martin wrote:

tkf wrote:well martin, we can't use the ACL as an excuse, I mean that may be what holds him back.. saying he is coming off ACL doesn't mean that he is on the same path before the injury. I think it is overboard to start talking elite about someone who has not put in a complete season of work yet. Isn't that reasonable? I think he can be a very good defender as he is already a good defender now.... elite potential? well we just have to wait and see..

I am not sure what those stats you posted prove with him being an elite defender or potentially.. care to elaborate? I am not sure I am following you here..

I am not using the ACL as an excuse but it's clear that Shump was not the same player in January as in June, that's just flat out fact and also putting Shump's play into the right context. If the season were 3 months longer I think we would have seen much better play from him.

Also note that the guy was our starting SF who was asked to guard the other teams best perimeter player on a regular basis, that's speaks A LOT

ok martin, so what is the right context to put shumpert in.. I am asking you.. Good, great, or hall of fame.. considering the small body of work, as you well acknowledged... where would you put him.. so far, I heard elite.... I disagree with that at this point.... are you saying you agree? because I am not sure what point you are arguing here..

tkf wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I had no idea that on one hand Mr Two Way Paul George could be the second coming and on the other, Shumpert wouldn't be worth grooming

well then I suggest you watch the last two seasons of pacers games... Paul george body of work so far indicates that he is on a sharp rise and he has put in enough consistent work to indicate that he is on the verge of fulfilling that potential.. or did you not watch the 2013 playoffs?

Again, this is typical over the top overrating of knick players... all of a sudden now we have to overrate shumpert because it is believed we have no young talent.. shumpert is a good young player, but we just don't have enough evidence to start equating him to anything great....

and show me one post that said shumpert isn't worth grooming. i ask you to show me ONE POST? He is being groomed hopefully, but his skillset unfortunately doesn't scream great at this point... can you at least understand that before we start using words like"elite"...

I thought the Knicks needed two way players? Why not develop the one guy on the roster that has a chance to be one? Instead of opting for the flavor of the month.

SupremeCommander wrote:

tkf wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I had no idea that on one hand Mr Two Way Paul George could be the second coming and on the other, Shumpert wouldn't be worth grooming

well then I suggest you watch the last two seasons of pacers games... Paul george body of work so far indicates that he is on a sharp rise and he has put in enough consistent work to indicate that he is on the verge of fulfilling that potential.. or did you not watch the 2013 playoffs?

Again, this is typical over the top overrating of knick players... all of a sudden now we have to overrate shumpert because it is believed we have no young talent.. shumpert is a good young player, but we just don't have enough evidence to start equating him to anything great....

and show me one post that said shumpert isn't worth grooming. i ask you to show me ONE POST? He is being groomed hopefully, but his skillset unfortunately doesn't scream great at this point... can you at least understand that before we start using words like"elite"...

I thought the Knicks needed two way players? Why not develop the one guy on the roster that has a chance to be one? Instead of opting for the flavor of the month.

WHAT are you talking about? I really don't know since no one suggested that we should not develop shumpert

tkf wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

tkf wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I had no idea that on one hand Mr Two Way Paul George could be the second coming and on the other, Shumpert wouldn't be worth grooming

well then I suggest you watch the last two seasons of pacers games... Paul george body of work so far indicates that he is on a sharp rise and he has put in enough consistent work to indicate that he is on the verge of fulfilling that potential.. or did you not watch the 2013 playoffs?

Again, this is typical over the top overrating of knick players... all of a sudden now we have to overrate shumpert because it is believed we have no young talent.. shumpert is a good young player, but we just don't have enough evidence to start equating him to anything great....

and show me one post that said shumpert isn't worth grooming. i ask you to show me ONE POST? He is being groomed hopefully, but his skillset unfortunately doesn't scream great at this point... can you at least understand that before we start using words like"elite"...

I thought the Knicks needed two way players? Why not develop the one guy on the roster that has a chance to be one? Instead of opting for the flavor of the month.

