knickscity wrote:

tkf wrote:

knickscity wrote:

holfresh wrote:

playa2 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

playa2 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

holfresh wrote:Maybe Woodson should have Chandler work on his three point shooting so he gets proficient at it like Bosh, that way next time Knick play the Pacers, we can have Chandler camp out at the three point line like Bosh..Isn't that why Hibbert was on the bench at the end of the game, they were afraid Bosh would blow by him on the way to the hoop??

I came in here to say this. Before Hibbert was taken out, the Heat had torched him on a few plays earlier by pulling him away from the basket to guard Bosh. Your only as smart as the roster you have at your disposal....We didn't have the players to exploit the slow footed Hibbert and pull him away from the basket....

Chris Copeland played Center for the Knicks during the season , but Woody did not use that strategy against Hibbert.

Sometimes you make your opponent match up with you.

And what would Hibbert do to Copeland on the blocks???..And who will Novak defend??.No one is the answer...

I guess it's the way you see it.

I would ask what would Hibbert do with Copeland knocking down 3's in his grill or blowing by him dunking the ball when he's forced to defend him outside the paint.

3 points are more than 2. Vogel basically said You could have took Hibbert out of the game defensively , but you didn't know how to exploit it.

After 10 years of misery Woodson took this miserable franchise to respectability, 73-34 regular season and what does the Knick fan do...Whine...Ungrateful...Last year under MDA, we were definitely not making the playoffs..Woodson took over and we made the playoffs ...Following year we won 54 games and made it to the second round..Some would say that's progress..Any thanks Woody???..No..Insults...

You're entitled to view this season as a success, nothing wrong with that.

For me I dont compare teams of different eras, because the players are not the same and neither is the coaching staff or upper management.

This team had a well-known bar....ECF vs the Miami Heat.

The Heat are in the ECF, but they are not playing the new York Knicks.

good point and had this been a young team, that was building towards the future, then maybe you could see this season as a success and a stepping stone.. but this was a win now team, that didn't win or come close, so...... it pretty much speaks for itself..

I only call it a failed season because they didn't reach their goal, which most of the players allude to.

Doesn't matter if they are young or old to me, if you dont reach your set goal, you failed thus a failure.

Now if they had just set the goal to at least win a playoff series and everything else is bonus material, they yeah...success, but they didn't do that from the start.

I'm pretty sure a team such as Houston or Golden State would view their season as a success, because their goal wasn't as high, mainly due to the youth and inexperience.

But a team such as the Thunder would call their season a failure...higher goals.

Doesn't matter if they are young or old to me, if you dont reach your set goal, you failed thus a failure

and most times that usually coincides with the age and how teams were put together..

I'm pretty sure a team such as Houston or Golden State would view their season as a success, because their goal wasn't as high, mainly due to the youth and inexperience.

which is why it does matter if they are young or old.. usually there are different expectations when it comes to older and younger teams..

knickscity wrote:

tkf wrote:

knickscity wrote:

tkf wrote:

knickscity wrote:

VCoug wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Yes, Frank Vogel.

Couldn't cut it in Div 1 basketball.
Got a job splicing tapes.
Parlayed rinsing Pitino's jock strap into gaining entrance into the coach's old boy's club.
Has talked his way into the head coaching ranks.
Talks alot.

Yes, that Frank Vogel.

Mike Woodson. ex-NBA player. Has coached in quite of few more playoff games than Vogel has.

I'm sure Mike Woodson is worried about the brilliant insights of Juniata College's Big Mouth on Campus.

Maybe talking about Woody is better than trying to talk about "The Layup"?

Lol, really? How about this:

Frank Vogel career 111-74 regular season record and 15-14 playoff record.

Mike Woodson career 278-320 regular season record and 18-28 playoff record.

Spo>Pop with this analogy.

Pop 128-79 playoffs .618%

Spo 42-23 playoffs .652%

nice try, but you also have to count the amount of rings pops have...

there is a huge disparity between vogel and woodson..

Not my analogy, but if you counts rings Vogel has none.

exactly, and neither does woodson as a head coach so when you look at the disparity in records, I would not be so quick to knock vogel....

