NardDogNation wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

franco12 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

franco12 wrote:what am I missing that people are not crazy about Blake Griffin? If we end up with Griffin for Melo and whatever added parts (Chandler, etc), then we've robbed the Clippers. He has 4 years of upside. Melo is what he is, and probably has 1-2 more peak seasons.

This is the kind of trade the knicks would make - trading younger/draft pick for flawed star.

I doubt this has any chance of happening.

As I've told you before, Griffin is good but he can't carry a team on either end and has no guarantee for improvement (see Rasheed Wallace, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, etc.). Melo, on the other hand, can carry a team, well enough. This is the key difference.

You mean Melo can carry a team, like this year?

You know that there are other seasons that existed before this one, right?

Team records are a TEAM accomplishment, unless there is a clear sample to reflect on and off court.

Melo has always played on good teams.

Ironically Blake has only had one bad team...his first year as a rook.

but to be fair, can one year wipe out that melo cant carry a team? If not, then you cant say Blake cant.

Melo, in his first season, flipped a 19 win Nuggets roster into a 43 win team. I think he had a much bigger part in their success than you are letting on. Yes, he eventually got some good pieces (e.g. a grossly overpriced and overrated Kenyon Martin, a healthy Nene, Billups, Aaron Afflalo, George Karl) but that was years after the fact and aside from Billups, none of those guys were game changers (aka guys that significantly change the nature of how a team gameplans against you) IMO . More importantly, at no point in his career did Melo ever play with anyone that was of a CP3 caliber. Griffin benefits from that every night and he still can't create shots for himself in the playoffs. Flip Griffin and Melo and the Clippers become juggernauts.

On a side, I disagree about team records being a team accomplishment, at least in the regular season. There have been guys so good that they got their teams into the playoffs single-handedly. LeBron did it with all those subpar Cavs teams. People forget that they kept their 2009-2010 supporting cast and the same team, sans LeBron, won only 19 games the following season. That says a lot about what he was working with. The same can be said with Kobe Bryant during the 2005-2006 with bum ass Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm and Ira Newble as rotation players. There is a reason why those guys are first ballot Hall of Famers and that's because they transcend universal truth's.

That 19 win team wasnt the same team Melo inherited, there was quite a bit of a talent infusion that year...a totally revamped roster, which in the following year even upgraded the coaching.

But none of that matters, better teams should play better, and naturally the best player gets credit for such.

But there is no proof at all that Blake cannot carry a team, but even if he cant he isnt paid as one either.

The playing with CP3 is a farce imo, Blake has produced no matter whom he's played with.

Most of that "revamping" occurred on the back end of that roster. The key pieces (e.g. Marcus Camby, Nene, Chris Andersen, Nikola Tskvisigjlslbs (I know I misspelled his name)) were all there from the year before. The only major change was Andre Miller at point, that despite being a personal favorite of mine, was no star or guarantor of success. Remember that he hadn't even made the playoffs up until that point in his career and had been associated with some of the league's worse.

And I think there definitely is emerging evidence that Blake can't carry a team. I think his first season is inadmissible because no rookie should be expected to carry that burden. Still, when you look at the Clippers record without Paul, it ain't pretty especially when you consider the competition they had been playing. It's been a popular topic of conversation, some of which you could read here http://www.clipsnation.com/2013/2/14/3989272/the-value-of-chris-paul-la-clippers-lebron-james-kevin-durant-mvp

Even with CP3, Griffin goes through stretches of being a non-entity. Despite 4 seasons in the league, he's still very much the same player and has yet to commit a post move to memory, which Charles Barkley and Shaq comment on constantly. He puts up nice numbers but there have been players in the past that have and not translated to wins, despite having good players around them e.g. Al Jefferson, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Zach Randolph(pre-Memphis), etc.

Ultimately you need talent, and both those player are talent, good talent worth of being built around.

Blake isnt a post player, and former players have biases that has to be factored in as well....shaq calls lopez the best center in the nba because he doesnt like dwight.

New York fans eat this crap up

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

franco12 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

franco12 wrote:what am I missing that people are not crazy about Blake Griffin? If we end up with Griffin for Melo and whatever added parts (Chandler, etc), then we've robbed the Clippers. He has 4 years of upside. Melo is what he is, and probably has 1-2 more peak seasons.

This is the kind of trade the knicks would make - trading younger/draft pick for flawed star.

I doubt this has any chance of happening.

As I've told you before, Griffin is good but he can't carry a team on either end and has no guarantee for improvement (see Rasheed Wallace, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, etc.). Melo, on the other hand, can carry a team, well enough. This is the key difference.

