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NardDogNation
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5/19/2013  12:19 AM
For those wanting to get rid of Woodson, are there any significant upgrades available? Can't think of any certifiable championship caliber coach we can get outside of Phil Jackson and he seems to be more interested in a front office job/padding his wallet.
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JamesKPolk
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5/19/2013  12:20 AM    LAST EDITED: 5/19/2013  12:20 AM
NardDogNation wrote:For those wanting to get rid of Woodson, are there any significant upgrades available? Can't think of any certifiable championship caliber coach we can get outside of Phil Jackson and he seems to be more interested in a front office job/padding his wallet.

Certifiable upgrades? Sure. Anyone not named Woodson.

I'd give highly-touted assistants like Brian Shaw or Michael Malone a chance over a tired retread like Woodson.

"Peace, plenty, and contentment reign throughout our borders, and our beloved country presents a sublime moral spectacle to the world." - James K Polk
NardDogNation
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5/19/2013  12:23 AM
JamesKPolk wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:For those wanting to get rid of Woodson, are there any significant upgrades available? Can't think of any certifiable championship caliber coach we can get outside of Phil Jackson and he seems to be more interested in a front office job/padding his wallet.

Certifiable upgrades? Sure. Anyone not named Woodson.

I'd give highly-touted assistants like Brian Shaw or Michael Malone a chance over a tired retread like Woodson.


LOL, I hear what you're saying, BELIEVE ME, but I don't want to make change for change's sake. At this point, we don't need a guy like Woody who is learning on the job, which is why I asked for a championship caliber coach. That being said, I've always been intrigued by the potential of this team to run the triangle and wonder what Brian Shaw can do for us in that department.
CrushAlot
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5/19/2013  12:26 AM
I heard an interview on the radio today with a guy from nba tv who said that the Knicks really weren't that good and that Woodson had done an incredible job coaching up the team and managing personalities. I agree but think he will have a better, more cohesive roster next year.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
NardDogNation
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5/19/2013  12:35 AM
CrushAlot wrote:I heard an interview on the radio today with a guy from nba tv who said that the Knicks really weren't that good and that Woodson had done an incredible job coaching up the team and managing personalities. I agree but think he will have a better, more cohesive roster next year.

I don't think the problem is that Woodson is a bad coach. That much is reflected in his success with both the Hawks and Knicks during the regular season when his predecessors failed. The problem is that he never learns from his mistakes and has the originality of a boy band. That consistency works well for turning a lottery team around but not a contender that makes their living in the playoffs, which is contingent on teams making adjustments and countering their opponents adjustments.

CrushAlot
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5/19/2013  12:48 AM
NardDogNation wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:I heard an interview on the radio today with a guy from nba tv who said that the Knicks really weren't that good and that Woodson had done an incredible job coaching up the team and managing personalities. I agree but think he will have a better, more cohesive roster next year.

I don't think the problem is that Woodson is a bad coach. That much is reflected in his success with both the Hawks and Knicks during the regular season when his predecessors failed. The problem is that he never learns from his mistakes and has the originality of a boy band. That consistency works well for turning a lottery team around but not a contender that makes their living in the playoffs, which is contingent on teams making adjustments and countering their opponents adjustments.

I think you can only coach up hardheaded guys do much. JR fell apart and is probably the biggest reason for the Knicks not advancing. Tyson and kidd's epic post season collapses didnt help. I hope the Knicks move Tyson. Guy singlehanded my lost this series for the Knicks and keeps calling everyone else out. He needs to realize fans watch the games

I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
NardDogNation
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5/19/2013  12:54 AM
CrushAlot wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:I heard an interview on the radio today with a guy from nba tv who said that the Knicks really weren't that good and that Woodson had done an incredible job coaching up the team and managing personalities. I agree but think he will have a better, more cohesive roster next year.

