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This SI article sums up the state of Melo and the Knicks well
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Bonn1997
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11/25/2013  11:53 AM
For the record, we took 81.0 shots a game last post-season and OKC took 81.6. At least look this stuff up before generating ridiculous theories.
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NardDogNation
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11/25/2013  12:01 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
arkrud wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:If Melo were on a championship team, I'd envision him taking very, very few mid range shots. He just doesn't hit a high enough % of them. He'd mostly take 3s and shots near the rim - (both from driving and from posting up). I could see him averaging around 18 PPG on 12 shots a game if he wanted to.

A more capable supporting cast, should help him get better looks and higher percentage shots in the process. That article was right in pointing out how abysmal our roster is at the moment.

He should be supporting cast himself... then he has a chance to get a chip.

That's nonsense. Kevin Durant shot 42% without Russell Westbrook last year. That is a prime example that shows that the team makes the star as much as the star makes the team. Why should we think that Melo can exempt himself from a fact that every star/champion has been beholden to?


Yeah, and he averaged close to a triple double

He averaged 30ppg, 9rpg and 6apg during the playoffs which isn't a farcry from what Melo did. And even without Westbrook, his guys are better than Melo's.

How did he manage to average 6 assists a game when his teammates shot below 40%?

Volume shots.


What does that mean?

OKC gets a lot of shots up because of the pace they play it. Even though they're shooting 40%, there are enough shots made to get a decent number of assists especially if you are the primary ballhandler.

So that explains a 6 to 1 ratio between Durant's and Melo's assists last post-season? OKC is just taking six times as many shots a game as the Knicks are?!

Melo was actually averaging 2.8 apg during the playoffs and again, had an inferior supporting cast. Besides, you're nitpicking at this point because I've never suggested that Melo is better than Durant; merely that they are of a similar class. The point I've been making is that teams make a star as much as a star makes a team, which was reflected in Durant's statline sans Westbrook. Why you are so adamant to ignore that and the dozens of other examples throughout basketball history is beyond me.

NardDogNation
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11/25/2013  12:04 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/25/2013  12:09 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:For the record, we took 81.0 shots a game last post-season and OKC took 81.6. At least look this stuff up before generating ridiculous theories.

You've mentioned Chauncey Billups as a "top 5 MVP" candidate during the 2008-2009 season (didn't even get a vote), Kevin Durant as averaging a triple double in the playoffs (not even close) and Melo as averaging 1apg during the same postseason (despite averaging 3 times more than that on a team that couldn't hit shots). My facts have been fine.

81.0 shots and 81.6 shots do not tell the entire story. The quality of the shots and a team's ability to knock them down are essential. When you have guys like JR Smith missing wide open shots (after round 1, game 4), Raymond Felton being a virtual no show and an offensive non-entity like Tyson Chandler, it's hard to get assists and especially hard to avoid double/triple teams.

dk7th
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11/25/2013  1:06 PM
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:this piece is incoherent garbage. awful. is he getting paid?!?
Not sure why you would say that. Do you think Melo and the Knicks don't succeed in a three star system where Melo is the number 2 guy? Do you disagree with the point that guys mature and become more of a team player as they get older and understand that they may need to change their game to compliment other stars to win? If so I am going to say that I am leaning towards Doc Rivers opinion based on his knowledge of the game as a player and a coach.

assuming everything you read here is true then the conclusion is that melo is a greedy fool for coming to new york to be numero uno. he is also being intellectually dishonest when he uses empty calorie statistics to support his opinion on the evaluation of players mentioned. melo has value but the price paid in salary and assets was far more than whatever value he brings.


1) One, how do you read this and conclude that Melo is a greedy fool for coming to New York? Was Stat a greedy fool for coming to NY and providing exactly one 1/2 of a max contract regular season?

2) And exactly what wholesome, nutritous statistics would you provide to offset these:

The Knicks gave up a lot of replaceable role players to acquire Anthony:
• Danilo Gallinari, who has averaged 15.5 points and shot 41.6 percent from the field in 128 games with the Nuggets. He sustained a torn ACL last April.
• Raymond Felton, who is back with the Knicks after disappointing seasons with the Nuggets and Trail Blazers.
• Wilson Chandler, who has averaged 12.3 points in 77 games with Denver.
• Timofey Mozgov, the "deal-breaker," who has been DNP for more than 40 percent of his games as a Nugget, and has averaged 4.7 points in 13 minutes when he has played.
• Eddy Curry, who has played 108 minutes since the trade.
• Anthony Randolph, who has averaged 6.9 points with two teams since the trade.
• Two second-round picks that turned into Quincy Miller and Romero Osby, who between them have played a total of 27 NBA minutes.

A first-round pick in the 2014 draft, which may turn out to be the most valuable piece surrendered by New York.
Not only did the Knicks receive Anthony, but they also acquired Chauncey Billups, whose contract (via amnesty) enabled them to land Tyson Chandler. So they were able to exchange those role players (whose value had suddenly increased thanks to coach Mike D'Antoni's offensive system) for one of the NBA's most prolific scorers and a championship center.

