tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:It's about team construction. Rarely do teams have true two way players. They have a couple 2 way players and then 1 way players who are adequate at the other end.

The two way players should be the core pieces of your team, the one way players should be specialist, 6th man type players...

This is simply the biggest issue with this team for years. We can't really get to the next level unless the GM focuses like a laser on this principle. You want to bring in guys that are balanced. I would add that it is useful to find guys that fill a role who are also balanced. They won't be great at any one thing, but they can contribute on both ends every night. Players that can thrive in a team concept which is tailor made for the playoffs as well as the regular season.

In the end tho this team needs TALENT. We thought maybe Amar'e would be that other top talent with Melo but he just can't do it with his health issues. Tyson isn't that kind of player, tho he gets paid like one. That only left JR. If your franchise depends on JR to get over the top then your franchise is in trouble!!! The only way this team can get beyond this point is to finally start using the draft to bring in front line talent. Start collecting picks rather than sending them away and really increase the talent you have in your scouting dept. It's like a baseball team with a great minor league program.

EXACTLY.... but right now trying to piece together that type of team with the salaries on board is going to be damn near impossible.. which is why a complete flush while a bold move somewhat will be the smartest move... if you think shumpert has the potential then get another win or PG who can defend and make plays for others....

Tyson chandler is not getting traded, no one is taking that salary and giving up anything we want.. what we can do is hope the blazers are desperate enough to take carmelo, see if we can get batum and Aldridge out of that deal(wishful thinking, I know).. but I would try that.. then you make amare a bench big man until that horrific deal expires, but keep his minutes low and maybe you get a good big off the bench who can have the occasional big game...

now you can throw batum and shumpert at the other teams wing players, your front line will have chandler and LA, along with batum, no defensive weaknesses there.... then draft a pg....keep prigs around, as well.. that is a start....

I just don't see the Knicks trying to move Melo. Right now he's the constant and core of this franchise. They will only look to put pieces around him. They've just invested too much of the identity of the franchise in Melo to go in a different direction. To be honest this team just isn't that far off. This is the NBA and not the NFL. You add 1 or 2 key players and the entire team changes. Let's focus on finding those key players to add to the mix.

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:It's about team construction. Rarely do teams have true two way players. They have a couple 2 way players and then 1 way players who are adequate at the other end.

The two way players should be the core pieces of your team, the one way players should be specialist, 6th man type players...

This is simply the biggest issue with this team for years. We can't really get to the next level unless the GM focuses like a laser on this principle. You want to bring in guys that are balanced. I would add that it is useful to find guys that fill a role who are also balanced. They won't be great at any one thing, but they can contribute on both ends every night. Players that can thrive in a team concept which is tailor made for the playoffs as well as the regular season.

In the end tho this team needs TALENT. We thought maybe Amar'e would be that other top talent with Melo but he just can't do it with his health issues. Tyson isn't that kind of player, tho he gets paid like one. That only left JR. If your franchise depends on JR to get over the top then your franchise is in trouble!!! The only way this team can get beyond this point is to finally start using the draft to bring in front line talent. Start collecting picks rather than sending them away and really increase the talent you have in your scouting dept. It's like a baseball team with a great minor league program.

EXACTLY.... but right now trying to piece together that type of team with the salaries on board is going to be damn near impossible.. which is why a complete flush while a bold move somewhat will be the smartest move... if you think shumpert has the potential then get another win or PG who can defend and make plays for others....

Tyson chandler is not getting traded, no one is taking that salary and giving up anything we want.. what we can do is hope the blazers are desperate enough to take carmelo, see if we can get batum and Aldridge out of that deal(wishful thinking, I know).. but I would try that.. then you make amare a bench big man until that horrific deal expires, but keep his minutes low and maybe you get a good big off the bench who can have the occasional big game...

now you can throw batum and shumpert at the other teams wing players, your front line will have chandler and LA, along with batum, no defensive weaknesses there.... then draft a pg....keep prigs around, as well.. that is a start....

I just don't see the Knicks trying to move Melo. Right now he's the constant and core of this franchise. They will only look to put pieces around him. They've just invested too much of the identity of the franchise in Melo to go in a different direction. To be honest this team just isn't that far off. This is the NBA and not the NFL. You add 1 or 2 key players and the entire team changes. Let's focus on finding those key players to add to the mix.

HENCE the reason why this team will just continue to fall short... you agreed about having two way players be your core piece.. how does carmelo fit that description?

