs, a .025 TS% improvement is going to give about 1 more point a game. If I remember correctly, adding 1 free point per game (not a point on a new possession but a free point) adds something like 4 wins over an 82 game season.

With all due respect, I think it's a stupid ass statistic. What does it really prove or even intimate? That I should start building my team around Kyle Korver, Robin Lopez and DeAndre Jordan?

No, no one should look at TS% independently of volume but when you're comparing two high volume scorers, you can focus on just the TS%

Cool, then Wilt (54.7 TS%) and Kobe (55.5 TS%) were volume scorers for their respective eras. You think Kobe was a relatively better scorer than Wilt? The difference between the two is statistically different after all.

Are you trying to have a real conversation or just trolling? The tone sounds like the latter.
Wilt's efficiency was way above average for his generation. Kobe's is a little above average but not spectacular. I'm not sure what you're getting at. You seem extraordinarily invested in downplaying the efficiency difference between Blake and Melo. I actually didn't think the conversation would go on this long.

I'm actually trying to have a real conversation, particularly about the validity of these metrics and their ability to establish causality. People throw them about as though they are absolute in determining value and I can't help but feel that an argument centered around these "facts" is full of ****. For instance, I think TS% is nonsense when comparing a player's scoring prowess/ability to another. Guys like Russell Westbrook and a prime Kobe Bryant have inferior TS% to a guy like Blake Griffin but would you be willing to suggest that Blake is the better scorer of the three or that he is the better option to center your offensive attack around? I definitely wouldn't. People place too much stock in these "efficiency" measures IMO. Yeah, a Toyota Prius gets better gas mileage than most cars but does that mean I should use it in a street race against a Ferrari?

I would definitely take Blake's scoring ahead of Westbrook's or Kobe's. Westbrook and Kobe will never average PPG in the 20s at well over 50% shooting. (I'd favor Westbrook and Kobe in several other parts of the game but not scoring.)

Then we'll have to agree to disagree. I value players that are more dynamic than efficient. Come playoff time it's easier to contain a guy like Griffin (who is only effective in the paint as a dunker) than a guy like Kobe (who you have to gameplan for all over the court).

yellowboy90 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

dk7th wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

dk7th wrote:that said, a case in point is looking at respective TS% for both players. remember that this stat incorporates 2-pointers, 3-pointers, and free throws into a bundle. therefore, a player like griffin is at a disadvantage because he does not shoot the 3. and a so-called versatile scorer like melo that is supposed to be so effective going to the basket, drawing fouls, and hitting 3s should be at an advantage.

but griffin even without the 3 is at an above-average 56%TS for his career and 57% this season. as a matter of fact he has been trending upwards. melo, meanwhile is a below-average at 54.5%TS for his career with a basic flatline. he is basically the same inefficient scorer he always has been. is griffin at an advantage because he gets set up by others to finish, sort of like stoudemire used to be? yes, that is a factor since he is more of a pure power forward. is he at a disadvantage because he is a poor free throw shooter? yes he needs to improve there too. but considering that melo is regarded as an elite scorer his TS% says otherwise, while griffin, for all his limitations, is still more efficient scorer, ie not a volume shooter. to see what i mean, look at how many shots melo takes to get his points compared to griffin: melo shoots an average of 20 times a game-- that's too much for someone who scores inefficiently. meanwhile griffin takes 15.5 shots to get his points. melo has averaged 1.28 points per shot attempt while blake averages 1.35 points per shot. lebron 1.37, durant 1.42. this is quite a gap.

Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and call bull****. A player's true shooting percentage (TS%) is a means of better standardizing a player's shooting prowess, since 3 point shots are harder to hit and can skew a FG%. The fact that Melo takes more 3's has nothing to do with the metric because it is being standardized; hence the entire point of the stat. With that being said, there is only a 2.4% difference between the two. In what statistical community is that enough to yield a "significant difference"?

