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Go after Doc?
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loweyecue
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6/13/2013  7:21 PM
fishmike wrote:
Vmart wrote:
fishmike wrote:
DurzoBlint wrote:
Vmart wrote:
fishmike wrote:
DurzoBlint wrote:I'll respect Doc when he is successful with a team that isn't loaded with talent. Celts sucked ass for years under Doc until Ray and Kevin joined the club. During some of those years, they arguable had more talent to work with than Woodson but, never had any real success. Did Doc ever get them past the 1st round before the big 3?

These things always come full circle dont they. MDA sucks. Get a new coach. Same results. Lets look at new coaches. But lets pick one this time with a track record for winning with mediocre talent because thats what we have. Oh wait... there arent any.

Doc had a great year coaching a nobody team to the playoffs after they cleared all their space for TMac and GHill:
http://basketballreference.com/teams/teamyear.htm?tm=ORL&lg=n&yr=1999

Coaching is silly. End of the day we are built around a couple of 40% volume shooter. CAnt be suprised when the playoffs start and the shots stop falling. Rotate the coach every year. Folks need to realize its not the coach.

Don't blame the 40% shooters for lack of offensive creativity. It was Woody calling for iso Melo. It was Woody who thought he could rehab Smith to be a second option. It was Woody who put the game plan together it was pretty obvious the players were executing his plan and it sucks in the playoffs. I like his defense first approach but Woody has to increase the level of team oriented offensive execution, Woody failed miserably at that.

my take as well. The coach is responsible for offensive schemes. I don't Blame Melo for the Iso Melo game plan because the coach obviously called for it.

in ten years in the league when has Melo been in an offense that wasnt build around Isos for him? Do you realize its the only way he plays? When coaches try other options Melo stops trying. He's admitted it. Stop blaming Woody for a guy's style of play that hasnt changed in 10 years. Its silly

Your head coach basically had no other plan and continue to live and die by his 40% shooters. Keep blaming the 40% shooters for lack of adjustments.

totally disagree. Your way off on this. Did Woody make changes? Did he try to go with size? Did he try to go with shooters? I seem to remember Woody making several adjustments. The problem was the other teams were better. Was more Novak going to win that Pacer's series?

I fail to see your logic here. Spell it out for me... please. Woody changed guards, forwards, he went small he went big... at the end of the day you have a star player this team is built around who is only comfortable playing one way and one style. But thats on the coach? What is Doc Rivers or Phil JAckson going to do?

Woody did an incredible job with JR this year. The guy drastically improved. We had a carosel of injuries and injured players coming back yet again, including the guy who was supposed to be star #1 or #1a or whatever, and the Knicks still win 50+ but the coach sucks?

You guys are unreal. Open your eyes. Look at history. we traded in all our cards to emulate what Denver went through for 7 years. Thats not hate. Thats an observation. What we are seeing is what we have always seen.

If you cant see this is a straight up talent issue. Hibbert and George were must better than Chandler and Melo plain and simple. Chandler did nothing and Melo's answer was what it always is... shoot more.

Its not that complicated

Woody still gets the blame in my opinion along with Melo and JR. I don't care what Melo's preference is it's Woody's job to draw up an offensive scheme and if Melo doesn't play then hold him accountable. You can point at MDA and say how did that work in the past - and I will agree with you that it probably won't work - but that in my opinion doesn't make it the wrong approach. If Woody is out to save his job and do the best he can within a predetermined framework built around a losing approach/philosophy then yeah he did great. But when you run your mouth in the offseason about accountability you can't hide behind lame ass excuses like see what happened to MDA when he tried to draw up an offense.

TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
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loweyecue
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6/13/2013  7:33 PM
nixluva wrote:We need to separate expectations of a roster from actual coaching acumen. Woody wasn't killed for losing. He was killed for not getting the most out of his roster. That's all you can ask of a coach. He didn't build the team, but in the regular season the team played a very good Team oriented style. There was ball and player movement with some ISO mixed in. In the playoffs Woody allowed things to slow to a crawl, with no ball and player movement. The moves Woody made were horrible and went against what was best for the team. He stuck with JR and Kidd too long. Didn't use all his options until it was too late. Basically Woody screwed the pooch in the playoffs. There isn't really anything you can say that he did at a high level.