And don't forget, while you type your response, keep saying "57 regular season wins and never out of the first round".

first i don't compare apples to oranges. say what you wish about stoudemire but he came as a free agent and that means it was just dolan's money. moreover, dolan-- beyond the tacit mandate of the league to clean up his and isiah's mess by bringing in walsh-- drives the agenda for this team. a courageous, uncynical owner would have foregone the two-star approach and built patiently until a better situation came along. he had the option to do so but like most of the knick fanbase, he is an impatient dullard that prizes entertainment over winning.

building a winner requires patience and shrewdness. he lacks both but deep pockets keep you in the game. he is like a bad poker player who keeps replenishing his chips even if he is losing because he is willing to pay for being amused even as he is losing.

second, the writer is missing the obvious: the game has passed carmelo anthony by. it's a new era where efficiency is prized over volume and defense is in higher demand than ever. his analysis is therefore misleading let alone lazy.

instead of providing stability the roster has been in constant turmoil, much of it having to do with how difficult carmelo anthony is to play with, let alone build around.

So Stat was a humble, ungreedy soul who just took stupid Dolan's money. And promptly did sheehit for 3.5 out of 4 years. Compared to Melo's apples. Yes, I see your logic there.

Yes, and your incessant whining about efficiency and game passing and owner stupidity has a tremendous amount to do with the value of the pieces of oranges we gave away to get Carmelo, the greedy fool.

why are constantly peevish and uncivil? stoudemire got max money not because he was greedy but because dolan was desperate to get a name in new york city and stoudemire was in the right place at the right time. you can make a case for saying that we gave up only lee i suppose.

and nobody feels stat is a franchise talent, do they? so while dolan felt it necessary to overpay for damaged goods how does that translate to stoudemire being either humble or greedy? i liked the team we had starting out in 2010-2011 but i did not like felton much at all and i thought stat was too selfish and limited anyway. so he was a number two guy who got max money but did not cost the knicks human assets. had melo done the same thing that would have been acceptable.

if anything i have to believe that stoudemire was humiliated in the wake of the melo deal. and i felt that once he was paired with a real point guard he would have thrived. instead we acquire a player who is essentially redundant and stoudemire gets shoved aside and becomes immediately irrelevant. much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
jrodmc
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11/25/2013  1:47 PM
dk7th wrote:
why are constantly peevish and uncivil?

Is it possible for you to just answer the two questions this comment raises?

dk7th wrote:assuming everything you read here is true then the conclusion is that melo is a greedy fool for coming to new york to be numero uno. he is also being intellectually dishonest when he uses empty calorie statistics to support his opinion on the evaluation of players mentioned. melo has value but the price paid in salary and assets was far more than whatever value he brings.

1) please provide meaningful stats to disprove the value the author assigned to the human assets that were used to get Melo.

2) given that you have not done (and most likely cannot do) #1, explain how Melo is a greedy fool for coming to NYC.

Bonn1997
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11/25/2013  2:26 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/25/2013  2:30 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
arkrud wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:If Melo were on a championship team, I'd envision him taking very, very few mid range shots. He just doesn't hit a high enough % of them. He'd mostly take 3s and shots near the rim - (both from driving and from posting up). I could see him averaging around 18 PPG on 12 shots a game if he wanted to.

A more capable supporting cast, should help him get better looks and higher percentage shots in the process. That article was right in pointing out how abysmal our roster is at the moment.

He should be supporting cast himself... then he has a chance to get a chip.

That's nonsense. Kevin Durant shot 42% without Russell Westbrook last year. That is a prime example that shows that the team makes the star as much as the star makes the team. Why should we think that Melo can exempt himself from a fact that every star/champion has been beholden to?


Yeah, and he averaged close to a triple double

He averaged 30ppg, 9rpg and 6apg during the playoffs which isn't a farcry from what Melo did. And even without Westbrook, his guys are better than Melo's.

How did he manage to average 6 assists a game when his teammates shot below 40%?

Volume shots.


What does that mean?

OKC gets a lot of shots up because of the pace they play it. Even though they're shooting 40%, there are enough shots made to get a decent number of assists especially if you are the primary ballhandler.

So that explains a 6 to 1 ratio between Durant's and Melo's assists last post-season? OKC is just taking six times as many shots a game as the Knicks are?!

Melo was actually averaging 2.8 apg during the playoffs and again, had an inferior supporting cast.


Again, Melo's supporting cast had a higher FG% than Durant's. And Melo averaged 1.6 assists a game last post-season.
Bonn1997
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11/25/2013  2:29 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/25/2013  2:31 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:For the record, we took 81.0 shots a game last post-season and OKC took 81.6. At least look this stuff up before generating ridiculous theories.

You've mentioned Chauncey Billups as a "top 5 MVP" candidate during the 2008-2009 season (didn't even get a vote), Kevin Durant as averaging a triple double in the playoffs (not even close) and Melo as averaging 1apg during the same postseason (despite averaging 3 times more than that on a team that couldn't hit shots). My facts have been fine.