WHAT are you talking about? I really don't know since no one suggested that we should not develop shumpert

deuces!

tkf wrote:

martin wrote:

tkf wrote:well martin, we can't use the ACL as an excuse, I mean that may be what holds him back.. saying he is coming off ACL doesn't mean that he is on the same path before the injury. I think it is overboard to start talking elite about someone who has not put in a complete season of work yet. Isn't that reasonable? I think he can be a very good defender as he is already a good defender now.... elite potential? well we just have to wait and see..

I am not sure what those stats you posted prove with him being an elite defender or potentially.. care to elaborate? I am not sure I am following you here..

I am not using the ACL as an excuse but it's clear that Shump was not the same player in January as in June, that's just flat out fact and also putting Shump's play into the right context. If the season were 3 months longer I think we would have seen much better play from him.

Also note that the guy was our starting SF who was asked to guard the other teams best perimeter player on a regular basis, that's speaks A LOT

ok martin, so what is the right context to put shumpert in.. I am asking you.. Good, great, or hall of fame.. considering the small body of work, as you well acknowledged... where would you put him.. so far, I heard elite.... I disagree with that at this point.... are you saying you agree? because I am not sure what point you are arguing here..

the context I am talking about is not categorizing him against "Good, Great, Hall of Fame" but rather: he didn't have summer to improve, didn't have training camp, didn't have first preseason, didn't have first few months of season and then comparing him from January to May. He started - maybe not deserving at start of his season - and was asked to guard other team's best wing player night after night, and by end of season did a very good job of that (and this was just not SGs, he did it against SFs too). More context: dude still has not had 1 off-season where he could train properly and have training camp - 2 large swath's of time where players improve. In January his side-to-side agility was non-existent as was his leaping, but in playoffs they were at the top of the game - keys to locking down perimeter players. Check out his rebounding numbers for a 6'5" guy, very high and done throughout playoffs.

It's about potential. Dude has elite defensive potential: the strength and speed to guard PG to SF.

martin wrote:

tkf wrote:

martin wrote:

tkf wrote:well martin, we can't use the ACL as an excuse, I mean that may be what holds him back.. saying he is coming off ACL doesn't mean that he is on the same path before the injury. I think it is overboard to start talking elite about someone who has not put in a complete season of work yet. Isn't that reasonable? I think he can be a very good defender as he is already a good defender now.... elite potential? well we just have to wait and see..

I am not sure what those stats you posted prove with him being an elite defender or potentially.. care to elaborate? I am not sure I am following you here..

I am not using the ACL as an excuse but it's clear that Shump was not the same player in January as in June, that's just flat out fact and also putting Shump's play into the right context. If the season were 3 months longer I think we would have seen much better play from him.

Also note that the guy was our starting SF who was asked to guard the other teams best perimeter player on a regular basis, that's speaks A LOT

ok martin, so what is the right context to put shumpert in.. I am asking you.. Good, great, or hall of fame.. considering the small body of work, as you well acknowledged... where would you put him.. so far, I heard elite.... I disagree with that at this point.... are you saying you agree? because I am not sure what point you are arguing here..

the context I am talking about is not categorizing him against "Good, Great, Hall of Fame" but rather: he didn't have summer to improve, didn't have training camp, didn't have first preseason, didn't have first few months of season and then comparing him from January to May. He started - maybe not deserving at start of his season - and was asked to guard other team's best wing player night after night, and by end of season did a very good job of that (and this was just not SGs, he did it against SFs too). More context: dude still has not had 1 off-season where he could train properly and have training camp - 2 large swath's of time where players improve. In January his side-to-side agility was non-existent as was his leaping, but in playoffs they were at the top of the game - keys to locking down perimeter players. Check out his rebounding numbers for a 6'5" guy, very high and done throughout playoffs.

It's about potential. Dude has elite defensive potential: the strength and speed to guard PG to SF.

I am not dissagree with most of what you said martin, but here is where I tend to part ways a bit..

Dude has elite defensive potential: the strength and speed to guard PG to SF.

ok being able to guard PG and Sf is a good thing, and so far he has shown potential to be a good defender, actually he is a good defender now, but I haven't seen enough evidence or body of work to start talking elite martin...