One last thing on MDA since people keep bringing him up. When he lost STAT for a year in PHX he still won 54 games and got his team to the WCF's with no player over 6-9. That is an example of coaching your team to its highest potential. He had Diaw as his center! That pretty much says it all. That's what i'd love to see from Woody in the playoffs. Figure out what works best for your team and get them to play better than expected or at least as well as their talent suggests.

Now I defended MDA a lot here because he never once had the type of players he needed and the rosters he had were beyond ridiculous. But in the example you give MDA still had the type of players he liked. And he got them to the WCF w/o his main player still a great achievement. But MDA hasn't always gotten the best out if his players. He didn't get the best out of the last Knocks team he coached - because they couldn't/wouldn't do what he wanted. So he was also stubborn about his style. But he was completely transparent about it.

Now Woody by his own statements got EXACTLY the type of players he wanted - in defensive minded veterans. He had two players with Chanpionship rings, he had Kmart and Camby and he also had Melo. Based on that it's a fair comparison to make to MDA going to the WCF and Woody failing spectacukarly in the Leastern conference.

TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
TeamBall
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6/13/2013  8:06 PM
dk7th wrote:
TeamBall wrote:
dk7th wrote:doc rivers will not be interested in coaching carmelo anthony. why should he?

woodson was weak with carmelo. promoting iso ball and not demanding that carmelo stay in shape and defend the opponent's best wing or swing player. i think woodson is a phony. he compromised himself from the beginning when he was forced to fire his agent in order to appease dolan.

that's a recipe for failure.

doc rivers would demand more from anthony and anthony doesn't have the goods to deliver.


Well first off, Woodson called him all summer making sure he got in the best shape of his life. He even went to London at one point cause, according Melo himself, he was ignoring Woodson's phone calls.

Second, why would Melo have to guard the best wing player? Hes not our best defender and he was playing PF anyway so that would put Shump/Brewer on his man which is even worse.

you don't understand-- he is a tweener. he isn't agile enough on defense to guard the better perimeter players and he isn't big enough or strong enough to guard the better post players. on offense he is also a tweener who can occasionally create matchup problems but he is always at a disadvantage defensively. the guy could get away with a lot of stuff during his one year in college-- michael beasley did too-- but he has always had trouble at the nba level. woodson wanted him to get in shape for not only its own sake but because he wanted him to be able to guard the perimeter. you're post seems to be avoiding this central issue. you want the guy with the biggest contract to be a two-way, complete player. he will never be a complete player but he should be a better two-way player. he has never maintained supreme conditioning but woodson is too afraid to call him on it.

doc rivers would not tolerate melo's non-commitment to winning. people want to say he was nothing before the big three well he is something now and i highly doubt he is going to come to a situation like the knicks are in. as jackson said this is a clumsy team.


I certainly agree that he should be more of a complete player. He doesnt get a pass there from me.
You're saying he physically is unable to guard the better perimeter players though so why would Woodon give him that assignment?
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loweyecue
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6/13/2013  8:06 PM
I don't get the logic of making tweaks and hoping we get better incrementally - it doesn't work. It has never worked and will not work. When the Amnesty was available I was calling for Amare to be canned - but I then he was coming off a semi decent season and people were like - you don't do that to the star player. If he plays like this we will be ok - blah blah blah. Two years later most everybody thought we missed the opportunity to get out of his contract using the amnesty.

Doc Rivers is a coach who does get a lot out of his players, has won a championship it's not like there's a bunch of options to choose from. Now people are arguing we should keep Woody and that means we will again repeat our results from this year for the next 2 years. You need to have some degree of foresight and you need to capitalize on what opportunities present themselves. I don't for a minute believe that Woody will EVER coach us to a championship - so I think we should cut our losses early and move on when a good coach is available.

TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
dk7th
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6/13/2013  8:15 PM
TeamBall wrote:
dk7th wrote:
TeamBall wrote:
dk7th wrote:doc rivers will not be interested in coaching carmelo anthony. why should he?

woodson was weak with carmelo. promoting iso ball and not demanding that carmelo stay in shape and defend the opponent's best wing or swing player. i think woodson is a phony. he compromised himself from the beginning when he was forced to fire his agent in order to appease dolan.

that's a recipe for failure.

doc rivers would demand more from anthony and anthony doesn't have the goods to deliver.


