loweyecue wrote:So are we now admitting the current roster is worthless and this is all a master plan for 2015? We went from win now and chest thumping 52 win contenders to 2015 long term project by making one trade with two assets that were ..."worthless"?? Or are we contenders now and planning for 2015 at the same time?

54 win contenders.

This move sets us now(2 gimp power forwards instead of 1, meaning we really really need K-Mart back) as well as the summer 2015.

Yes to both questions you asked.

ChuckBuck wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

MS wrote:The Knicks aren't setting themselves up for anything. We tried this already and then made panic moves and locked the team into a mediocre squad after losing for 10 years and rebuilding for three. As long as Dolan is in charge the knicks are what they are second class, petty and team that will never go anywhere.

If they had a plan they wouldn't have given long term deals out to Kidd Novak and Camby in the offseason.

That last line literally made no sense whatsoever.

They just evacuated all 3 deals, what are you bitching about again?

But we potentially gave up 3 picks to rid ourselves of those horrid contracts and that's not even counting kidd's who fortunately retired but still counts against our cap. Anyone know what is the cap hold on Kidd after the buyout?

What 3 picks are cats talking about again???

ESPN, NBA.com, and Howard Beck all say 1 draft pick(2016 1st rd swappable with Denver). Only hold up to the deal was adding another salary for Sign and Trade(looks like it's Q Rich).

Again Bargnani deal ends same time as Melo/Stat/Chandler so the Knicks will be a prime destination for players like Aldridge, Love, and Irving.

Don't know if there is any downside to this deal, seems like fans making excuses just to make excuses. Doesn't damage us in the short term, doesn't damage us in the long term.

The deal is fine if we are only giving up the 2016 swap pick. This thread is about the potential of going all in after 2015 which I've been looking forward to since Lin embarrassed the Knicks a second time at the Garden on Dec 17th and really derailed our great start. Unfornately I don't see management ever having the foresight to stick to a plan. Walsh tried but mortgaged every asset minus Shumpert. Grunwald as much as I like him has continued that trend. Which ultimately reflects on the owner as always. Maybe they've learned. We will know soon enough

ChuckBuck wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

MS wrote:The Knicks aren't setting themselves up for anything. We tried this already and then made panic moves and locked the team into a mediocre squad after losing for 10 years and rebuilding for three. As long as Dolan is in charge the knicks are what they are second class, petty and team that will never go anywhere.

If they had a plan they wouldn't have given long term deals out to Kidd Novak and Camby in the offseason.

That last line literally made no sense whatsoever.

They just evacuated all 3 deals, what are you bitching about again?

But we potentially gave up 3 picks to rid ourselves of those horrid contracts and that's not even counting kidd's who fortunately retired but still counts against our cap. Anyone know what is the cap hold on Kidd after the buyout?

What 3 picks are cats talking about again???

ESPN, NBA.com, and Howard Beck all say 1 draft pick(2016 1st rd swappable with Denver). Only hold up to the deal was adding another salary for Sign and Trade(looks like it's Q Rich).

Again Bargnani deal ends same time as Melo/Stat/Chandler so the Knicks will be a prime destination for players like Aldridge, Love, and Irving.

Don't know if there is any downside to this deal, seems like fans making excuses just to make excuses. Doesn't damage us in the short term, doesn't damage us in the long term.

You can find a long list of sources saying we are including the 2nd round picks too. Perhaps some sites are leaving off the 2nd round picks because they're just reporting the main pieces of the deal.
You can see here how this NY Times article reports it the way ESPN et al. do at first (mentioning the key pieces but not the 2nd round picks)
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/02/sports/basketball/knicks-swap-novak-camby-for-bargnani.html?_r=0

The Knicks will send Steve Novak, Marcus Camby and a 2016 first-round draft pick to the Raptors in exchange for Bargnani

But when they include the full details below, they mention likely 2nd round picks

The Knicks are also expected to send the Raptors at least one second-round pick in the deal.

Google search "Knicks Bargnani 2nd round picks" and you will find a long list of articles mentioning the picks.

But, we're trying to resign JR, Prigioni, and Copeland and we have the MLE this Summer and next. Let's say we resign JR and Prigioni and also use our MLEs the next 2 years. JR would probably be making around $6.5M, Prigioni $2M, and the MLEs about $3.2M each. If all that money is guaranteed it would be another $15M bringing our cap number to $24M and leaving $40M in space.