81.0 shots and 81.6 shots do not tell the entire story. The quality of the shots and a team's ability to knock them down are essential. When you have guys like JR Smith missing wide open shots (after round 1, game 4), Raymond Felton being a virtual no show and an offensive non-entity like Tyson Chandler, it's hard to get assists and especially hard to avoid double/triple teams.


First of all, I said Durant averaged close to a triple double in the 2nd round of the playoffs (and it was 9 rbs, 7 assists). You ignored both bold points.
Second, Billups really was 6th in MVP voting in 2008-9 even if you won't admit it.
Third, every argument you've made has used fictional data.
blkexec
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11/25/2013  2:36 PM
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:this piece is incoherent garbage. awful. is he getting paid?!?
Not sure why you would say that. Do you think Melo and the Knicks don't succeed in a three star system where Melo is the number 2 guy? Do you disagree with the point that guys mature and become more of a team player as they get older and understand that they may need to change their game to compliment other stars to win? If so I am going to say that I am leaning towards Doc Rivers opinion based on his knowledge of the game as a player and a coach.

assuming everything you read here is true then the conclusion is that melo is a greedy fool for coming to new york to be numero uno. he is also being intellectually dishonest when he uses empty calorie statistics to support his opinion on the evaluation of players mentioned. melo has value but the price paid in salary and assets was far more than whatever value he brings.


1) One, how do you read this and conclude that Melo is a greedy fool for coming to New York? Was Stat a greedy fool for coming to NY and providing exactly one 1/2 of a max contract regular season?

2) And exactly what wholesome, nutritous statistics would you provide to offset these:

The Knicks gave up a lot of replaceable role players to acquire Anthony:
• Danilo Gallinari, who has averaged 15.5 points and shot 41.6 percent from the field in 128 games with the Nuggets. He sustained a torn ACL last April.
• Raymond Felton, who is back with the Knicks after disappointing seasons with the Nuggets and Trail Blazers.
• Wilson Chandler, who has averaged 12.3 points in 77 games with Denver.
• Timofey Mozgov, the "deal-breaker," who has been DNP for more than 40 percent of his games as a Nugget, and has averaged 4.7 points in 13 minutes when he has played.
• Eddy Curry, who has played 108 minutes since the trade.
• Anthony Randolph, who has averaged 6.9 points with two teams since the trade.
• Two second-round picks that turned into Quincy Miller and Romero Osby, who between them have played a total of 27 NBA minutes.

A first-round pick in the 2014 draft, which may turn out to be the most valuable piece surrendered by New York.
Not only did the Knicks receive Anthony, but they also acquired Chauncey Billups, whose contract (via amnesty) enabled them to land Tyson Chandler. So they were able to exchange those role players (whose value had suddenly increased thanks to coach Mike D'Antoni's offensive system) for one of the NBA's most prolific scorers and a championship center.

And don't forget, while you type your response, keep saying "57 regular season wins and never out of the first round".

first i don't compare apples to oranges. say what you wish about stoudemire but he came as a free agent and that means it was just dolan's money. moreover, dolan-- beyond the tacit mandate of the league to clean up his and isiah's mess by bringing in walsh-- drives the agenda for this team. a courageous, uncynical owner would have foregone the two-star approach and built patiently until a better situation came along. he had the option to do so but like most of the knick fanbase, he is an impatient dullard that prizes entertainment over winning.

building a winner requires patience and shrewdness. he lacks both but deep pockets keep you in the game. he is like a bad poker player who keeps replenishing his chips even if he is losing because he is willing to pay for being amused even as he is losing.

second, the writer is missing the obvious: the game has passed carmelo anthony by. it's a new era where efficiency is prized over volume and defense is in higher demand than ever. his analysis is therefore misleading let alone lazy.

instead of providing stability the roster has been in constant turmoil, much of it having to do with how difficult carmelo anthony is to play with, let alone build around.

So Stat was a humble, ungreedy soul who just took stupid Dolan's money. And promptly did sheehit for 3.5 out of 4 years. Compared to Melo's apples. Yes, I see your logic there.

Yes, and your incessant whining about efficiency and game passing and owner stupidity has a tremendous amount to do with the value of the pieces of oranges we gave away to get Carmelo, the greedy fool.

why are constantly peevish and uncivil? stoudemire got max money not because he was greedy but because dolan was desperate to get a name in new york city and stoudemire was in the right place at the right time. you can make a case for saying that we gave up only lee i suppose.

and nobody feels stat is a franchise talent, do they? so while dolan felt it necessary to overpay for damaged goods how does that translate to stoudemire being either humble or greedy? i liked the team we had starting out in 2010-2011 but i did not like felton much at all and i thought stat was too selfish and limited anyway. so he was a number two guy who got max money but did not cost the knicks human assets. had melo done the same thing that would have been acceptable.

if anything i have to believe that stoudemire was humiliated in the wake of the melo deal. and i felt that once he was paired with a real point guard he would have thrived. instead we acquire a player who is essentially redundant and stoudemire gets shoved aside and becomes immediately irrelevant. much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.

I agree 100% and couldn't have said it any better.