Well first off, Woodson called him all summer making sure he got in the best shape of his life. He even went to London at one point cause, according Melo himself, he was ignoring Woodson's phone calls.

Second, why would Melo have to guard the best wing player? Hes not our best defender and he was playing PF anyway so that would put Shump/Brewer on his man which is even worse.

you don't understand-- he is a tweener. he isn't agile enough on defense to guard the better perimeter players and he isn't big enough or strong enough to guard the better post players. on offense he is also a tweener who can occasionally create matchup problems but he is always at a disadvantage defensively. the guy could get away with a lot of stuff during his one year in college-- michael beasley did too-- but he has always had trouble at the nba level. woodson wanted him to get in shape for not only its own sake but because he wanted him to be able to guard the perimeter. you're post seems to be avoiding this central issue. you want the guy with the biggest contract to be a two-way, complete player. he will never be a complete player but he should be a better two-way player. he has never maintained supreme conditioning but woodson is too afraid to call him on it.

doc rivers would not tolerate melo's non-commitment to winning. people want to say he was nothing before the big three well he is something now and i highly doubt he is going to come to a situation like the knicks are in. as jackson said this is a clumsy team.


I certainly agree that he should be more of a complete player. He doesnt get a pass there from me.
You're saying he physically is unable to guard the better perimeter players though so why would Woodon give him that assignment?

you ask a guy to get in the best shape of his life so that he can have the opportunity to elevate his defensive game. he is verrrry slow-footed on the perimeter and his defensive skills are limited because he is simply not lean enough. and he has bad instincts on defense so all the more reason to get in the best shape of his life. he wasn't and he once again underachieved.

how anyone can say his perimeter defense is above average is really absurd.

he is not meant to guard the 4 in this league. no he needs to get in supreme shape, not just good shape.

knicks win 38-43 games in 16-17. rose MUST shoot no more than 14 shots per game, defer to kp6 + melo, and have a usage rate of less than 25%
TeamBall
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6/13/2013  8:20 PM
dk7th wrote:
TeamBall wrote:
dk7th wrote:
TeamBall wrote:
dk7th wrote:doc rivers will not be interested in coaching carmelo anthony. why should he?

woodson was weak with carmelo. promoting iso ball and not demanding that carmelo stay in shape and defend the opponent's best wing or swing player. i think woodson is a phony. he compromised himself from the beginning when he was forced to fire his agent in order to appease dolan.

that's a recipe for failure.

doc rivers would demand more from anthony and anthony doesn't have the goods to deliver.


Well first off, Woodson called him all summer making sure he got in the best shape of his life. He even went to London at one point cause, according Melo himself, he was ignoring Woodson's phone calls.

Second, why would Melo have to guard the best wing player? Hes not our best defender and he was playing PF anyway so that would put Shump/Brewer on his man which is even worse.

you don't understand-- he is a tweener. he isn't agile enough on defense to guard the better perimeter players and he isn't big enough or strong enough to guard the better post players. on offense he is also a tweener who can occasionally create matchup problems but he is always at a disadvantage defensively. the guy could get away with a lot of stuff during his one year in college-- michael beasley did too-- but he has always had trouble at the nba level. woodson wanted him to get in shape for not only its own sake but because he wanted him to be able to guard the perimeter. you're post seems to be avoiding this central issue. you want the guy with the biggest contract to be a two-way, complete player. he will never be a complete player but he should be a better two-way player. he has never maintained supreme conditioning but woodson is too afraid to call him on it.

doc rivers would not tolerate melo's non-commitment to winning. people want to say he was nothing before the big three well he is something now and i highly doubt he is going to come to a situation like the knicks are in. as jackson said this is a clumsy team.