I don't think the problem is that Woodson is a bad coach. That much is reflected in his success with both the Hawks and Knicks during the regular season when his predecessors failed. The problem is that he never learns from his mistakes and has the originality of a boy band. That consistency works well for turning a lottery team around but not a contender that makes their living in the playoffs, which is contingent on teams making adjustments and countering their opponents adjustments.

I think you can only coach up hardheaded guys do much. JR fell apart and is probably the biggest reason for the Knicks not advancing. Tyson and kidd's epic post season collapses didnt help. I hope the Knicks move Tyson. Guy singlehanded my lost this series for the Knicks and keeps calling everyone else out. He needs to realize fans watch the games

And I think his refusal to bench Kidd and limit Chandler's and Smith's minutes is reflective of his inability to adjust a gameplan. In years past we could've made the argument that we didn't have depth but playing someone like Kidd came at the expense of minutes for guys like Copeland and Prigioni who both nearly turned around this series for us. People complain about Marcus Camby being hurt but I wouldn't be surprised if Woodson kept him benched since he never incorporated Camby into the gameplan during the season.

CrushAlot
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5/19/2013  1:00 AM
NardDogNation wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:I heard an interview on the radio today with a guy from nba tv who said that the Knicks really weren't that good and that Woodson had done an incredible job coaching up the team and managing personalities. I agree but think he will have a better, more cohesive roster next year.

I don't think the problem is that Woodson is a bad coach. That much is reflected in his success with both the Hawks and Knicks during the regular season when his predecessors failed. The problem is that he never learns from his mistakes and has the originality of a boy band. That consistency works well for turning a lottery team around but not a contender that makes their living in the playoffs, which is contingent on teams making adjustments and countering their opponents adjustments.

I think you can only coach up hardheaded guys do much. JR fell apart and is probably the biggest reason for the Knicks not advancing. Tyson and kidd's epic post season collapses didnt help. I hope the Knicks move Tyson. Guy singlehanded my lost this series for the Knicks and keeps calling everyone else out. He needs to realize fans watch the games

And I think his refusal to bench Kidd and limit Chandler's and Smith's minutes is reflective of his inability to adjust a gameplan. In years past we could've made the argument that we didn't have depth but playing someone like Kidd came at the expense of minutes for guys like Copeland and Prigioni who both nearly turned around this series for us. People complain about Marcus Camby being hurt but I wouldn't be surprised if Woodson kept him benched since he never incorporated Camby into the gameplan during the season.

He pretty much benched Kidd. He was sending jr to the bench for Iman when smith hit a 3. I think Woodson was hoping he could rely on jr like he did for 85 games. I a free about chandler except that Hibbert is 7-2 and weighs 290. Kmart is 6-8 225. He was respectable in his defense but Hibbert could shoot over him at will.

I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
tkf
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5/19/2013  1:05 AM
loweyecue wrote:Championship contenders - NOT EVEN CLOSE
Well coached - NOPE
Good defensive team - HA HA HA
Predictable ISO-heavy stagnant offense, with zero imagination - HELL YES


You must have asuperstar to win
Team with so called superstar - 2-4
Team without a star player (and w/o their Best player) - 4-2
You do the math


SECOND in the EAST - Yeah but we can't beat the Pacers, and we barely beat a injured and hobbled Boston


Greatest closer in the game
Started game on fire, had a lot of help from Shumpert and Cope who were shooting lights out, not able to close.
Completely disappeared in Q4 - I was told some fans would take him over anyone else in the league for last 5 minutes of a game


Returning DPOY
WHO???


Starting PG of the future
0-8 shooting in critical Game 6 loss, I miss John Starks and Charlie Ward

Woodson
All the tough talk about championship contention - tsk tsk
Accountability my @$$ - completely mishandled JR in the playoffs - ZERO accountability
For a greast defensive coach - well his defense actually SUCKS
Less said the better about offense

In retrospect, did exactly what I expected - Good regualr season followed by sucky playoff run. If Rondo wasn't injured probably wouldn't have made it past he first round even if all of our injured players were healthy as well.


good post, but some of us could have told you most of these things were myth... Knick are now what denver was before the carmelo trade, maybe not even as good... seriously go over to a Denver nuggets forum, and ask them how did that work out for them..somehow Dolan felt he could take that Denver mold and make it work here... He is a stubborn fool...