I know this wasn't your analogy or point, just pretty much agreeing with vcoug....

Better overall talent will always propel a coach...Phil with awesome talent=great, without it, not so much.

The Pacers have overall better talent, not totally surprised with the win.

and that's all I am saying.. I am not the biggest woodson fan, but in all fairness, what was he to do? he was somewhat limited....

smackeddog wrote:Whether you agree with his criticism or not, this is a low, low class move. He's getting ripped for a daft decision, so instead of taking responsibilty he desperately tries to defelct attention by insulting a coach who isn't even in the playoffs anymore. Big break of the coaches code there. Pathetic!

holfresh wrote:

playa2 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

playa2 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

holfresh wrote:Maybe Woodson should have Chandler work on his three point shooting so he gets proficient at it like Bosh, that way next time Knick play the Pacers, we can have Chandler camp out at the three point line like Bosh..Isn't that why Hibbert was on the bench at the end of the game, they were afraid Bosh would blow by him on the way to the hoop??

I came in here to say this. Before Hibbert was taken out, the Heat had torched him on a few plays earlier by pulling him away from the basket to guard Bosh. Your only as smart as the roster you have at your disposal....We didn't have the players to exploit the slow footed Hibbert and pull him away from the basket....

Chris Copeland played Center for the Knicks during the season , but Woody did not use that strategy against Hibbert.

Sometimes you make your opponent match up with you.

And what would Hibbert do to Copeland on the blocks???..And who will Novak defend??.No one is the answer...

I guess it's the way you see it.

I would ask what would Hibbert do with Copeland knocking down 3's in his grill or blowing by him dunking the ball when he's forced to defend him outside the paint.

3 points are more than 2. Vogel basically said You could have took Hibbert out of the game defensively , but you didn't know how to exploit it.

After 10 years of misery Woodson took this miserable franchise to respectability, 73-34 regular season and what does the Knick fan do...Whine...Ungrateful...Last year under MDA, we were definitely not making the playoffs..Woodson took over and we made the playoffs ...Following year we won 54 games and made it to the second round..Some would say that's progress..Any thanks Woody???..No..Insults...

The goal is to win a championship, not a damn division titile.

You see you have some fans like you that are happy with a good regular season, whoo..hoo..pop the champagne!! maybe we can get out the 1 st round

Then you have the fans like myself that anything less then a trip to the finals is a avg season..
especially when your star player is getting older but not wiser..

AnubisADL wrote:@tkf

He tries so hard it is funny.

tkf wrote:

Vmart wrote:Object of inserting Copeland, Amare and Barron would have been to exploit Hibberts defensive weakness which is to pull him away from the basket. Chandler, Martin did none of that. The game plan that Woody implemented played right into the Pacers strengths. He allowed Hibbert to become an anchor on defense.

In the playoffs you are only going to see good and great coaches. This where coaches have to elevate their game of coaching to higher levels making adjustments on the fly is one criteria. Knowing how to exploit opposing teams weaknesses and knowing the other teams strengths. I felt that Woody didn't do any of this.

Woody is a good coach, he can learn from this debacle make himself stronger next year, if he can't get it done then it's time to move on. 54 wins with all the injuries is something that should not be over looked he did well. Playoffs are playoffs if the result next year are the same then a coaching change maybe needed.

LET ME ask this Vmart, now I am not saying woody is a good coach or made all the right decisions... but are you telling me, you would trade having no one at all to stop hibbert for jumpers from copeland , amare and Barron? really.... i think indy would have loved that.. because they would have dumped the ball into Hibbert every time, and if you think he was a monster before, well he would have looked like wilt vs those guys... kenyon and Chandler really could not guard him, but they made him work a bit.. it could have been worse.. I just don't like the implications by some or a few that woodson blew this series.. I think that is being delusional, not saying this is your view, but the pacers were just better.. I am not a big fan of woodson, but his choices were limited. you can only exploit a teams weakness to the extent of what you have..

Playoffs are playoffs if the result next year are the same then a coaching change maybe needed.

as well as a player overhaul as I think both the coach and the roster are equally flawed... to be fair..