I certainly agree that he should be more of a complete player. He doesnt get a pass there from me.
You're saying he physically is unable to guard the better perimeter players though so why would Woodon give him that assignment?

you ask a guy to get in the best shape of his life so that he can have the opportunity to elevate his defensive game. he is verrrry slow-footed on the perimeter and his defensive skills are limited because he is simply not lean enough. and he has bad instincts on defense so all the more reason to get in the best shape of his life. he wasn't and he once again underachieved.

how anyone can say his perimeter defense is above average is really absurd.

he is not meant to guard the 4 in this league. no he needs to get in supreme shape, not just good shape.


You're jumping around here a little bit. Your initial post criticized Woodson for not demanding that Melo get in shape. He did all last summer. I think hes a decent defender but a little lazy. I definitely do not want him guarding the other team's best wing player though. He'd be abused. Thats why I dont get what you're blaming Woodson for as far as not putting him on the other team's wing. You stated yourself that hes not good enough on defense to do it also.
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nixluva
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6/13/2013  8:37 PM
loweyecue wrote:
nixluva wrote:We need to separate expectations of a roster from actual coaching acumen. Woody wasn't killed for losing. He was killed for not getting the most out of his roster. That's all you can ask of a coach. He didn't build the team, but in the regular season the team played a very good Team oriented style. There was ball and player movement with some ISO mixed in. In the playoffs Woody allowed things to slow to a crawl, with no ball and player movement. The moves Woody made were horrible and went against what was best for the team. He stuck with JR and Kidd too long. Didn't use all his options until it was too late. Basically Woody screwed the pooch in the playoffs. There isn't really anything you can say that he did at a high level.

One last thing on MDA since people keep bringing him up. When he lost STAT for a year in PHX he still won 54 games and got his team to the WCF's with no player over 6-9. That is an example of coaching your team to its highest potential. He had Diaw as his center! That pretty much says it all. That's what i'd love to see from Woody in the playoffs. Figure out what works best for your team and get them to play better than expected or at least as well as their talent suggests.

Now I defended MDA a lot here because he never once had the type of players he needed and the rosters he had were beyond ridiculous. But in the example you give MDA still had the type of players he liked. And he got them to the WCF w/o his main player still a great achievement. But MDA hasn't always gotten the best out if his players. He didn't get the best out of the last Knocks team he coached - because they couldn't/wouldn't do what he wanted. So he was also stubborn about his style. But he was completely transparent about it.

Now Woody by his own statements got EXACTLY the type of players he wanted - in defensive minded veterans. He had two players with Chanpionship rings, he had Kmart and Camby and he also had Melo. Based on that it's a fair comparison to make to MDA going to the WCF and Woody failing spectacukarly in the Leastern conference.

I agree with everything you say except that it really is a DUMB thing to go against the strengths of your coach which is what they did with MDA. They should've just fired him and moved on rather than have him coach a team that they knew wasn't his thing. No PG with a ISO player as the only real option and in a lockout shortened season to boot. It's something the Lakers did as well. MDA did make adjustments in NY and in LA, but really it's hard to go too far away from what you feel is right as a coach.

Woody got his way as he should've. A GM should support his coach. My issue isn't with the roster, cuz to me that's beside the point of this discussion. Every team has it's realistic ceiling. For most of I think ECF's was the ceiling of the Knicks. Woody did such a horrible job in the playoffs that it's not even a debate. This isn't about whether he won or lost, but how the team PLAYED in the wins and losses. WHY is this so hard for some to understand (not you specifically loweyecue). We should be measuring the actual job that Woody did regardless of the talent on the court in comparison to the Pacers. What specifically did Woody choose to do that either helped or hurt his team?

IMO fans and media alike had major issues with the decisions Woody made. Is this even an dispute? Playing JR and Kidd too much, Prigs, Cope and Shump too little. Going big when we had never played that lineup before. Allowing the team to play slow rather than pushing the ball and getting into our ball and player movement, quick passing offense. Not playing Camby or even dressing Barron. Just a ton of different things that made no sense.

jrodmc
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6/14/2013  10:39 AM
fishmike wrote:JRod... didnt he do a decent job in Orlando until TMac quit on him? The year before they signed TMac and Hill they made the playoffs with NOBODY.

Doc: mediocre talent->mediocre results. Great talent->great results

Woody coached the Knicks to a high seed. What happened in the playoffs is the same thing to happen to all the coaches who have coached this group.