Stat is the perfect system guy, for a fast pace offense. Stat and Melo are examples of what happens when ownership and management are on two different pages. I'm still against the Melo trade, even though it looks like we got the better deal. Because I believe there were other deals that could've complimented what we had, without trading away all of our leverage. Basically we did an all in move with Melo, by giving away all of our trading chips, hoping Melo's star talent would help Stat, but it actually did the opposite.

Born in Brooklyn, Raised in Queens, Lives in Maryland. The future is bright, I'm a Knicks fan for life!
dk7th
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11/25/2013  2:47 PM
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
why are constantly peevish and uncivil?

Is it possible for you to just answer the two questions this comment raises?

dk7th wrote:assuming everything you read here is true then the conclusion is that melo is a greedy fool for coming to new york to be numero uno. he is also being intellectually dishonest when he uses empty calorie statistics to support his opinion on the evaluation of players mentioned. melo has value but the price paid in salary and assets was far more than whatever value he brings.

1) please provide meaningful stats to disprove the value the author assigned to the human assets that were used to get Melo.

2) given that you have not done (and most likely cannot do) #1, explain how Melo is a greedy fool for coming to NYC.

how about this: any writer worth his salt should not be providing PPG in this day and age as this is the most useless statistic. it's HOW those points are gotten that matters and melo's ppg are inflated points because his TS%, let alone his FG%, is so low. the rebounds he has been getting lately are admirable, save for one slight problem: he is getting offensive rebounds by having to follow his own missed shots after getting the ball crammed back in his face. still he is doing a decent job there. but has been noted by wally and coach collins-- he needs to get his shooting percentage up closer to 50%. collins also added he is working too hard for his points because he insists on going iso. he is a relic, a dinosaur...

knicks are 3-9 and you have every reason to be upset-- i am giving you data that you may not like to see but there is no question that carmelo anthony is a very problematic player even without noting how overmatched he is on defense at either forward position.

he is a fool for grossly overestimating his own value to a team. i can't state it any simpler than that.

in every circumstance except the one where he is the third option on a team his net value on the court is close to zero. as a second option you can almost get away with him but the deeper into the playoffs you go with him as a second option the more trouble you will be in. you can't get him to move without the ball and he won't keep the ball moving no matter who he is playing alongside. he doesn't create for others either. then there's the defense he allegedly plays.

as a third player, a la bosh or allen, carmelo would be a really good value. i can see that. it means the decision-making is taken off his shoulders that much more, which would be a good thing since his BBIQ is very low. but then he should only be looking for 13-14 million a year so he can have an opportunity to get better players than himself here to new york.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
Bonn1997
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11/25/2013  2:51 PM
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
why are constantly peevish and uncivil?

Is it possible for you to just answer the two questions this comment raises?

dk7th wrote:assuming everything you read here is true then the conclusion is that melo is a greedy fool for coming to new york to be numero uno. he is also being intellectually dishonest when he uses empty calorie statistics to support his opinion on the evaluation of players mentioned. melo has value but the price paid in salary and assets was far more than whatever value he brings.

1) please provide meaningful stats to disprove the value the author assigned to the human assets that were used to get Melo.

2) given that you have not done (and most likely cannot do) #1, explain how Melo is a greedy fool for coming to NYC.

how about this: any writer worth his salt should not be providing PPG in this day and age as this is the most useless statistic. it's HOW those points are gotten that matters and melo's ppg are inflated points because his TS%, let alone his FG%, is so low. the rebounds he has been getting lately are admirable, save for one slight problem: he is getting offensive rebounds by having to follow his own missed shots after getting the ball crammed back in his face. still he is doing a decent job there. but has been noted by wally and coach collins-- he needs to get his shooting percentage up closer to 50%. collins also added he is working too hard for his points because he insists on going iso. he is a relic, a dinosaur...

knicks are 3-9 and you have every reason to be upset-- i am giving you data that you may not like to see but there is no question that carmelo anthony is a very problematic player even without noting how overmatched he is on defense at either forward position.

he is a fool for grossly overestimating his own value to a team. i can't state it any simpler than that.

in every circumstance except the one where he is the third option on a team his net value on the court is close to zero. as a second option you can almost get away with him but the deeper into the playoffs you go with him as a second option the more trouble you will be in. you can't get him to move without the ball and he won't keep the ball moving no matter who he is playing alongside. he doesn't create for others either. then there's the defense he allegedly plays.

as a third player, a la bosh or allen, carmelo would be a really good value. i can see that. it means the decision-making is taken off his shoulders that much more, which would be a good thing since his BBIQ is very low. but then he should only be looking for 13-14 million a year so he can have an opportunity to get better players than himself here to new york.


Yeah, he should be looking to be a team's third best player taking something like 12 to 14 high quality shots a game.
jrodmc
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11/25/2013  3:17 PM
Yeah, how about we all notice how neither of you address (using whatever stat makes you excited) the value of the human assets we gave up to get Melo?
Instead it's more of Melo's not efficient, Melo's FG% is not high enough, Melo's a dinosaur, Melo doesn't have enough assists, Bad Melo, Bad Melo.