I'm not implicating that Woody lost the series but he was definitely one of the main reasons though. Yes I wanted Amare and Barron to play center more Barron is 7' can stretch the floor and take Hibbert out of his comfort zone. Amare should have been given more minutes as he can also stretch the floor and he was probably the best on defense vs Hibbert. Another thing is Hibbert just didn't have to work hard on defense because he didn't have to guard Chandler and Martin just be in their vicinity. The Knicks got out rebounded and last I looked Barron was pretty damn good at rebounding for the Knicks. Didn't understand why Camby was activated over Barron that left me scratching my head because Woody had absolutely no intention of playing Camby. Now if Camby is injured why even have him on the bench another bad coaching decision. Playing Kidd heavy minutes when he was giving very little night in and out. At least Barron was healthy. Couldn't understand continuously banging his head with JR Smith when he was cold he could have played Copeland. Didn't understand the need to go predictable with iso Melo he did this in Altlanta with Joe Johnson.

The Pacers series opened my eyes to Woody's limitations as a coach. I have seen Phil Jackson goto the end of the bench in the playoffs, I couldn't understand why Woody was having so much trouble doing this.

Woody gets another year because of the 54 win season, that was a masterful job especially with all the injuries. The playoffs though is another beast. The coach has to elevate, there are a lot of people here that say that the coach can't shoot for the players but he could sure damn pull them from the game. The coach has more input on the game than some think.

playa2 wrote:

Now it comes out from the opponent , what I have said all along the Knicks were the better team but were out coached.

From Indiana coach Frank Vogel:

"They had a more intelligent plan against Roy Hibbert than New York did and we've got to adjust to it," Vogel told reporters with the Pacers in Miami. "It was effective [Wednesday night] and we've got to adjust to it."

It's unclear if Vogel meant it as a direct criticism of Woodson, but it's hard to misinterpret his words: he was ripping the Knicks' offensive scheme against Hibbert.

The Knicks allowed Hibbert to camp out in the paint on defense in their second-round series. In doing so, Hibbert made life difficult for the Knicks at the rim. He had 19 blocks in six games and was able to help the Pacers control the boards (Indiana outrebounded New York by 10.4 rebounds per game).

Woodson at times drew Hibbert from the paint by placing shooters such as Chris Copeland on the floor, but he did not use that strategy often.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How could we as fans see and know this but a GUY GETTING PAID MILLIONS NOT ?

Vogel wasn't the only observer to critique Woodson's coaching performance against the Pacers.

Woodson also took criticism for failing to play Copeland until the final two games of the series. Woodson also went with a bigger starting lineup in Game 4 of the series; the move backfired, as the Knicks lost by 11 and were crushed on the boards.

"I really haven't heard the criticism because I don't read it that much," Woodson said on Monday. "I'm my own biggest critic."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HE NEEDS TO READ ULTIMATEKNICKS !

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/44988/frank-vogel-criticizes-woodson

Vogel rips woodson, and the Heat tears Vogel a new voghole.

holfresh wrote:

playa2 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

holfresh wrote:Maybe Woodson should have Chandler work on his three point shooting so he gets proficient at it like Bosh, that way next time Knick play the Pacers, we can have Chandler camp out at the three point line like Bosh..Isn't that why Hibbert was on the bench at the end of the game, they were afraid Bosh would blow by him on the way to the hoop??

I came in here to say this. Before Hibbert was taken out, the Heat had torched him on a few plays earlier by pulling him away from the basket to guard Bosh. Your only as smart as the roster you have at your disposal....We didn't have the players to exploit the slow footed Hibbert and pull him away from the basket....

Chris Copeland played Center for the Knicks during the season , but Woody did not use that strategy against Hibbert.

Sometimes you make your opponent match up with you.

And what would Hibbert do to Copeland on the blocks???..And who will Novak defend??.No one is the answer...

nycisgreat wrote:

playa2 wrote:

Now it comes out from the opponent , what I have said all along the Knicks were the better team but were out coached.

From Indiana coach Frank Vogel:

"They had a more intelligent plan against Roy Hibbert than New York did and we've got to adjust to it," Vogel told reporters with the Pacers in Miami. "It was effective [Wednesday night] and we've got to adjust to it."