Whats the barometer for Woody's failure? How can anyone say this group should have done better?

fish, so Doc's a mediocre coach who gets all but swept in the first round unless he's got great talent. Then he's great.

Were the Knicks loaded this past season? Was Doc taking this level of talent beyond the 1st round? I don't see it. Doc's resume right now is based on the Big Three, and the obviously short window they provided. Fun while it lasted, when Rondo's not hurt.

He's not an upgrade over Woodson in the situation we find ourselves in. He'd be a change for the sake of change. If we hadn't shown improvement over the past two seasons, especially with the hodgepodge roster of 50% alzheimer's patients this past season, I'd be all in for trying to get JVG or PhilJax or maybe prying Thibs away, but Doc?

BasketballJones
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6/14/2013  1:30 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/14/2013  1:32 PM
Sleepy, Grumpy, Dopey.... Anybody but Doc.
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Nalod
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6/14/2013  2:44 PM
jrodmc wrote:
fishmike wrote:JRod... didnt he do a decent job in Orlando until TMac quit on him? The year before they signed TMac and Hill they made the playoffs with NOBODY.

Doc: mediocre talent->mediocre results. Great talent->great results

Woody coached the Knicks to a high seed. What happened in the playoffs is the same thing to happen to all the coaches who have coached this group.

Whats the barometer for Woody's failure? How can anyone say this group should have done better?

fish, so Doc's a mediocre coach who gets all but swept in the first round unless he's got great talent. Then he's great.

Were the Knicks loaded this past season? Was Doc taking this level of talent beyond the 1st round? I don't see it. Doc's resume right now is based on the Big Three, and the obviously short window they provided. Fun while it lasted, when Rondo's not hurt.

He's not an upgrade over Woodson in the situation we find ourselves in. He'd be a change for the sake of change. If we hadn't shown improvement over the past two seasons, especially with the hodgepodge roster of 50% alzheimer's patients this past season, I'd be all in for trying to get JVG or PhilJax or maybe prying Thibs away, but Doc?

Wait, you guys are saying the same thing.

And yeah, if you got great talent, your gonna win!

JVG is not an elite coach. He was good coach.

Phil Jax is the greatest coach of all time! It would be fun to see him impact any team, let alone the knicks! I wonder how Melo would respond to the greatest coach of all time? The one that harnessed the crazy that was Jordan, or "Mamba" out of Kobe? Would Melo embrace it or reject it?

I don't know nor could anyone really either.

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6/15/2013  5:47 AM
You really think Grunwald's and (most importantly) Isiah's best friend is going to get fired any time soon? We're in for a long ride, my friend!
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Jmpasq
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6/15/2013  8:15 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:I think we should get a new coach every season

Just 1?

Check out My NFL Draft Prospect Videos at Youtube User Pages Jmpasq,JPdraftjedi,Jmpasqdraftjedi. www.Draftbreakdown.com
Bonn1997
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6/15/2013  8:23 AM
Jmpasq wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:I think we should get a new coach every season

Just 1?


1 to 4
knicks1248
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6/15/2013  9:01 AM
Nalod wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
fishmike wrote:JRod... didnt he do a decent job in Orlando until TMac quit on him? The year before they signed TMac and Hill they made the playoffs with NOBODY.

Doc: mediocre talent->mediocre results. Great talent->great results

Woody coached the Knicks to a high seed. What happened in the playoffs is the same thing to happen to all the coaches who have coached this group.

Whats the barometer for Woody's failure? How can anyone say this group should have done better?

fish, so Doc's a mediocre coach who gets all but swept in the first round unless he's got great talent. Then he's great.

Were the Knicks loaded this past season? Was Doc taking this level of talent beyond the 1st round? I don't see it. Doc's resume right now is based on the Big Three, and the obviously short window they provided. Fun while it lasted, when Rondo's not hurt.

He's not an upgrade over Woodson in the situation we find ourselves in. He'd be a change for the sake of change. If we hadn't shown improvement over the past two seasons, especially with the hodgepodge roster of 50% alzheimer's patients this past season, I'd be all in for trying to get JVG or PhilJax or maybe prying Thibs away, but Doc?