None of which, by the way, makes him a greedy fool.

I'm not upset. I have a guy who will try and shove the ball through the rim at any and all costs, and is rebounding at both ends of the floor, whether it's off his misses, or someone elses. Which, in the last game, occurred more on someone else's misses. Nice backhanded complement there though, dk7th.

And I'd much rather have that, then the remainder of the list of human assets you both keep ignoring. From your favorite 1st round and out team out in the West, where people actually play real basketball. Just say it; we didn't give up much to get Melo. It's okay.

Don't be upset, Melo's doing more than scoring now, and I know that will continue to upset both of you. Maybe you can work in a few stats about how his increased rebounding actually makes Stat and others less efficient?

NardDogNation
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11/25/2013  3:29 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
arkrud wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:If Melo were on a championship team, I'd envision him taking very, very few mid range shots. He just doesn't hit a high enough % of them. He'd mostly take 3s and shots near the rim - (both from driving and from posting up). I could see him averaging around 18 PPG on 12 shots a game if he wanted to.

A more capable supporting cast, should help him get better looks and higher percentage shots in the process. That article was right in pointing out how abysmal our roster is at the moment.

He should be supporting cast himself... then he has a chance to get a chip.

That's nonsense. Kevin Durant shot 42% without Russell Westbrook last year. That is a prime example that shows that the team makes the star as much as the star makes the team. Why should we think that Melo can exempt himself from a fact that every star/champion has been beholden to?


Yeah, and he averaged close to a triple double

He averaged 30ppg, 9rpg and 6apg during the playoffs which isn't a farcry from what Melo did. And even without Westbrook, his guys are better than Melo's.

How did he manage to average 6 assists a game when his teammates shot below 40%?

Volume shots.


What does that mean?

OKC gets a lot of shots up because of the pace they play it. Even though they're shooting 40%, there are enough shots made to get a decent number of assists especially if you are the primary ballhandler.

So that explains a 6 to 1 ratio between Durant's and Melo's assists last post-season? OKC is just taking six times as many shots a game as the Knicks are?!

Melo was actually averaging 2.8 apg during the playoffs and again, had an inferior supporting cast.


Again, Melo's supporting cast had a higher FG% than Durant's. And Melo averaged 1.6 assists a game last post-season.

You're right about the assists. Was getting my info from BasketballReference.com using my phone, which was way off. Decided to quickly check a computer and realized the error. However, the Knicks shot 41% from the field while the Thunder shot 42.7%, which included several aberrations favoring a positive skew for the Knicks (Camby shooting 100%, Kenyon Martin shooting 58% and Tyson Chandler shooting 56%) and a downward skew for the Thunder (Kendrick Perkins shooting 26.3% and Thabo Sefalosha who shot 33.0%). The core players of our offensive attack were generally south of the 41% shooting percentage provided, while the Thunder's offensive core were better than their average. These shooting trends bare themselves out in free throw percentages (Knicks' 78.2% to the Thunders' 83.8%) and three point percentages (Knicks' 34.3% to the Thunders' 34.9%). They speak to the fact that Durant's supporting cast (without Westbrook) is better than Melo's supporting cast.

dk7th
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11/25/2013  3:46 PM
jrodmc wrote:Yeah, how about we all notice how neither of you address (using whatever stat makes you excited) the value of the human assets we gave up to get Melo?
Instead it's more of Melo's not efficient, Melo's FG% is not high enough, Melo's a dinosaur, Melo doesn't have enough assists, Bad Melo, Bad Melo.

None of which, by the way, makes him a greedy fool.

I'm not upset. I have a guy who will try and shove the ball through the rim at any and all costs, and is rebounding at both ends of the floor, whether it's off his misses, or someone elses. Which, in the last game, occurred more on someone else's misses. Nice backhanded complement there though, dk7th.

And I'd much rather have that, then the remainder of the list of human assets you both keep ignoring. From your favorite 1st round and out team out in the West, where people actually play real basketball. Just say it; we didn't give up much to get Melo. It's okay.

Don't be upset, Melo's doing more than scoring now, and I know that will continue to upset both of you. Maybe you can work in a few stats about how his increased rebounding actually makes Stat and others less efficient?

you and the author are not looking at matters from a bigger picture. maybe you are both incapable. these were assets that could have either been parlayed into something better for carmelo anthony or whose services could have been retained for him here. you can't predict injury or health but developing young players is constantly being deferred with the knicks.

as soon as melo was acquired through trade the knicks were forced into win-now mode because of the players traded away. and the players brought in to take their place have not been up to snuff. had he come as a free agent a year later the knicks could have continued to build something to the future instead of being sucked back into irrelevance and suffering turmoil.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
NardDogNation
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11/25/2013  3:59 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/25/2013  4:05 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:For the record, we took 81.0 shots a game last post-season and OKC took 81.6. At least look this stuff up before generating ridiculous theories.