I'm not entirely sure what the league average is but according to this site, Melo's TS% is 65th in the league, which does not sound elite (nor does it sound below average since there are over 400 players in the league) but is still in the ballpark of other contemporaries that are highly regarded as efficient offensive players: Tony Parker (55th: 55.7 TS%), Ty Lawson (61st: 55.0 TS%), Roy Hibbert (64th: 54.8 TS%), Joe Johnson (68th: 54.5 TS%), Monta Ellis (71st: 54.1 TS%), Loul Deng (72nd: 53.8 TS%), Kyrie Irving (84th: 52.4 TS%), John Wall (89th: 52.0 TS%), Russell Westbrook (92nd: 51.8 TS%), David West (98th: 51.4 TS%) and LaMarcus Aldridge (100th: 51.1 TS%).

Given the fact that some of the people ahead of Melo on the list are Kyle Korver (2nd: 67.1 TS%), Robin Lopez (17th: 59.7 TS%) and DeAndre Jordan (20th: 59.5 TS%), I'd pipe down about this stat being indicative of a player's offensive abilities or prowess http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/player-stat/ts-percentage. Kevin Garnett, a sure-fire first ballot Hall of Famer, had a career TS% of 54.7% and I've never heard of him being considered an "inefficient scorer". WILT FUCKING CHAMBERLAIN, also had a TS% of 54.7% and I've never heard of him being considered an "inefficient scorer" http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html Meanwhile, Michael Jordan had a 56.9 TS%, so I guess that means Blake Griffin is destined to be the superior offensive player http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html

dk7th wrote:raw assists? that's too simplistic. look at the usage (USG%) for both players and then look at the assisted baskets (AST%) when each are on the floor. first off griffin's usage is a quite reasonable one at 26.5% while melo's is astronomical: 32% for the bulk of his career. meanwhile griffin's teammates get assisted around 17% of the time when he is on the floor which means he is not a ball stopper or offensive stagnator-- the ratio of usage to assisted buckets is a healthy 1.56:1 for blake as a power forward, and an unhealthy 2.13 for melo for a tweener. really anything over 1.80:1 means offensive stagnation for anyone whose usage rate is 25 and over. i mean in a perfectly balanced offense i suppose all 5 players would have a 20% usage rate, right?... so it is incumbent upon the players with higher usages to have higher assist rates for teammates if the offense is to be playing efficiently and with ball sharing and movement at its optimal.

bottom line blake is a more efficient player and a better ball mover and sharer. he is not a versatile scorer or a good free throw shooter, but i think a case can be made for saying that griffin plays within his limitations, and in a team game that has intrinsic value. plus he is young and seems to be improving, while melo is not improving and will only be getting older and slower.

Why are we looking at USG%? That has no bearing on the conversation, other than to reinforce the fact that Carmelo is a franchise caliber player and operates as such, like Paul George (28.3 2013-2014 USG%), Kevin Garnett during his T-Wolves years (27.8-29.0 USG%), Kobe Bryant (31.8 Career USG%) and Dwayne Wade (32.0 Career USG%). It would seem to be an indictment as a star player to have a lower USG% than a higher one, given the names on the list.

As for assisted baskets (AST%), one has to account for a team's proficiency in completing shots off the pass which is in part demonstrated by the offensive efficiency rating (ORtg) aka a standard for measuring how good/****ty teammates are. While Melo may have a lower AST% rating compared to Blake, he's also consistently had ****tier players. For example, this season the Knicks rank 19th in this respect (104.5) and the Clippers rank 8th (108.5). The Knicks also rank 29th (90.3) in pace compared to the Clippers who rank 6th (95.7). Better scoring teammates and a quicker pace that offers more possessions equal more opportunities to assist and pad your AST%. It's as simple as that. Bottom line, you have an agenda and no gimmicky stats will validate your bull****.

you shouldn't be criticizing what you don't understand. the nuances in my argument simply elude you. first of all, the players you cite starting with korver are in effect finishers with very low usage rates. korver is a three point specialist who finishes possessions and whose usage rate is merely in the low teens. sight unseen the same goes for jordan, lopez.

garnett, like griffin, does not use the 3 point shot so he is at a relative disadvantage when looking at TS%. chamberlain never took a shot from more than 10 feet from the basket. mike jordan never took more than 3 3 pointers per game and averaged less than two per game for his career.

my opinion is that the higher the usage rate the more responsible a player is for keeping the ball moving, which is represented by the assist rate. the closer that ratio is to 1:1 [usg:ast] the better that player is at preventing stagnation and promoting flow. look at the numbers for paul george, wade, jordan, even bryant. you will see that they are far more deserving of the ball than anthony is.

i could go on eviscerating your response but i will spare others the time and energy and leave you in your state of ignorant certitude.