It's unclear if Vogel meant it as a direct criticism of Woodson, but it's hard to misinterpret his words: he was ripping the Knicks' offensive scheme against Hibbert.

The Knicks allowed Hibbert to camp out in the paint on defense in their second-round series. In doing so, Hibbert made life difficult for the Knicks at the rim. He had 19 blocks in six games and was able to help the Pacers control the boards (Indiana outrebounded New York by 10.4 rebounds per game).

Woodson at times drew Hibbert from the paint by placing shooters such as Chris Copeland on the floor, but he did not use that strategy often.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How could we as fans see and know this but a GUY GETTING PAID MILLIONS NOT ?

Vogel wasn't the only observer to critique Woodson's coaching performance against the Pacers.

Woodson also took criticism for failing to play Copeland until the final two games of the series. Woodson also went with a bigger starting lineup in Game 4 of the series; the move backfired, as the Knicks lost by 11 and were crushed on the boards.

"I really haven't heard the criticism because I don't read it that much," Woodson said on Monday. "I'm my own biggest critic."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HE NEEDS TO READ ULTIMATEKNICKS !

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/44988/frank-vogel-criticizes-woodson

Vogel rips woodson, and the Heat tears Vogel a new voghole.

Except that Miami didn't rip Indy, they won on a last second shot in OT.

playa2 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Vmart wrote:Object of inserting Copeland, Amare and Barron would have been to exploit Hibberts defensive weakness which is to pull him away from the basket. Chandler, Martin did none of that. The game plan that Woody implemented played right into the Pacers strengths. He allowed Hibbert to become an anchor on defense.

In the playoffs you are only going to see good and great coaches. This where coaches have to elevate their game of coaching to higher levels making adjustments on the fly is one criteria. Knowing how to exploit opposing teams weaknesses and knowing the other teams strengths. I felt that Woody didn't do any of this.

Woody is a good coach, he can learn from this debacle make himself stronger next year, if he can't get it done then it's time to move on. 54 wins with all the injuries is something that should not be over looked he did well. Playoffs are playoffs if the result next year are the same then a coaching change maybe needed.

LET ME ask this Vmart, now I am not saying woody is a good coach or made all the right decisions... but are you telling me, you would trade having no one at all to stop hibbert for jumpers from copeland , amare and Barron? really.... i think indy would have loved that.. because they would have dumped the ball into Hibbert every time, and if you think he was a monster before, well he would have looked like wilt vs those guys... kenyon and Chandler really could not guard him, but they made him work a bit.. it could have been worse.. I just don't like the implications by some or a few that woodson blew this series.. I think that is being delusional, not saying this is your view, but the pacers were just better.. I am not a big fan of woodson, but his choices were limited. you can only exploit a teams weakness to the extent of what you have..

Playoffs are playoffs if the result next year are the same then a coaching change maybe needed.

as well as a player overhaul as I think both the coach and the roster are equally flawed... to be fair..

As I watched the knicks series vs the Pacers, when Hibbert passed out of the double team his teammates were knocking down momentum changing 3 pt shots. Now if Hibbert was allowed to score ok, but his teammates wouldn't have been so wide open from downtown. So giving up 2 pts instead of 3 would be to our advantage. As I said those open 3's for the Pacers were always at a time when the knicks would make a run and they would steal the momentum back.

Woodson didn't put this team in the best possible position to win and along with player error it just made it look like Indiana was so much better than what they really were.

We actually gave Hibbert more confidence with our coaching strategy and we didn't have to do that.

SO WHAT you are saying playa is that you would have let hibbert continue to shoot and score down low at close to a 50% clip then indy take threes and they were barely cracking 30% in the series I think..( need to check, but I think that is close)

I never understood your basketball logic or lack thereof playa... but why would you want Hibbert going against the likes of amare or Copeland in the post? do you really think it is a good idea to concede inside points like that? really? how is that smart? and you have the nerve to complain about woodson?

It wasn't the open threes that killed the knicks, it was the offensive rebounds, and points in the paint that did them in playa.. that was huge...