The next big questions are Melo and Tyson. It's safe to say that Amare won't be resigned for anywhere near what he's making so we won't worry about him. Tyson will have a cap hold of about $15M which eats into the remaining cap space. If we want to use his Bird rights to go over the cap and resign him that cap hold stays until he signs a new contract. Melo's a little more complicated because he also has a player option the year before. If he opts out and we resign him I think it's safe to say he'll be getting the maximum which would be another $25M in guaranteed money. If he doesn't opt out his cap hold would still be $25M.

What does it all mean? Potentially we have anywhere form $0 to $64M in cap space for 2015. If we want to maximize out potential cap room we won't sign or trade for any players that have guaranteed money past 2014. The problem with that is we're already limited to which free agents are willing to sign here and if we're not willing to guarantee any money past 1 or 2 seasons that limits our options even more over the next 2 seasons. If we want to maximize our potential these next 2 years that eats into our potential cap space in 2015.

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

MS wrote:The Knicks aren't setting themselves up for anything. We tried this already and then made panic moves and locked the team into a mediocre squad after losing for 10 years and rebuilding for three. As long as Dolan is in charge the knicks are what they are second class, petty and team that will never go anywhere.

If they had a plan they wouldn't have given long term deals out to Kidd Novak and Camby in the offseason.

That last line literally made no sense whatsoever.

They just evacuated all 3 deals, what are you bitching about again?

But we potentially gave up 3 picks to rid ourselves of those horrid contracts and that's not even counting kidd's who fortunately retired but still counts against our cap. Anyone know what is the cap hold on Kidd after the buyout?

What 3 picks are cats talking about again???

ESPN, NBA.com, and Howard Beck all say 1 draft pick(2016 1st rd swappable with Denver). Only hold up to the deal was adding another salary for Sign and Trade(looks like it's Q Rich).

Again Bargnani deal ends same time as Melo/Stat/Chandler so the Knicks will be a prime destination for players like Aldridge, Love, and Irving.

Don't know if there is any downside to this deal, seems like fans making excuses just to make excuses. Doesn't damage us in the short term, doesn't damage us in the long term.

You can find a long list of sources saying we are including the 2nd round picks too. Perhaps some sites are leaving off the 2nd round picks because they're just reporting the main pieces of the deal.
You can see here how this NY Times article reports it the way ESPN et al. do at first (mentioning the key pieces but not the 2nd round picks)
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/02/sports/basketball/knicks-swap-novak-camby-for-bargnani.html?_r=0

The Knicks will send Steve Novak, Marcus Camby and a 2016 first-round draft pick to the Raptors in exchange for Bargnani

But when they include the full details below, they mention likely 2nd round picks

The Knicks are also expected to send the Raptors at least one second-round pick in the deal.

Google search "Knicks Bargnani 2nd round picks" and you will find a long list of articles mentioning the picks.

Even if it's true, are you really fretting over 2nd rounders?

VCoug wrote:Best as I can tell here's our salary breakdown for the Summer of 2015. It's been rumored that the salary cap is increasing by about $2M this year so let's assume it does that each of the next 2 years as well. That gives us a cap number of $64M. That Summer Felton has a player option for $4.5M, which I'm assuming he opts in, Shumpert has a qualifying offer for $3.9M, and Hardaway I believe will have a team option for a little over $2M, let's say $2.5M to be safe. That's about $9M in contracts none of which are guaranteed, leaving us with at least $55M in space.

But, we're trying to resign JR, Prigioni, and Copeland and we have the MLE this Summer and next. Let's say we resign JR and Prigioni and also use our MLEs the next 2 years. JR would probably be making around $6.5M, Prigioni $2M, and the MLEs about $3.2M each. If all that money is guaranteed it would be another $15M bringing our cap number to $24M and leaving $40M in space.

The next big questions are Melo and Tyson. It's safe to say that Amare won't be resigned for anywhere near what he's making so we won't worry about him. Tyson will have a cap hold of about $15M which eats into the remaining cap space. If we want to use his Bird rights to go over the cap and resign him that cap hold stays until he signs a new contract. Melo's a little more complicated because he also has a player option the year before. If he opts out and we resign him I think it's safe to say he'll be getting the maximum which would be another $25M in guaranteed money. If he doesn't opt out his cap hold would still be $25M.

What does it all mean? Potentially we have anywhere form $0 to $64M in cap space for 2015. If we want to maximize out potential cap room we won't sign or trade for any players that have guaranteed money past 2014. The problem with that is we're already limited to which free agents are willing to sign here and if we're not willing to guarantee any money past 1 or 2 seasons that limits our options even more over the next 2 seasons. If we want to maximize our potential these next 2 years that eats into our potential cap space in 2015.

No way is that correct. $15M in 2015 for Prigs, Cope, JR? how about $0M for those 3 in 2015.

I think the rest of your analysis is off to re Tyson.