Dude, on your best day you couldn't build an argument that could allude me. I don't blame a man for having dreams though. If you didn't, what else would you have?

As for TS%, the entire purpose of the metric is to account for the inherent difficulty in taking shots beyond the arch with the intent of developing a more dynamic understanding for evaluating a players shooting prowess. To dumb things down for you, the entire ****ing purpose of it is to create an incentive for 3 point shooters that conversely creates a "relative disadvantage" for non-3 point shooters like Griffin and Garnett. So thank you for pointing out the obvious. The cherry on top here is the fact that you use this thing, which you clearly don't understand, to criticize a player unjustly and draw illogical conclusions. The fact is that if Melo is inefficient, so are many of the greatest offensive players to play the game, like Wilt Chamberlain and Kevin Garnett who have identical TS%. Clearly this metric alone is not solely indicative of a players value offensively, so stop acting as though it is the end all/be all in this conversation.

And still, you continue to manipulate these stats and figures to try to justify your nonsense. Yes, Melo has a high USG% but is it unusually high for a franchise player? No. Is his Assists% low? Sure but you fail to acknowledge the discrepancy in talent that Melo had/has compared to his contemporaries, which would adversely affect these figures for him. With Griffin in particularly, I used the pace of the game and offensive rating to support this fact. You ignored it and then just regurgitated the exact same thing I already addressed. Reading comprehension is essential if this conversation is to continue. Until then, go **** yourself the next time you think about getting lippy with me.

Well to add to your point between Blake and Melo for this year Blake touches the ball more but is slightly behind Melo in AST opportunities(.2) and Melo is slightly behind Melo in passes per game, 1.6. Blake is really 1.2 touches behind Melo in front court touches and avg .27 pts per touch and .42 per frontcourt touch whole Melo avg .38 pts per touch and .48 pts per touch in the front court.

Also, Melo travels 2.5 miles per game at an avg speed of 3.8 while Griffin travels 2.4 miles per game at an avg speed of 3.9.

I am not a mode or anything but is it really necessary to use such language? Its just opinions about players who play a game. Is it really that serious?

You're right dude. I have a temper and competitive tendencies that get the best of me at times. I have also been on edge all day from some bad news I got and I suppose that certainly didn't help matters. I tried editing it as best I could but it seemed like you responded before the changes were made official. My apologies to any and all that read the original, unedited post.

P.S., thanks for the assist with those stats.

H1AND1 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:

tkf wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Dagger wrote:But I thought Griffin was so good he doesn't need cp3! Hogwash, just as I said, this overrated dunker will be exposed now that cp3 is out. Without the best pg in the league feeding this dude he's a good player at best, not a star. I do not want this dude on the Knicks, talk about one-dimensional!

You know what's really comical to me? Blake Griffin, according to the Melo-haters, is suppose to be this multi-dimensional player that affects the game in so many different ways. Taking points out of the equation, Blake Griffin averages 11rpg, 3apg, 1spg and 0.7bpg in 37mpg. Meanwhile Melo averages 9rpg, 2.8apg, 1spg and 0.7bpg in 39.3mpg. When you ponder all of that, bare in mind that Melo gives up 20lbs, 2 inches and otherworldly leaping ability to Blake. Evidently these huge physical advantages can only create a 2rpg, 0.2apg difference between both players and evidently that is the difference between being a Renaissance Man (Griffin) and one-dimensional (Melo). You gotta love irrational hate and bias sometimes, lol.

This is just pathetic.. you resort to attacking blake Griffin to defend this bum carmelo... I don't know why? the clippers don't want anything to do with melo.. Blake is a great player.. Blake not only has better numbers but he is not even close to reaching his prime.. If you are pissed that people are bashing carmelo, bashing blake does not make it go away...

tkf: Let me preface this by saying that my opinion on Melo's basketball abilities aligns much closer to posters like you, Bonn, guns, dk7th, etc. I don't necessarily hate the guy personally but am not a fan of his game and think volume scoring is vastly overrated.