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:It's about team construction. Rarely do teams have true two way players. They have a couple 2 way players and then 1 way players who are adequate at the other end.

The two way players should be the core pieces of your team, the one way players should be specialist, 6th man type players...

This is simply the biggest issue with this team for years. We can't really get to the next level unless the GM focuses like a laser on this principle. You want to bring in guys that are balanced. I would add that it is useful to find guys that fill a role who are also balanced. They won't be great at any one thing, but they can contribute on both ends every night. Players that can thrive in a team concept which is tailor made for the playoffs as well as the regular season.

In the end tho this team needs TALENT. We thought maybe Amar'e would be that other top talent with Melo but he just can't do it with his health issues. Tyson isn't that kind of player, tho he gets paid like one. That only left JR. If your franchise depends on JR to get over the top then your franchise is in trouble!!! The only way this team can get beyond this point is to finally start using the draft to bring in front line talent. Start collecting picks rather than sending them away and really increase the talent you have in your scouting dept. It's like a baseball team with a great minor league program.

EXACTLY.... but right now trying to piece together that type of team with the salaries on board is going to be damn near impossible.. which is why a complete flush while a bold move somewhat will be the smartest move... if you think shumpert has the potential then get another win or PG who can defend and make plays for others....

Tyson chandler is not getting traded, no one is taking that salary and giving up anything we want.. what we can do is hope the blazers are desperate enough to take carmelo, see if we can get batum and Aldridge out of that deal(wishful thinking, I know).. but I would try that.. then you make amare a bench big man until that horrific deal expires, but keep his minutes low and maybe you get a good big off the bench who can have the occasional big game...

now you can throw batum and shumpert at the other teams wing players, your front line will have chandler and LA, along with batum, no defensive weaknesses there.... then draft a pg....keep prigs around, as well.. that is a start....

I just don't see the Knicks trying to move Melo. Right now he's the constant and core of this franchise. They will only look to put pieces around him. They've just invested too much of the identity of the franchise in Melo to go in a different direction. To be honest this team just isn't that far off. This is the NBA and not the NFL. You add 1 or 2 key players and the entire team changes. Let's focus on finding those key players to add to the mix.

HENCE the reason why this team will just continue to fall short... you agreed about having two way players be your core piece.. how does carmelo fit that description?

The problem is that you still have to have an actual CORE. Melo is a player you can base a season on. He's guaranteeing your team a playoff birth. That's the point of having All Stars in your Core. The Knicks starting 5 was Felton, Kidd/Prigs, Shump, Melo & Tyson. Grunwald has to make up his mind about whether Felton/Prigs is the best he can do!!! Can we put a better starting backcourt on the floor than that? Do we move Shump to SG and bring in another SF who can defend but also score at a high rate? Can we get a better starting PG than Felton? Do we keep trying to play Melo at the 4 spot? My guess is that we look to add a stretch 4 who can defend a 4 but also can shoot from deep, thereby making space for Melo to do his thing.

CrushAlot wrote:

tkf wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:It's about team construction. Rarely do teams have true two way players. They have a couple 2 way players and then 1 way players who are adequate at the other end.

The two way players should be the core pieces of your team, the one way players should be specialist, 6th man type players...

This is simply the biggest issue with this team for years. We can't really get to the next level unless the GM focuses like a laser on this principle. You want to bring in guys that are balanced. I would add that it is useful to find guys that fill a role who are also balanced. They won't be great at any one thing, but they can contribute on both ends every night. Players that can thrive in a team concept which is tailor made for the playoffs as well as the regular season.

In the end tho this team needs TALENT. We thought maybe Amar'e would be that other top talent with Melo but he just can't do it with his health issues. Tyson isn't that kind of player, tho he gets paid like one. That only left JR. If your franchise depends on JR to get over the top then your franchise is in trouble!!! The only way this team can get beyond this point is to finally start using the draft to bring in front line talent. Start collecting picks rather than sending them away and really increase the talent you have in your scouting dept. It's like a baseball team with a great minor league program.