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

MS wrote:The Knicks aren't setting themselves up for anything. We tried this already and then made panic moves and locked the team into a mediocre squad after losing for 10 years and rebuilding for three. As long as Dolan is in charge the knicks are what they are second class, petty and team that will never go anywhere.

If they had a plan they wouldn't have given long term deals out to Kidd Novak and Camby in the offseason.

That last line literally made no sense whatsoever.

They just evacuated all 3 deals, what are you bitching about again?

But we potentially gave up 3 picks to rid ourselves of those horrid contracts and that's not even counting kidd's who fortunately retired but still counts against our cap. Anyone know what is the cap hold on Kidd after the buyout?

What 3 picks are cats talking about again???

ESPN, NBA.com, and Howard Beck all say 1 draft pick(2016 1st rd swappable with Denver). Only hold up to the deal was adding another salary for Sign and Trade(looks like it's Q Rich).

Again Bargnani deal ends same time as Melo/Stat/Chandler so the Knicks will be a prime destination for players like Aldridge, Love, and Irving.

Don't know if there is any downside to this deal, seems like fans making excuses just to make excuses. Doesn't damage us in the short term, doesn't damage us in the long term.

You can find a long list of sources saying we are including the 2nd round picks too. Perhaps some sites are leaving off the 2nd round picks because they're just reporting the main pieces of the deal.
You can see here how this NY Times article reports it the way ESPN et al. do at first (mentioning the key pieces but not the 2nd round picks)
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/02/sports/basketball/knicks-swap-novak-camby-for-bargnani.html?_r=0

The Knicks will send Steve Novak, Marcus Camby and a 2016 first-round draft pick to the Raptors in exchange for Bargnani

But when they include the full details below, they mention likely 2nd round picks

The Knicks are also expected to send the Raptors at least one second-round pick in the deal.

ChuckBuck wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

MS wrote:The Knicks aren't setting themselves up for anything. We tried this already and then made panic moves and locked the team into a mediocre squad after losing for 10 years and rebuilding for three. As long as Dolan is in charge the knicks are what they are second class, petty and team that will never go anywhere.

If they had a plan they wouldn't have given long term deals out to Kidd Novak and Camby in the offseason.

That last line literally made no sense whatsoever.

They just evacuated all 3 deals, what are you bitching about again?

But we potentially gave up 3 picks to rid ourselves of those horrid contracts and that's not even counting kidd's who fortunately retired but still counts against our cap. Anyone know what is the cap hold on Kidd after the buyout?

What 3 picks are cats talking about again???

ESPN, NBA.com, and Howard Beck all say 1 draft pick(2016 1st rd swappable with Denver). Only hold up to the deal was adding another salary for Sign and Trade(looks like it's Q Rich).

Again Bargnani deal ends same time as Melo/Stat/Chandler so the Knicks will be a prime destination for players like Aldridge, Love, and Irving.

Don't know if there is any downside to this deal, seems like fans making excuses just to make excuses. Doesn't damage us in the short term, doesn't damage us in the long term.

The deal is fine if we are only giving up the 2016 swap pick. This thread is about the potential of going all in after 2015 which I've been looking forward to since Lin embarrassed the Knicks a second time at the Garden on Dec 17th and really derailed our great start. Unfornately I don't see management ever having the foresight to stick to a plan. Walsh tried but mortgaged every asset minus Shumpert. Grunwald as much as I like him has continued that trend. Which ultimately reflects on the owner as always. Maybe they've learned. We will know soon enough

Even if the 2 2nd rounders are included, are you really going to be upset over non guaranteed contracts you can easily replace?

Probably not if Bargs is productive and not in Woodsons doghouse for not defending and rebounding like Novak was.

The trade at the very least keeps fans in the seats and gives us a reason to watch in hopes that Bargs needed a change of scenery and will flourish at MSG. Better than going into a season expecting to finish 5-8 and knowing you are getting bounced rd 1 or 2. Still can hold us over til 2015. I'm ok with that. I just hope the Knicks don't panic and trade for mcdyess, Marbury, Francis, curry 2.O

VCoug wrote:

martin wrote:

VCoug wrote:Best as I can tell here's our salary breakdown for the Summer of 2015. It's been rumored that the salary cap is increasing by about $2M this year so let's assume it does that each of the next 2 years as well. That gives us a cap number of $64M. That Summer Felton has a player option for $4.5M, which I'm assuming he opts in, Shumpert has a qualifying offer for $3.9M, and Hardaway I believe will have a team option for a little over $2M, let's say $2.5M to be safe. That's about $9M in contracts none of which are guaranteed, leaving us with at least $55M in space.