You mean Melo can carry a team, like this year?

You know that there are other seasons that existed before this one, right?

Team records are a TEAM accomplishment, unless there is a clear sample to reflect on and off court.

Melo has always played on good teams.

Ironically Blake has only had one bad team...his first year as a rook.

but to be fair, can one year wipe out that melo cant carry a team? If not, then you cant say Blake cant.

Melo, in his first season, flipped a 19 win Nuggets roster into a 43 win team. I think he had a much bigger part in their success than you are letting on. Yes, he eventually got some good pieces (e.g. a grossly overpriced and overrated Kenyon Martin, a healthy Nene, Billups, Aaron Afflalo, George Karl) but that was years after the fact and aside from Billups, none of those guys were game changers (aka guys that significantly change the nature of how a team gameplans against you) IMO . More importantly, at no point in his career did Melo ever play with anyone that was of a CP3 caliber. Griffin benefits from that every night and he still can't create shots for himself in the playoffs. Flip Griffin and Melo and the Clippers become juggernauts.

On a side, I disagree about team records being a team accomplishment, at least in the regular season. There have been guys so good that they got their teams into the playoffs single-handedly. LeBron did it with all those subpar Cavs teams. People forget that they kept their 2009-2010 supporting cast and the same team, sans LeBron, won only 19 games the following season. That says a lot about what he was working with. The same can be said with Kobe Bryant during the 2005-2006 with bum ass Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm and Ira Newble as rotation players. There is a reason why those guys are first ballot Hall of Famers and that's because they transcend universal truth's.

That 19 win team wasnt the same team Melo inherited, there was quite a bit of a talent infusion that year...a totally revamped roster, which in the following year even upgraded the coaching.

But none of that matters, better teams should play better, and naturally the best player gets credit for such.

But there is no proof at all that Blake cannot carry a team, but even if he cant he isnt paid as one either.

The playing with CP3 is a farce imo, Blake has produced no matter whom he's played with.

Most of that "revamping" occurred on the back end of that roster. The key pieces (e.g. Marcus Camby, Nene, Chris Andersen, Nikola Tskvisigjlslbs (I know I misspelled his name)) were all there from the year before. The only major change was Andre Miller at point, that despite being a personal favorite of mine, was no star or guarantor of success. Remember that he hadn't even made the playoffs up until that point in his career and had been associated with some of the league's worse.

And I think there definitely is emerging evidence that Blake can't carry a team. I think his first season is inadmissible because no rookie should be expected to carry that burden. Still, when you look at the Clippers record without Paul, it ain't pretty especially when you consider the competition they had been playing. It's been a popular topic of conversation, some of which you could read here http://www.clipsnation.com/2013/2/14/3989272/the-value-of-chris-paul-la-clippers-lebron-james-kevin-durant-mvp

Even with CP3, Griffin goes through stretches of being a non-entity. Despite 4 seasons in the league, he's still very much the same player and has yet to commit a post move to memory, which Charles Barkley and Shaq comment on constantly. He puts up nice numbers but there have been players in the past that have and not translated to wins, despite having good players around them e.g. Al Jefferson, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Zach Randolph(pre-Memphis), etc.

By this analogy Chris Paul cant carry a team either, where has a chris paul led team gone? nowhere.

Ultimately you need talent, and both those player are talent, good talent worth of being built around.

Blake isnt a post player, and former players have biases that has to be factored in as well....shaq calls lopez the best center in the nba because he doesnt like dwight.

CP3 helped carry his team to the playoffs, year after year, and lost because he had inferior talent to teams that often went to the Western Conference Finals or better. Blake has yet to show he can lead the Clippers in CP3's absence, if that involves injury or CP3 taking a rest during games. I'm just not sold on him being anything more than a talented guy, who puts up empty numbers like Chris Bosh. That certainly has it's place on a winning team but it can't be the 2nd best player on the team.