Unfortunately even with laser focus Grunwald is in a very tough position. With no cap space because of the signings of the previous gmmoron owner and hardly any draft picks he has to hope he can pluck guys from non traditional places that contribute and develop. He has been relatively adept at that in my opinion. Putting together a roster that won 54 games with 3 new starters and 2 new rotation players was impressive. He seems to be looking at young dleague guys and the team is working out guys that might not get drafted let alone picked at 24. I think next years roster will have more youth. I am just not sure Grunwald can overcome the impact of Amare's deal on the cap and Walsh's moves to get the Knicks much better then last year.

fixed

Amare's cap hold is the problem. The Knicks are entering year 3 of a contract that just keeps increasing for a guy that is less and less able to play. The worst part is that it was known that these issues were going to come up and that was why his contract could not be insured.

KNICKS TOOK A RISK ON that I agree, but compounded the problem with the carmelo trade...

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:It's about team construction. Rarely do teams have true two way players. They have a couple 2 way players and then 1 way players who are adequate at the other end.

The two way players should be the core pieces of your team, the one way players should be specialist, 6th man type players...

This is simply the biggest issue with this team for years. We can't really get to the next level unless the GM focuses like a laser on this principle. You want to bring in guys that are balanced. I would add that it is useful to find guys that fill a role who are also balanced. They won't be great at any one thing, but they can contribute on both ends every night. Players that can thrive in a team concept which is tailor made for the playoffs as well as the regular season.

In the end tho this team needs TALENT. We thought maybe Amar'e would be that other top talent with Melo but he just can't do it with his health issues. Tyson isn't that kind of player, tho he gets paid like one. That only left JR. If your franchise depends on JR to get over the top then your franchise is in trouble!!! The only way this team can get beyond this point is to finally start using the draft to bring in front line talent. Start collecting picks rather than sending them away and really increase the talent you have in your scouting dept. It's like a baseball team with a great minor league program.

EXACTLY.... but right now trying to piece together that type of team with the salaries on board is going to be damn near impossible.. which is why a complete flush while a bold move somewhat will be the smartest move... if you think shumpert has the potential then get another win or PG who can defend and make plays for others....

Tyson chandler is not getting traded, no one is taking that salary and giving up anything we want.. what we can do is hope the blazers are desperate enough to take carmelo, see if we can get batum and Aldridge out of that deal(wishful thinking, I know).. but I would try that.. then you make amare a bench big man until that horrific deal expires, but keep his minutes low and maybe you get a good big off the bench who can have the occasional big game...

now you can throw batum and shumpert at the other teams wing players, your front line will have chandler and LA, along with batum, no defensive weaknesses there.... then draft a pg....keep prigs around, as well.. that is a start....

I just don't see the Knicks trying to move Melo. Right now he's the constant and core of this franchise. They will only look to put pieces around him. They've just invested too much of the identity of the franchise in Melo to go in a different direction. To be honest this team just isn't that far off. This is the NBA and not the NFL. You add 1 or 2 key players and the entire team changes. Let's focus on finding those key players to add to the mix.

HENCE the reason why this team will just continue to fall short... you agreed about having two way players be your core piece.. how does carmelo fit that description?

The problem is that you still have to have an actual CORE. Melo is a player you can base a season on. He's guaranteeing your team a playoff birth. That's the point of having All Stars in your Core. The Knicks starting 5 was Felton, Kidd/Prigs, Shump, Melo & Tyson. Grunwald has to make up his mind about whether Felton/Prigs is the best he can do!!! Can we put a better starting backcourt on the floor than that? Do we move Shump to SG and bring in another SF who can defend but also score at a high rate? Can we get a better starting PG than Felton? Do we keep trying to play Melo at the 4 spot? My guess is that we look to add a stretch 4 who can defend a 4 but also can shoot from deep, thereby making space for Melo to do his thing.

that is not good enough, and honestly you can't say he is guaranteeing your team a playoff birth, but then placing the blame of failing in the playoffs on the "other" players... doesn't work that way...

Do we move Shump to SG and bring in another SF who can defend but also score at a high rate?

why does he have to score at a high rate? if he averaged 19ppg and shot 48%, grabbed 7 boards and dished out 5 dimes, isn't that enough, especially if he was a defensive stud like Deng or George? too much emphasis on scoring...

I think you misunderstood my post entirely. I never placed blame on the other players for failing in the playoffs. I actually think every player has a ceiling and every team has a realistic range of expectation. For this Knicks team most of our role players did what you'd expect except JR. and the expectation for the team was making the ECF's. They didn't get there and I actually place a large part of the blame on WOODY! That's not the entire part of the equation, but it was a huge part of it IMO. Now it is entirely possible to build a team that is so talented that the coach almost doesn't matter, but we didn't have that kind of talent.