Wait, you guys are saying the same thing.

And yeah, if you got great talent, your gonna win!

JVG is not an elite coach. He was good coach.

Phil Jax is the greatest coach of all time! It would be fun to see him impact any team, let alone the knicks! I wonder how Melo would respond to the greatest coach of all time? The one that harnessed the crazy that was Jordan, or "Mamba" out of Kobe? Would Melo embrace it or reject it?

I don't know nor could anyone really either.


How could people say that Phil is the greatest coach, then say you need great players to make a great coach, and phil has had 1st ballot HOF players during his coaching career.

Your right, I would love to see phil coach a avg team to the finals, you think if Woodson had a young shaq and kobe, or pip and MJ he wouldn't make it to the finals on a regular..

When I watch that Spike documentry on kobe, and I see Kobe in the locker room at half time of a game giving out instuctions and talking to the team while Phil is in the back round listening, it makes me wonder.

When I see MDA on the side line asking Steve nash what he wants to run, you start to wonder how much impact a coach really has with out having great players

ES
jrodmc
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6/17/2013  9:24 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:I think we should get a new coach every season

Just 1?


1 to 4

You should expand your sample size. Imagine the possibilities.

Markji
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6/17/2013  11:05 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
Nalod wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
fishmike wrote:JRod... didnt he do a decent job in Orlando until TMac quit on him? The year before they signed TMac and Hill they made the playoffs with NOBODY.

Doc: mediocre talent->mediocre results. Great talent->great results

Woody coached the Knicks to a high seed. What happened in the playoffs is the same thing to happen to all the coaches who have coached this group.

Whats the barometer for Woody's failure? How can anyone say this group should have done better?

fish, so Doc's a mediocre coach who gets all but swept in the first round unless he's got great talent. Then he's great.

Were the Knicks loaded this past season? Was Doc taking this level of talent beyond the 1st round? I don't see it. Doc's resume right now is based on the Big Three, and the obviously short window they provided. Fun while it lasted, when Rondo's not hurt.

He's not an upgrade over Woodson in the situation we find ourselves in. He'd be a change for the sake of change. If we hadn't shown improvement over the past two seasons, especially with the hodgepodge roster of 50% alzheimer's patients this past season, I'd be all in for trying to get JVG or PhilJax or maybe prying Thibs away, but Doc?

Wait, you guys are saying the same thing.

And yeah, if you got great talent, your gonna win!

JVG is not an elite coach. He was good coach.

Phil Jax is the greatest coach of all time! It would be fun to see him impact any team, let alone the knicks! I wonder how Melo would respond to the greatest coach of all time? The one that harnessed the crazy that was Jordan, or "Mamba" out of Kobe? Would Melo embrace it or reject it?

I don't know nor could anyone really either.


How could people say that Phil is the greatest coach, then say you need great players to make a great coach, and phil has had 1st ballot HOF players during his coaching career.

Your right, I would love to see phil coach a avg team to the finals, you think if Woodson had a young shaq and kobe, or pip and MJ he wouldn't make it to the finals on a regular..

When I watch that Spike documentry on kobe, and I see Kobe in the locker room at half time of a game giving out instuctions and talking to the team while Phil is in the back round listening, it makes me wonder.

When I see MDA on the side line asking Steve nash what he wants to run, you start to wonder how much impact a coach really has with out having great players


jrod - I agree with you on your comparison of Woody to Doc. About the same and we don't need to change just for the sake of change. We won 54 games this year and came in 2nd in the east. Give Woody some credit. Give Grunwald some credit. And give the team some credit - yes even the over the hill gang. Overall they played great.

Nalod - usually I agree with you but not on Phil Jax. Phil is the greatest coach who can handle the superstar players to get them to drop their individual egos and play as a team to win. So I'd say the 2nd greatest coach. The greatest coach was Red Auerbach. He created so much in the early days of the NBA and made good players great and good teams winners.

Knicks1248- You are right but the technique of MDA(with Nash) and Phil Jax holds when dealing with Superstars. You don't but heads with them. Let them have some authority and support them. Give them confidence. Give them direction to play team ball. Sounds simple, but so many coaches can't do that.

The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
Go after Doc?

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