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
tkf
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5/19/2013  1:07 AM    LAST EDITED: 5/19/2013  1:08 AM
nixluva wrote:Grunwald is gonna need to come up with an actual plan for building up the rest of the roster with players that will fill the needs on this team.

1. Melo is still the core piece but after that you really don't have much.
2. Love Shump and expect him to improve next year. He made a really good come back from ACL surgery.
3. Wish we could upgrade the PG spot. Felton is OK, but hes not a real setup PG and Prigs is a solid backup PG.
4. Wish we had a real SG too. JR is just not the answer from what i've seen. I'd like a player we could trust to make good decisions. Just don't know how we get that kind of player.
5. The Bigs situation is really rough. We've got old guys and not much else. our bigs are really weak too.

With all of that said, I don't feel like this team is that far away from being better. It's not like we had nothing working at all. A lot went right. It just seems bad with all these old guys signed to contracts that we can't play and can't trade.

#1 is our main problem bro.. but you guys just fail to see that.. but whatever..

even if you think he is a great basketball player, he is not the kind of guy you build around.. he is extremely difficult to build around and just should not be done...

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
NardDogNation
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5/19/2013  1:12 AM
CrushAlot wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:I heard an interview on the radio today with a guy from nba tv who said that the Knicks really weren't that good and that Woodson had done an incredible job coaching up the team and managing personalities. I agree but think he will have a better, more cohesive roster next year.

I don't think the problem is that Woodson is a bad coach. That much is reflected in his success with both the Hawks and Knicks during the regular season when his predecessors failed. The problem is that he never learns from his mistakes and has the originality of a boy band. That consistency works well for turning a lottery team around but not a contender that makes their living in the playoffs, which is contingent on teams making adjustments and countering their opponents adjustments.

I think you can only coach up hardheaded guys do much. JR fell apart and is probably the biggest reason for the Knicks not advancing. Tyson and kidd's epic post season collapses didnt help. I hope the Knicks move Tyson. Guy singlehanded my lost this series for the Knicks and keeps calling everyone else out. He needs to realize fans watch the games

And I think his refusal to bench Kidd and limit Chandler's and Smith's minutes is reflective of his inability to adjust a gameplan. In years past we could've made the argument that we didn't have depth but playing someone like Kidd came at the expense of minutes for guys like Copeland and Prigioni who both nearly turned around this series for us. People complain about Marcus Camby being hurt but I wouldn't be surprised if Woodson kept him benched since he never incorporated Camby into the gameplan during the season.

He pretty much benched Kidd. He was sending jr to the bench for Iman when smith hit a 3. I think Woodson was hoping he could rely on jr like he did for 85 games. I a free about chandler except that Hibbert is 7-2 and weighs 290. Kmart is 6-8 225. He was respectable in his defense but Hibbert could shoot over him at will.

How long did it take him to bench Kidd though? Remember that Jason hadn't played well for months before we made it to the playoffs and Woodson still was giving him regular minutes. Did Kidd even score this series? If so, in what game? He needs to stop playing favorites because D'Antoni did that and it caused the players to revolt. Woodson is Isiah's man but he won't survive a mutiny.

NardDogNation
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5/19/2013  1:15 AM
tkf wrote:
nixluva wrote:Grunwald is gonna need to come up with an actual plan for building up the rest of the roster with players that will fill the needs on this team.

1. Melo is still the core piece but after that you really don't have much.
2. Love Shump and expect him to improve next year. He made a really good come back from ACL surgery.
3. Wish we could upgrade the PG spot. Felton is OK, but hes not a real setup PG and Prigs is a solid backup PG.
4. Wish we had a real SG too. JR is just not the answer from what i've seen. I'd like a player we could trust to make good decisions. Just don't know how we get that kind of player.
5. The Bigs situation is really rough. We've got old guys and not much else. our bigs are really weak too.