As for your other point, I don't understand what your issue is with what I stated, since you are basically describing a player who can score at a "high rate" when you say avg 19 ppg at 48% shooting that's scoring at a high rate!!! Rate is another word for %. So SCORING at a high rate from my point of view mean being efficient. Not taking shots at a high rate, which is chucking!!! That's not scoring at a high rate.

dk7th wrote:if your main guy is not a two-way player-- above average on both sides of the ball-- you're ****ed. melo is not a two-way player so the knicks are ****ed.

i know i know... walsh paid cash for stat and stat is the real problem. this is the latest blame game iteration. but one guy, a non-two way player, we only paid cash for while the other non two-way we paid cash for AND traded away assets for.

isn't there a difference?

The Knicks didnt only pay cash. They moved guys and picks to get cap space. The mc Grady trade was a horrible trade. Good young players were moved or allowed to walk to acquire the cap space that became Felton and stat. If talking about a max guy who was signed despite his contract not being insure able and doctors saying his 2005 surgery would extend his career 5-7 years is what you call the blame game then I think you need to take a second, third and fourth look at things. 22 million a year for a guy that can't play will handicap a franchise in a salary capped sport 8 days a week. If the team gave up a lot to have the ability to acquire a 22 million dollar cap hold they are screwed for the better part of a decade.

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:if your main guy is not a two-way player-- above average on both sides of the ball-- you're ****ed. melo is not a two-way player so the knicks are ****ed.

i know i know... walsh paid cash for stat and stat is the real problem. this is the latest blame game iteration. but one guy, a non-two way player, we only paid cash for while the other non two-way we paid cash for AND traded away assets for.

isn't there a difference?

The Knicks didnt only pay cash. They moved guys and picks to get cap space. The mc Grady trade was a horrible trade. Good young players were moved or allowed to walk to acquire the cap space that became Felton and stat. If talking about a max guy who was signed despite his contract not being insure able and doctors saying his 2005 surgery would extend his career 5-7 years is what you call the blame game then I think you need to take a second, third and fourth look at things. 22 million a year for a guy that can't play will handicap a franchise in a salary capped sport 8 days a week. If the team gave up a lot to have the ability to acquire a 22 million dollar cap hold they are screwed for the better part of a decade.

It's actually amazing that the Knicks were able to still put together a team good enough to contend despite not getting production from Amar'e. I have hope that he'll be able to come back and give us something this year. Both knees have been cleaned out and I hope that with reduced minutes he can make it thru the season and be able to give us some decent minutes in the playoffs next year. I think they really should've just shut him down and cleaned out both knees from the start this year. They keep trying to push thru when maybe it's best to give his knees a break and see if they can heal enough to get 2 more yrs out of them.

In any event I think there's no reason to continue to bash Melo for his game. He is what he is and knowing what he does, we have to build a team around his game which will be able to succeed. I think we need more rebounding for sure. More overall BB IQ. More speed and dynamic players that can come in and give this team a boost like Nate did for the Bulls. JR was filling that role, but we need more than just him. The issues with Shump, Kidd and Prigs not being scorers really limited this team. We actually needed more speed and scoring at times and we didn't have it. We got nothing from White who was supposed to be a speedy, athletic player.

So we've got some spots to fill with guys that can actually give us some production and athletic ability. Imagine this team with a few more guys that are able to do that? Imagine replacing Kidd, White, Sheed n KT with younger more athletic players? It's very doable even with our cap restraints. Get 2 in the draft if we get another pick. Add some D League or undrafted rookies. Sign a FA and we can restock this team with at least better and younger talent than we had last year. They won't have the experience we had, but they should be able to play hard for a full season.

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:if your main guy is not a two-way player-- above average on both sides of the ball-- you're ****ed. melo is not a two-way player so the knicks are ****ed.

i know i know... walsh paid cash for stat and stat is the real problem. this is the latest blame game iteration. but one guy, a non-two way player, we only paid cash for while the other non two-way we paid cash for AND traded away assets for.

isn't there a difference?

The Knicks didnt only pay cash. They moved guys and picks to get cap space. The mc Grady trade was a horrible trade. Good young players were moved or allowed to walk to acquire the cap space that became Felton and stat. If talking about a max guy who was signed despite his contract not being insure able and doctors saying his 2005 surgery would extend his career 5-7 years is what you call the blame game then I think you need to take a second, third and fourth look at things. 22 million a year for a guy that can't play will handicap a franchise in a salary capped sport 8 days a week. If the team gave up a lot to have the ability to acquire a 22 million dollar cap hold they are screwed for the better part of a decade.