You've mentioned Chauncey Billups as a "top 5 MVP" candidate during the 2008-2009 season (didn't even get a vote), Kevin Durant as averaging a triple double in the playoffs (not even close) and Melo as averaging 1apg during the same postseason (despite averaging 3 times more than that on a team that couldn't hit shots). My facts have been fine.

81.0 shots and 81.6 shots do not tell the entire story. The quality of the shots and a team's ability to knock them down are essential. When you have guys like JR Smith missing wide open shots (after round 1, game 4), Raymond Felton being a virtual no show and an offensive non-entity like Tyson Chandler, it's hard to get assists and especially hard to avoid double/triple teams.


First of all, I said Durant averaged close to a triple double in the 2nd round of the playoffs (and it was 9 rbs, 7 assists). You ignored both bold points.
Second, Billups really was 6th in MVP voting in 2008-9 even if you won't admit it.
Third, every argument you've made has used fictional data.

Durant still played 4 first round series games without Russell Westbrook. When you factor those in, his assists per game average is exactly 6.22apg (according to ESPN). That is roughly half of 10apg, and I don't consider the half of anything to be "close" to the goal.

Second, you're absolutely right about Billups. I got that from wikipedia using my phone and again it was wrong. I'm not sure if I misread the table or picked the wrong year but I was wrong. To correct myself, Billups was 6th in that MVP race according to BasketballballReferences.com but let's be honest, even that Billups was nowhere as good as Dwayne Wade has been with LeBron James, Kevin Garnett has been next to Paul Pierce or Russell Westbrook next to Kevin Durant during their contender years. The "robins" of these duos, which often were apart of a trio or quartet of stars that Melo's never had, were also guys that were legitimate franchise players. Billups was never that and only gained recognition after years of obscurity while playing next to 4 other quasi-all star type players. He was a pretty good player but finishing in 6th in an MVP race is no real consolation especially when duds like Peja Stojackovic had done the same in previous years.

Third, I've had my errors but you definitely had your own. I'll admit though that mine have been more egregious. In spite of it all, my key points though are still fine. Melo is a pretty good ball player who is being unfairly judged because he's never had Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett and Rajon Rondo; or Russell Westbrook, James Harden (and I guess Serge Ibaka); Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, and Andrew Bynum; Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh, etc.

Bonn1997
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11/25/2013  4:06 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/25/2013  4:07 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:For the record, we took 81.0 shots a game last post-season and OKC took 81.6. At least look this stuff up before generating ridiculous theories.

You've mentioned Chauncey Billups as a "top 5 MVP" candidate during the 2008-2009 season (didn't even get a vote), Kevin Durant as averaging a triple double in the playoffs (not even close) and Melo as averaging 1apg during the same postseason (despite averaging 3 times more than that on a team that couldn't hit shots). My facts have been fine.

81.0 shots and 81.6 shots do not tell the entire story. The quality of the shots and a team's ability to knock them down are essential. When you have guys like JR Smith missing wide open shots (after round 1, game 4), Raymond Felton being a virtual no show and an offensive non-entity like Tyson Chandler, it's hard to get assists and especially hard to avoid double/triple teams.


First of all, I said Durant averaged close to a triple double in the 2nd round of the playoffs (and it was 9 rbs, 7 assists). You ignored both bold points.
Second, Billups really was 6th in MVP voting in 2008-9 even if you won't admit it.
Third, every argument you've made has used fictional data.

Durant still played 4 first round series games without Russell Westbrook. When you factor those in, his assists per game average is exactly 6.22apg. That is roughly half of 10apg, and I don't consider the half of anything to be "close" to the higher end of the spectrum.

Second, you're absolutely right about Billups. I got that from wikipedia using my phone and again it was wrong. I'm not sure if I misread the chart or picked the wrong year but I was wrong. To correct myself, Billups was 6th in that MVP race according to BasketballballReferences.com but let's be honest, even that Billups was nowhere as good as Dwayne Wade has been with LeBron James, Kevin Garnett next to Paul Pierce or Russell Westbrook next to Kevin Durant. The "robins" of these duos, which often were apart of a trio or quartet of stars, were guys that were legitimate franchise players. Billups was never that and only gained recognition after years of obscurity after playing next to 4 other quasi-all star type players.

Third, I've had my errors but you definitely had your own. I'll admit though that mine have been more egregious. In spite of it all, my key points though are still fine.


No, the only error I made was that I said top 5 when Billups was 6th in MVP voting. (I thought he was 5th.) Billups was insanely efficient and productive then and deserved to be ahead of Wade and Garnett in MVP voting. I wasn't wrong when I said Durant flirted with a triple double in the 2nd round. I've heard announcers plenty of times use that phrase when the third stat is seven. If you're including the first round, then that's just a different discussion. But even if you do want to analyze Durant's 6.2 assists in the first round, don't forgot it takes Melo like a month of playoff games to accumulate 6+ assists.
NardDogNation
Posts: 27405
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11/25/2013  4:26 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:For the record, we took 81.0 shots a game last post-season and OKC took 81.6. At least look this stuff up before generating ridiculous theories.