With all of that said, I don't feel like this team is that far away from being better. It's not like we had nothing working at all. A lot went right. It just seems bad with all these old guys signed to contracts that we can't play and can't trade.

#1 is our main problem bro.. but you guys just fail to see that.. but whatever..

even if you think he is a great basketball player, he is not the kind of guy you build around.. he is extremely difficult to build around and just should not be done...

Did you not seem him carrying us this game? At one point he had nearly half the team's points. He has his shortcomings but lets not pretend like any star nk
ot named LeBron, don't.

NardDogNation
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5/19/2013  1:17 AM
tkf wrote:
loweyecue wrote:Championship contenders - NOT EVEN CLOSE
Well coached - NOPE
Good defensive team - HA HA HA
Predictable ISO-heavy stagnant offense, with zero imagination - HELL YES


You must have asuperstar to win
Team with so called superstar - 2-4
Team without a star player (and w/o their Best player) - 4-2
You do the math


SECOND in the EAST - Yeah but we can't beat the Pacers, and we barely beat a injured and hobbled Boston


Greatest closer in the game
Started game on fire, had a lot of help from Shumpert and Cope who were shooting lights out, not able to close.
Completely disappeared in Q4 - I was told some fans would take him over anyone else in the league for last 5 minutes of a game


Returning DPOY
WHO???


Starting PG of the future
0-8 shooting in critical Game 6 loss, I miss John Starks and Charlie Ward

Woodson
All the tough talk about championship contention - tsk tsk
Accountability my @$$ - completely mishandled JR in the playoffs - ZERO accountability
For a greast defensive coach - well his defense actually SUCKS
Less said the better about offense

In retrospect, did exactly what I expected - Good regualr season followed by sucky playoff run. If Rondo wasn't injured probably wouldn't have made it past he first round even if all of our injured players were healthy as well.


good post, but some of us could have told you most of these things were myth... Knick are now what denver was before the carmelo trade, maybe not even as good... seriously go over to a Denver nuggets forum, and ask them how did that work out for them..somehow Dolan felt he could take that Denver mold and make it work here... He is a stubborn fool...

Are Nugget fans still actually on their forum now that its been nearly a month since they've been eliminated?

tkf
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5/19/2013  1:54 AM
NardDogNation wrote:
tkf wrote:
nixluva wrote:Grunwald is gonna need to come up with an actual plan for building up the rest of the roster with players that will fill the needs on this team.

1. Melo is still the core piece but after that you really don't have much.
2. Love Shump and expect him to improve next year. He made a really good come back from ACL surgery.
3. Wish we could upgrade the PG spot. Felton is OK, but hes not a real setup PG and Prigs is a solid backup PG.
4. Wish we had a real SG too. JR is just not the answer from what i've seen. I'd like a player we could trust to make good decisions. Just don't know how we get that kind of player.
5. The Bigs situation is really rough. We've got old guys and not much else. our bigs are really weak too.

With all of that said, I don't feel like this team is that far away from being better. It's not like we had nothing working at all. A lot went right. It just seems bad with all these old guys signed to contracts that we can't play and can't trade.

#1 is our main problem bro.. but you guys just fail to see that.. but whatever..

even if you think he is a great basketball player, he is not the kind of guy you build around.. he is extremely difficult to build around and just should not be done...

Did you not seem him carrying us this game? At one point he had nearly half the team's points. He has his shortcomings but lets not pretend like any star nk
ot named LeBron, don't.

I also saw his chucking bury us for a lot of games this playoffs... if not for shumperts three point spree, this might have not even been close....