It's actually amazing that the Knicks were able to still put together a team good enough to contend despite not getting production from Amar'e. I have hope that he'll be able to come back and give us something this year. Both knees have been cleaned out and I hope that with reduced minutes he can make it thru the season and be able to give us some decent minutes in the playoffs next year. I think they really should've just shut him down and cleaned out both knees from the start this year. They keep trying to push thru when maybe it's best to give his knees a break and see if they can heal enough to get 2 more yrs out of them.

In any event I think there's no reason to continue to bash Melo for his game. He is what he is and knowing what he does, we have to build a team around his game which will be able to succeed. I think we need more rebounding for sure. More overall BB IQ. More speed and dynamic players that can come in and give this team a boost like Nate did for the Bulls. JR was filling that role, but we need more than just him. The issues with Shump, Kidd and Prigs not being scorers really limited this team. We actually needed more speed and scoring at times and we didn't have it. We got nothing from White who was supposed to be a speedy, athletic player.

So we've got some spots to fill with guys that can actually give us some production and athletic ability. Imagine this team with a few more guys that are able to do that? Imagine replacing Kidd, White, Sheed n KT with younger more athletic players? It's very doable even with our cap restraints. Get 2 in the draft if we get another pick. Add some D League or undrafted rookies. Sign a FA and we can restock this team with at least better and younger talent than we had last year. They won't have the experience we had, but they should be able to play hard for a full season.

Tremendous post. You're right on the money. Been saying the same things. It really is doable and we're not that far off at all.

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:if your main guy is not a two-way player-- above average on both sides of the ball-- you're ****ed. melo is not a two-way player so the knicks are ****ed.

i know i know... walsh paid cash for stat and stat is the real problem. this is the latest blame game iteration. but one guy, a non-two way player, we only paid cash for while the other non two-way we paid cash for AND traded away assets for.

isn't there a difference?

The Knicks didnt only pay cash. They moved guys and picks to get cap space. The mc Grady trade was a horrible trade. Good young players were moved or allowed to walk to acquire the cap space that became Felton and stat. If talking about a max guy who was signed despite his contract not being insure able and doctors saying his 2005 surgery would extend his career 5-7 years is what you call the blame game then I think you need to take a second, third and fourth look at things. 22 million a year for a guy that can't play will handicap a franchise in a salary capped sport 8 days a week. If the team gave up a lot to have the ability to acquire a 22 million dollar cap hold they are screwed for the better part of a decade.

It's actually amazing that the Knicks were able to still put together a team good enough to contend despite not getting production from Amar'e. I have hope that he'll be able to come back and give us something this year. Both knees have been cleaned out and I hope that with reduced minutes he can make it thru the season and be able to give us some decent minutes in the playoffs next year. I think they really should've just shut him down and cleaned out both knees from the start this year. They keep trying to push thru when maybe it's best to give his knees a break and see if they can heal enough to get 2 more yrs out of them.

In any event I think there's no reason to continue to bash Melo for his game. He is what he is and knowing what he does, we have to build a team around his game which will be able to succeed. I think we need more rebounding for sure. More overall BB IQ. More speed and dynamic players that can come in and give this team a boost like Nate did for the Bulls. JR was filling that role, but we need more than just him. The issues with Shump, Kidd and Prigs not being scorers really limited this team. We actually needed more speed and scoring at times and we didn't have it. We got nothing from White who was supposed to be a speedy, athletic player.

So we've got some spots to fill with guys that can actually give us some production and athletic ability. Imagine this team with a few more guys that are able to do that? Imagine replacing Kidd, White, Sheed n KT with younger more athletic players? It's very doable even with our cap restraints. Get 2 in the draft if we get another pick. Add some D League or undrafted rookies. Sign a FA and we can restock this team with at least better and younger talent than we had last year. They won't have the experience we had, but they should be able to play hard for a full season.

what did we contend for? we got blitzed in the second round by a team that was also missing one of it's best players...

In any event I think there's no reason to continue to bash Melo for his game. He is what he is and knowing what he does, we have to build a team around his game which will be able to succeed.

my goodness, don't you see the problem with that? It is like saying, " I know the foundation is cracked and falling apart, it is what it is.. with that in mind we need to build a house on this foundation that will stand for 100 years".... really? don't you see a problem with all of this?