However, I would honestly be interested in your thoughts (or any other posters for that matter who is versed in advanced metrics)on the numbers NardDog posted comparing Blake to Carmelo. I am HORRIBLE at math, stats, all that stuff in general but I have faith in those basketball stats gurus like Morey, etc who do understand and evaluate this stuff and generally agree with their opinions.

Basically, if someone on here who is a stats person could address the numbers NardDog posted to compare the two id like to see a statistically based rebuttal instead of "don't bash Blake to defend Carmelo". I know for one you could say Blake is much younger and can improve. But what else? Honest question.

I also agree with GustavBahler that most fans wouldn't mind seeing Melo be traded if we got something halfway decent in return. Love him or hate him, signing one dimensional players on the wrong side of 30 to 120+ mil contracts isn't smart. Allan Houston, AHEM, cough, Allan Houston.

it's difficult to compare the two even with advanced stats because they occupy different parts of the floor, except when melo is playing the 4. but most of his career he played the 3. he is a tweener which in my opinion is part of melo's problem.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/griffbl01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthoca01.html

that said, a case in point is looking at respective TS% for both players. remember that this stat incorporates 2-pointers, 3-pointers, and free throws into a bundle. therefore, a player like griffin is at a disadvantage because he does not shoot the 3. and a so-called versatile scorer like melo that is supposed to be so effective going to the basket, drawing fouls, and hitting 3s should be at an advantage.

but griffin even without the 3 is at an above-average 56%TS for his career and 57% this season. as a matter of fact he has been trending upwards. melo, meanwhile is a below-average at 54.5%TS for his career with a basic flatline. he is basically the same inefficient scorer he always has been. is griffin at an advantage because he gets set up by others to finish, sort of like stoudemire used to be? yes, that is a factor since he is more of a pure power forward. is he at a disadvantage because he is a poor free throw shooter? yes he needs to improve there too. but considering that melo is regarded as an elite scorer his TS% says otherwise, while griffin, for all his limitations, is still more efficient scorer, ie not a volume shooter. to see what i mean, look at how many shots melo takes to get his points compared to griffin: melo shoots an average of 20 times a game-- that's too much for someone who scores inefficiently. meanwhile griffin takes 15.5 shots to get his points. melo has averaged 1.28 points per shot attempt while blake averages 1.35 points per shot. lebron 1.37, durant 1.42. this is quite a gap.

raw assists? that's too simplistic. look at the usage (USG%) for both players and then look at the assisted baskets (AST%) when each are on the floor. first off griffin's usage is a quite reasonable one at 26.5% while melo's is astronomical: 32% for the bulk of his career. meanwhile griffin's teammates get assisted around 17% of the time when he is on the floor which means he is not a ball stopper or offensive stagnator-- the ratio of usage to assisted buckets is a healthy 1.56:1 for blake as a power forward, and an unhealthy 2.13 for melo for a tweener. really anything over 1.80:1 means offensive stagnation for anyone whose usage rate is 25 and over. i mean in a perfectly balanced offense i suppose all 5 players would have a 20% usage rate, right?... so it is incumbent upon the players with higher usages to have higher assist rates for teammates if the offense is to be playing efficiently and with ball sharing and movement at its optimal.

bottom line blake is a more efficient player and a better ball mover and sharer. he is not a versatile scorer or a good free throw shooter, but i think a case can be made for saying that griffin plays within his limitations, and in a team game that has intrinsic value. plus he is young and seems to be improving, while melo is not improving and will only be getting older and slower.

Great post, thank you very much for taking the time to type that out.

you are welcome! good questions are worthy of pondering and subsequent research.

i will add here for your benefit... and others who find these matters anathema: if you complain about melo not having good enough teammates, lets remember he is largely responsible for the level of teammates he is stuck with and apparently ready to abandon. in other words he has created a self-fulfilling prophecy in which he is forced to "carry a team." i think he actually might prefer things that way so he can feed his hero ball tendencies.

i think almost every team would be crazy to pick up carmelo anthony in a trade and crazy to offer him any more than 14 million a year. but guess what the knicks did and we have to endure this hot mess.

here's what melo needs to do:

take no more than 16.5 shots per game
reduce usage rate to around 27%
raise his assist rate to around 19%
raise his TS% to around 58%

this would be the mark of a winning, positive-sum player on offense.