Check out his rebounding numbers for a 6'5" guy, very high and done throughout playoffs.

were they any better than lance stephenson? no. another 6'5 guy who averaged almost 2 boards per game more... I would like to see shumpert get to the level that stephenson played at during most of the playoffs, and I am talking rebounding and playmaking ability.. but again play making is offense and we are talking defense here..

shumpert has shown flashes of being a really good defender, but it is , at this point going overboard talking elite...

do you really know what his potential is since as you said, he had an ACL, didn't have a full training camp...etc.. how can you or anyone make such a bold assumption considering these things?
It would be nice to see all of that put together for some period of time outside of a month or two before I start using words such as "elite"..

he has potential, I just don't think it is fair to start talking elite at this point.. considering everything..

tkf wrote:

martin wrote:

tkf wrote:

martin wrote:

tkf wrote:well martin, we can't use the ACL as an excuse, I mean that may be what holds him back.. saying he is coming off ACL doesn't mean that he is on the same path before the injury. I think it is overboard to start talking elite about someone who has not put in a complete season of work yet. Isn't that reasonable? I think he can be a very good defender as he is already a good defender now.... elite potential? well we just have to wait and see..

I am not sure what those stats you posted prove with him being an elite defender or potentially.. care to elaborate? I am not sure I am following you here..

I am not using the ACL as an excuse but it's clear that Shump was not the same player in January as in June, that's just flat out fact and also putting Shump's play into the right context. If the season were 3 months longer I think we would have seen much better play from him.

Also note that the guy was our starting SF who was asked to guard the other teams best perimeter player on a regular basis, that's speaks A LOT

ok martin, so what is the right context to put shumpert in.. I am asking you.. Good, great, or hall of fame.. considering the small body of work, as you well acknowledged... where would you put him.. so far, I heard elite.... I disagree with that at this point.... are you saying you agree? because I am not sure what point you are arguing here..

the context I am talking about is not categorizing him against "Good, Great, Hall of Fame" but rather: he didn't have summer to improve, didn't have training camp, didn't have first preseason, didn't have first few months of season and then comparing him from January to May. He started - maybe not deserving at start of his season - and was asked to guard other team's best wing player night after night, and by end of season did a very good job of that (and this was just not SGs, he did it against SFs too). More context: dude still has not had 1 off-season where he could train properly and have training camp - 2 large swath's of time where players improve. In January his side-to-side agility was non-existent as was his leaping, but in playoffs they were at the top of the game - keys to locking down perimeter players. Check out his rebounding numbers for a 6'5" guy, very high and done throughout playoffs.

It's about potential. Dude has elite defensive potential: the strength and speed to guard PG to SF.

I am not dissagree with most of what you said martin, but here is where I tend to part ways a bit..

Dude has elite defensive potential: the strength and speed to guard PG to SF.

ok being able to guard PG and Sf is a good thing, and so far he has shown potential to be a good defender, actually he is a good defender now, but I haven't seen enough evidence or body of work to start talking elite martin...

Check out his rebounding numbers for a 6'5" guy, very high and done throughout playoffs.

were they any better than lance stephenson? no. another 6'5 guy who averaged almost 2 boards per game more... I would like to see shumpert get to the level that stephenson played at during most of the playoffs, and I am talking rebounding and playmaking ability.. but again play making is offense and we are talking defense here..

shumpert has shown flashes of being a really good defender, but it is , at this point going overboard talking elite...

do you really know what his potential is since as you said, he had an ACL, didn't have a full training camp...etc.. how can you or anyone make such a bold assumption considering these things?
It would be nice to see all of that put together for some period of time outside of a month or two before I start using words such as "elite"..

he has potential, I just don't think it is fair to start talking elite at this point.. considering everything..

when talking about potential it's obviously not something that has happened and may never happen, that's why it's potential.

The whole ****ing draft is chatter about guys having potential and what it will be without a day in the NBA.

BTW, showing me 1 guy who equaled a rebounding mark as Shump does not negate his own display.