But, we're trying to resign JR, Prigioni, and Copeland and we have the MLE this Summer and next. Let's say we resign JR and Prigioni and also use our MLEs the next 2 years. JR would probably be making around $6.5M, Prigioni $2M, and the MLEs about $3.2M each. If all that money is guaranteed it would be another $15M bringing our cap number to $24M and leaving $40M in space.

The next big questions are Melo and Tyson. It's safe to say that Amare won't be resigned for anywhere near what he's making so we won't worry about him. Tyson will have a cap hold of about $15M which eats into the remaining cap space. If we want to use his Bird rights to go over the cap and resign him that cap hold stays until he signs a new contract. Melo's a little more complicated because he also has a player option the year before. If he opts out and we resign him I think it's safe to say he'll be getting the maximum which would be another $25M in guaranteed money. If he doesn't opt out his cap hold would still be $25M.

What does it all mean? Potentially we have anywhere form $0 to $64M in cap space for 2015. If we want to maximize out potential cap room we won't sign or trade for any players that have guaranteed money past 2014. The problem with that is we're already limited to which free agents are willing to sign here and if we're not willing to guarantee any money past 1 or 2 seasons that limits our options even more over the next 2 seasons. If we want to maximize our potential these next 2 years that eats into our potential cap space in 2015.

No way is that correct. $15M in 2015 for Prigs, Cope, JR? how about $0M for those 3 in 2015.

If we resign them and use our MLEs this year and next it would be around $15M spread out over 4 players. I didn't include Copeland because I'm assuming he signs somewhere else.

Get this through to your brain: The assumption by me around Novak was that the Knicks just traded him away to clear big space and you think the Knicks are then gonna turn around and eat up that same space by resigning Prigs (at 36) and JR to 3 year deals? JR will be on a 2 year deal - if anything - so that he can get his full Bird Rights in 2015.

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

MS wrote:The Knicks aren't setting themselves up for anything. We tried this already and then made panic moves and locked the team into a mediocre squad after losing for 10 years and rebuilding for three. As long as Dolan is in charge the knicks are what they are second class, petty and team that will never go anywhere.

If they had a plan they wouldn't have given long term deals out to Kidd Novak and Camby in the offseason.

That last line literally made no sense whatsoever.

They just evacuated all 3 deals, what are you bitching about again?

But we potentially gave up 3 picks to rid ourselves of those horrid contracts and that's not even counting kidd's who fortunately retired but still counts against our cap. Anyone know what is the cap hold on Kidd after the buyout?

What 3 picks are cats talking about again???

ESPN, NBA.com, and Howard Beck all say 1 draft pick(2016 1st rd swappable with Denver). Only hold up to the deal was adding another salary for Sign and Trade(looks like it's Q Rich).

Again Bargnani deal ends same time as Melo/Stat/Chandler so the Knicks will be a prime destination for players like Aldridge, Love, and Irving.

Don't know if there is any downside to this deal, seems like fans making excuses just to make excuses. Doesn't damage us in the short term, doesn't damage us in the long term.

You can find a long list of sources saying we are including the 2nd round picks too. Perhaps some sites are leaving off the 2nd round picks because they're just reporting the main pieces of the deal.
You can see here how this NY Times article reports it the way ESPN et al. do at first (mentioning the key pieces but not the 2nd round picks)
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/02/sports/basketball/knicks-swap-novak-camby-for-bargnani.html?_r=0

The Knicks will send Steve Novak, Marcus Camby and a 2016 first-round draft pick to the Raptors in exchange for Bargnani

But when they include the full details below, they mention likely 2nd round picks

The Knicks are also expected to send the Raptors at least one second-round pick in the deal.

Google search "Knicks Bargnani 2nd round picks" and you will find a long list of articles mentioning the picks.

Even if it's true, are you really fretting over 2nd rounders?

Well, we're giving up 3 picks and the better players. We should be getting 2 picks here. This is a net loss of about 5 picks relative to a statistically neutral, fair trade.

You do know the 1st rounder 2016 really belongs to Denver if we suck? If we don't, it'll be like this season's(in the late teens or 20s). Is Andrew Wiggins going to be available in 2016? Oh, he'll be in next year's draft in 2014...okay, then who the #### cares.

And 2nd rounders...come on, man. We still talkin' 2nd rounders!!! Guess we'll miss out on the next Jorts or Andy Rautins...

AnubisADL wrote:I assume we'd want Aldridge or Gasol.

Biggest thing is Knicks still have Melo. See what Boston got for old ass Garnett and Pierce. They jump started their rebuild.

Knicks have options and cap space. I like the move.