You've mentioned Chauncey Billups as a "top 5 MVP" candidate during the 2008-2009 season (didn't even get a vote), Kevin Durant as averaging a triple double in the playoffs (not even close) and Melo as averaging 1apg during the same postseason (despite averaging 3 times more than that on a team that couldn't hit shots). My facts have been fine.

81.0 shots and 81.6 shots do not tell the entire story. The quality of the shots and a team's ability to knock them down are essential. When you have guys like JR Smith missing wide open shots (after round 1, game 4), Raymond Felton being a virtual no show and an offensive non-entity like Tyson Chandler, it's hard to get assists and especially hard to avoid double/triple teams.


First of all, I said Durant averaged close to a triple double in the 2nd round of the playoffs (and it was 9 rbs, 7 assists). You ignored both bold points.
Second, Billups really was 6th in MVP voting in 2008-9 even if you won't admit it.
Third, every argument you've made has used fictional data.

Durant still played 4 first round series games without Russell Westbrook. When you factor those in, his assists per game average is exactly 6.22apg. That is roughly half of 10apg, and I don't consider the half of anything to be "close" to the higher end of the spectrum.

Second, you're absolutely right about Billups. I got that from wikipedia using my phone and again it was wrong. I'm not sure if I misread the chart or picked the wrong year but I was wrong. To correct myself, Billups was 6th in that MVP race according to BasketballballReferences.com but let's be honest, even that Billups was nowhere as good as Dwayne Wade has been with LeBron James, Kevin Garnett next to Paul Pierce or Russell Westbrook next to Kevin Durant. The "robins" of these duos, which often were apart of a trio or quartet of stars, were guys that were legitimate franchise players. Billups was never that and only gained recognition after years of obscurity after playing next to 4 other quasi-all star type players.

Third, I've had my errors but you definitely had your own. I'll admit though that mine have been more egregious. In spite of it all, my key points though are still fine.


No, the only error I made was that I said top 5 when Billups was 6th in MVP voting. (I thought he was 5th.) Billups was insanely efficient and productive then and deserved to be ahead of Wade and Garnett in MVP voting. I wasn't wrong when I said Durant flirted with a triple double in the 2nd round. I've heard announcers plenty of times use that phrase when the third stat is seven. If you're including the first round, then that's just a different discussion. But even if you do want to analyze Durant's 6.2 assists in the first round, don't forgot it takes Melo like a month of playoff games to accumulate 6+ assists.

You're using a 6th place finish to validate Billups' career ahead of a guy like Dwayne Wade and Kevin Garnett. Do you honestly think that Billups will get a first team, Hall of Fame ballot ahead of both of those guys? Efficiency is nice but it only speaks to a limited aspect in determining a players effectiveness. It is the real reason why I'd always take the Celtics' Kevin Garnett and the first two years of LeBron James' Dwayne Wade when constructing a team. Because at the end of the day, the later two have far more individual and team accolades for a reason.

And I'm not sure why including the last 4 Thunder games of the first round is "just a different discussion". The discussion after all is about evaluating Durant's performance WITHOUT Russell Westbrook, which fits the criteria of the 4 games I included with the 5 second round games. Let's not pretend like I'm cherry-picking; they are afterall apart of the same 2012-2013 postseason. That being said, is assists per game WITHOUT Russell Westbrook during the entire 2012-2013 postseason is 6.22 and I don't consider that to be close to 10apg.

I've said this once and I'll say this again, I'm not suggesting that Carmelo Anthony is a better player than Kevin Durant or that he is his equal BUT he is certainly in the ball park. Durant put up 30.8ppg, 9rpg and 6.3apg during that 2012-2013 season. Melo put up 28.8ppg, 6.6rpg and 1.6apg. Durant lost in the second round. Melo lost in the second round. Over the course of their postseason career, Kevin Durant has put up 28.6ppg, 7.2rpg and 3.8apg while Melo has put up 25.7ppg, 7.3rpg and 2.8apg. Again, the two guys are in the same ballpark with each other.

Bonn1997
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11/25/2013  4:31 PM
There's nothing similar about them other than their PPG totals, which is irrelevant since it takes Melo 4 more shots a game to get the same PPG total.
Knixkik
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11/25/2013  4:48 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/25/2013  4:53 PM
dk7th wrote:
jrodmc wrote:Yeah, how about we all notice how neither of you address (using whatever stat makes you excited) the value of the human assets we gave up to get Melo?
Instead it's more of Melo's not efficient, Melo's FG% is not high enough, Melo's a dinosaur, Melo doesn't have enough assists, Bad Melo, Bad Melo.

None of which, by the way, makes him a greedy fool.

I'm not upset. I have a guy who will try and shove the ball through the rim at any and all costs, and is rebounding at both ends of the floor, whether it's off his misses, or someone elses. Which, in the last game, occurred more on someone else's misses. Nice backhanded complement there though, dk7th.

And I'd much rather have that, then the remainder of the list of human assets you both keep ignoring. From your favorite 1st round and out team out in the West, where people actually play real basketball. Just say it; we didn't give up much to get Melo. It's okay.