Shump has strength, quickness, long arms, the knack and - despite some very obvious roadblocks of missing time - has shown the ability and willingness. That's why I put him to elite potential status, meaning he could be one of the best wing defenders in the league.

You are obviously looking for hard evidence before you go there. That's nice and all but I am being more forward looking.

3G4G wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:I dont think anyone in this draft is worth trading Shumpert for.

I think this draft is as good as last year's draft....therefore their could be at least 5 players better than Shumpert up to 10. I would want at least a 2nd rounder out of the deal if we were even eligible to take on Marion's deal considering our Cap situation and CBA rules.

there COULD be. That's the sticking point and since none of the incoming draftees have either separated themselves or raised their stock enough to say...this one is going to be better than Shump so, the guys was right in saying Shump should not be included. I don't see how that's overvaluing, its just valuing him.

yellowboy90 wrote:Shump will only be good to some posters once only if he leaves NY.

Shump potential on offense gets bump for all the reasons Martin said but when you add He can knock down threes it puts him in a category higher than Stevenson and Toney Allen. Neither one has good jumper. SIhns point to Shump even being better next year.

To find out, the Journal looked at 34 NBA players who have torn an ACL since 2003. To factor out the effects of age, we limited the sample to the 20 players who were 26 years or younger at the time of the injury. Since coming back, those players have shot 42% from 16 to 23 feet—up from 38% before their injuries, a fairly significant improvement.

That statistic looks even more persuasive when you consider that for players in that age range who have spent at least five years in the NBA and did not sustain an ACL injury—midrange shooting actually declined to 39% in their most recent season from 40% when they were rookies, according to Stats LLC.

If Shump makes a jump in other areas besides shooting which is possible he probably goes to a 45-48% FG/ 36-38% 3FG type player with 5-7 rebs and 3-5 assists.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323384604578326451812887938.html

HAHA, couldn't have said it better myself.

NardDogNation wrote:

VCoug wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

VCoug wrote:

3G4G wrote:

VCoug wrote:I'd take on Marion's contract if it meant the 13th pick, no question. But, like others have already said, Dallas wants to dump salary not swap it. In order to trade for Marion we need to send back $9,236,796 in salary to Dallas and cash doesn't count towards that number. At most, we have $3M in non-guaranteed contracts (and I don't think we even have that much) so we'd still need to send another another $6M in salary and I don't know why Dallas would agree to that.

Dallas is below the Cap so salaries do not have to match. I think since we're a Tax Paying team we have to come within 150% correct?

Dallas being under the cap wouldn't really help this trade. There's no minimum amount of salary that we need to take back in a trade but there is a maximum. Because we're over the luxury tax we can only take back 125% of our outgoing salary plus another $100,000. For example, if we were trading out $10M in player salary the most we could take back is $12.6M. Marion's contract for next season is $9,316,796. That means I made a math error earlier and we would need to send out at $7,373,436 in player salary. Any cash doesn't count towards that number and we can't combine our Traded Player Exception with players.

Marion has a trade kicker, which would jack up his salary.

Didn't realize he has a trade kicker. Just did a quick search and it looks like it's 15%. In that case Marion's salary is $10,714,315 and we would need to send out salary totaling $8,491,452.

NardDogNation wrote:On a side, what you're saying is that even if the Knicks found a taker for Steve Novak's contract, we wouldn't be able to swap both his trade exception and our $3million in non-guaranteed contracts for Marion?

Correct, teams over the cap aren't allowed to trade players and exceptions in the same trade.

This new CBA is absurd. I hope Dolan and other big market teams show some balls next time to avoid this nonsense from happening.

They should form there own league with no cap.

knickscity wrote:Anyone who actually took a convo of Toney Douglas as being as compared to Chauncey as serious needs to be slapped...repeatedly.

And for the record Shumpert could probably fetch the number 1 pick in this draft....none of those guys will make any ijmpact in the first two years.

Not that Shumpert is great, more leaning towards how weak this draft really is.

U realize Shump didnt even average 7 points a game this year. U think you could get the #1 pick for him. I would trade him right now to anyone in the Top 8 easy without blinking