As for Barkley and Shaq, I agree with you but think that they are spot on now. I'm not expecting Griffin to be a post sevante but as a max salaried player, you'd expect for him to have the basics squared away. On a side, I do think Brook Lopez is better than Dwight Howard overall for the same exact reason. Dwight's been in the league so long and still allows himself to be a liability. Lopez is none of that and has only had the misfortune of poor health.

gunsnewing wrote:This idea of a player needing to carry a team is beyond overrated and why we are where we are today

New York fans eat this crap up

The ability to carry a team is rare but does exist. It's why people say that stars are made in the playoffs. Why? Because teams by that point know exactly what you run and tailor their defense to stop it in 7 games or less. Average players, for the most part, get neutralized, which shifts the burden to the team's best players to score and get other guys easier shots. The really good teams share the burden with 3 guys (e.g. the Spurs with Duncan, Ginobli and Parker or the Heat with LeBron, Wade and Bosh). The team's that will never beat them, don't. The Clippers are one of those teams that will never beat them because when things get heavy, Griffin can't create shots for himself or others, which squarely puts the responsibility on CP3 who can be limited by his physical shortcomings.

gunsnewing wrote:Melo has been awful in the playoffs as a knick. Shooting 40%

You can carry your team for stretches but you still need help

Secondary scores, outside shooters, leadership rebounding and defense

Again, that burden is to be shared by multiple players. Melo doesn't have that on this team. If he did though, he could definitely carry his fair share as do guys like LeBron, Duncan, Wade, Parker, etc. A guy like Griffin shirks that responsibility, deferring to a 6ft player instead.

He wants out, he would only stay if we overpay for him, making him a Allan Houston or/and Joe Johnson 2.0 but with todays CBA (making it even worst)

As he turns 30, he will likely break down on his next contract as his body has been taking much abuse, overused in Woodson's ISO SYSTEM and leading in minutes as well, and as his physical abilities decline, his lack of BBQ, inability to adapt and sacrifice for the better of the team, unwillingness to play TEAM BALL, and attitude/drama will be multiplied by his selfish attitude, becoming the next Starbury but would he even care or would he follow the route of Eddy Curry, where they got their money and contract already

I wouldn't say it is impossible for him to be an important piece on a contender, just not nearly at the price we payed for him and never here in NYK with our lack of draft picks, youth, asset's, cap space, and especially is he is unwilling to take a 1year paycut in order to recruit talent to NYK

He will do what is best for his career and family, as he should, just like he did when he smiled his way from Denver to NYK

MS wrote:I actually like the idea of the Melo and Chandler for Griffin and Deandre if we can also secure a pick.

We aren't going anywhere and both of those players are very tradeable. very few teams win in this league and even fewer have a player that everyone wants to see. That's what Blake gives you.

So we go uptemo with Felton, Shump, THJR, Blake and Deandre if a deal comes up where we can acquire additional picks and begin to add space why not.

the clippers are not interested in trading blake, but why would they give a pick if so.. they are giving up the most talent and younger talent..

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I'm pretty sure we'd have to give them picks in this kind of trade

Nah, Clips are also motivated by the fact that they're negotiating their new tv deal, and there was an article saying their disgrace of an owner might think the tv people will pay more for CP3 and Melo (Melo is more popular than Griffin, regardless of what you think of him). I think they would be slightly better with Melo than Griffin.

Anyways, likely the deal would be Tyson as well as Melo for Blake and deAndre Jordan- definitely would make the Clips better short term.

So I suppose would people trade Melo for Griffin (I wouldn't- I hate Griffin and think he will stink in NY without a PG),

Or

Would you trade Tyson and Melo for Griffin and DeAndre Jordan? I don't like either of those guys, but at least Jordans deal expires same time as Tysons. Still I wonder if we could get more for Tyson individually (a first rounder or two). Or does Jordan have more trade value next season (he's worse than Tyson, but he is younger). Hmmm...

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I'm pretty sure we'd have to give them picks in this kind of trade

Nah, Clips are also motivated by the fact that they're negotiating their new tv deal, and there was an article saying their disgrace of an owner might think the tv people will pay more for CP3 and Melo (Melo is more popular than Griffin, regardless of what you think of him). I think they would be slightly better with Melo than Griffin.

Anyways, likely the deal would be Tyson as well as Melo for Blake and deAndre Jordan- definitely would make the Clips better short term.

So I suppose would people trade Melo for Griffin (I wouldn't- I hate Griffin and think he will stink in NY without a PG),

Or

Would you trade Tyson and Melo for Griffin and DeAndre Jordan? I don't like either of those guys, but at least Jordans deal expires same time as Tysons. Still I wonder if we could get more for Tyson individually (a first rounder or two). Or does Jordan have more trade value next season (he's worse than Tyson, but he is younger). Hmmm...

I thought their owner (or maybe it was their GM) already said he'd never do an even Melo-Griffin swap

I hate to break it to you Bonn1997, but sometimes owners and GM's lie

They often lie about whether a coach is in trouble or a player is on the market but it's usually not regarding specific details of a trade.