Don't be upset, Melo's doing more than scoring now, and I know that will continue to upset both of you. Maybe you can work in a few stats about how his increased rebounding actually makes Stat and others less efficient?

you and the author are not looking at matters from a bigger picture. maybe you are both incapable. these were assets that could have either been parlayed into something better for carmelo anthony or whose services could have been retained for him here. you can't predict injury or health but developing young players is constantly being deferred with the knicks.

as soon as melo was acquired through trade the knicks were forced into win-now mode because of the players traded away. and the players brought in to take their place have not been up to snuff. had he come as a free agent a year later the knicks could have continued to build something to the future instead of being sucked back into irrelevance and suffering turmoil.

The bigger picture is a classic example of the theory of the grass being always greener. The reality is it was unlikely those parts could have helped to acquire something "better." This is now based on hinesight where we see what Paul, Dwight, and Harden for example were traded for. Our package of assets was worth significantly less. In fact, Denver only accepted our package because they were stuck in a corner. They agreed to a deal multiple times with NJ which would have brought back Derrick Favors and 4 first round picks, amoung other pieces. Now if you ask every GM in the league which package they would rather have: Gallo, Chandler, 2 first rounders and spare parts or Favors, 4 first round picks, etc, what package do you think every single GM in the league would choose? We overvalued our players, myself included, and hoped for the best. People who still are hung on this trade from 3 years ago can only argue that had we not made that trade those asset would have turned into something greater, or we would still have them. But the reality is we know how this team functions. If we completely missed out on Melo we would have settled for someone like Ellis, Mayo, Kevin Martin etc. Its just the way the franchise works, no one can argue that. Your general argument about developing talent makes sense, it is just very naive and reality without Melo here would be much different than people hope.

Bonn1997
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11/25/2013  5:00 PM
How dare people imagine the grass being greener than 3-9 or 7-14 (our 3 year playoff record)!
CrushAlot
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11/25/2013  8:34 PM
Knixkik wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
dk7th wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
dk7th wrote:this piece is incoherent garbage. awful. is he getting paid?!?
Not sure why you would say that. Do you think Melo and the Knicks don't succeed in a three star system where Melo is the number 2 guy? Do you disagree with the point that guys mature and become more of a team player as they get older and understand that they may need to change their game to compliment other stars to win? If so I am going to say that I am leaning towards Doc Rivers opinion based on his knowledge of the game as a player and a coach.

assuming everything you read here is true then the conclusion is that melo is a greedy fool for coming to new york to be numero uno. he is also being intellectually dishonest when he uses empty calorie statistics to support his opinion on the evaluation of players mentioned. melo has value but the price paid in salary and assets was far more than whatever value he brings.


1) One, how do you read this and conclude that Melo a greedy fool for coming to New York? Was Stat a greedy fool for coming to NY and providing 1/2 of a max contract regular season?

2) And exactly what wholesome, nutritous statistics would you provide to offset these:

The Knicks gave up a lot of replaceable role players to acquire Anthony:
• Danilo Gallinari, who has averaged 15.5 points and shot 41.6 percent from the field in 128 games with the Nuggets. He sustained a torn ACL last April.
• Raymond Felton, who is back with the Knicks after disappointing seasons with the Nuggets and Trail Blazers.
• Wilson Chandler, who has averaged 12.3 points in 77 games with Denver.
• Timofey Mozgov, the "deal-breaker," who has been DNP for more than 40 percent of his games as a Nugget, and has averaged 4.7 points in 13 minutes when he has played.
• Eddy Curry, who has played 108 minutes since the trade.
• Anthony Randolph, who has averaged 6.9 points with two teams since the trade.
• Two second-round picks that turned into Quincy Miller and Romero Osby, who between them have played a total of 27 NBA minutes.
• A first-round pick in the 2014 draft, which may turn out to be the most valuable piece surrendered by New York.
Not only did the Knicks receive Anthony, but they also acquired Chauncey Billups, whose contract (via amnesty) enabled them to land Tyson Chandler. So they were able to exchange those role players (whose value had suddenly increased thanks to coach Mike D'Antoni's offensive system) for one of the NBA's most prolific scorers and a championship center.

And don't forget, while you type your response, keep saying "57 regular season wins and never out of the first round".

This list just goes to show that we didn't give up that much to acquire him, definitely much less than we initially thought. We can now say that with hinesight. The most valuable asset will be this year's draft pick. Last year's pick turned into Royce White, and their were very few productive players drafted behind him. In addition, i don't think we would want to have big money tied into Gallo and Chandler right now. Paying them thru 2016 and being tied into the duration of Stoudemire's contract over the last 4 years of it would have been a disaster. The opposing theory that another better deal would have come up instead of Melo is of course possible, but was always wishful thinking, especially given how good the deals for Paul, Dwight, and Harden were. Hell, even Iguodala brought back Bynum, who at the time was the 2nd best center in the league. We would be in a far tougher place than we are right now, still fresh off a 54-win season, thats for sure.

I agree with you post but the Royce White pick was traded with Jordan Hill to get the cap space that became Amare.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
This SI article sums up the state of Melo and the Knicks well

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