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
tkf
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5/19/2013  1:55 AM
NardDogNation wrote:
tkf wrote:
loweyecue wrote:Championship contenders - NOT EVEN CLOSE
Well coached - NOPE
Good defensive team - HA HA HA
Predictable ISO-heavy stagnant offense, with zero imagination - HELL YES


You must have asuperstar to win
Team with so called superstar - 2-4
Team without a star player (and w/o their Best player) - 4-2
You do the math


SECOND in the EAST - Yeah but we can't beat the Pacers, and we barely beat a injured and hobbled Boston


Greatest closer in the game
Started game on fire, had a lot of help from Shumpert and Cope who were shooting lights out, not able to close.
Completely disappeared in Q4 - I was told some fans would take him over anyone else in the league for last 5 minutes of a game


Returning DPOY
WHO???


Starting PG of the future
0-8 shooting in critical Game 6 loss, I miss John Starks and Charlie Ward

Woodson
All the tough talk about championship contention - tsk tsk
Accountability my @$$ - completely mishandled JR in the playoffs - ZERO accountability
For a greast defensive coach - well his defense actually SUCKS
Less said the better about offense

In retrospect, did exactly what I expected - Good regualr season followed by sucky playoff run. If Rondo wasn't injured probably wouldn't have made it past he first round even if all of our injured players were healthy as well.


good post, but some of us could have told you most of these things were myth... Knick are now what denver was before the carmelo trade, maybe not even as good... seriously go over to a Denver nuggets forum, and ask them how did that work out for them..somehow Dolan felt he could take that Denver mold and make it work here... He is a stubborn fool...

Are Nugget fans still actually on their forum now that its been nearly a month since they've been eliminated?

actually they are still there... let me ask you this, will you not be on this forum come june?

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Caseloads
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5/19/2013  2:33 AM
NardDogNation wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:I heard an interview on the radio today with a guy from nba tv who said that the Knicks really weren't that good and that Woodson had done an incredible job coaching up the team and managing personalities. I agree but think he will have a better, more cohesive roster next year.

I don't think the problem is that Woodson is a bad coach. That much is reflected in his success with both the Hawks and Knicks during the regular season when his predecessors failed. The problem is that he never learns from his mistakes and has the originality of a boy band. That consistency works well for turning a lottery team around but not a contender that makes their living in the playoffs, which is contingent on teams making adjustments and countering their opponents adjustments.


+1
Caseloads
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5/19/2013  2:34 AM
NardDogNation wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:I heard an interview on the radio today with a guy from nba tv who said that the Knicks really weren't that good and that Woodson had done an incredible job coaching up the team and managing personalities. I agree but think he will have a better, more cohesive roster next year.

I don't think the problem is that Woodson is a bad coach. That much is reflected in his success with both the Hawks and Knicks during the regular season when his predecessors failed. The problem is that he never learns from his mistakes and has the originality of a boy band. That consistency works well for turning a lottery team around but not a contender that makes their living in the playoffs, which is contingent on teams making adjustments and countering their opponents adjustments.

I think you can only coach up hardheaded guys do much. JR fell apart and is probably the biggest reason for the Knicks not advancing. Tyson and kidd's epic post season collapses didnt help. I hope the Knicks move Tyson. Guy singlehanded my lost this series for the Knicks and keeps calling everyone else out. He needs to realize fans watch the games

And I think his refusal to bench Kidd and limit Chandler's and Smith's minutes is reflective of his inability to adjust a gameplan. In years past we could've made the argument that we didn't have depth but playing someone like Kidd came at the expense of minutes for guys like Copeland and Prigioni who both nearly turned around this series for us. People complain about Marcus Camby being hurt but I wouldn't be surprised if Woodson kept him benched since he never incorporated Camby into the gameplan during the season.


+1
y2zipper
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5/19/2013  3:54 AM
I'm not really in the fire Woodson camp. With Amar'e down, he has to rely on Carmelo Anthony and inconsistent and veteran talent. Can we really be surprised that JR Smith is so streaky or that Jason Kidd ran out of gas? Not really. When JR Smith is supposed to be the second option, you got roster problems. The only way this is ever going to get fixed is if the Knicks either ace the draft or if Amare can be integrated in as the starting PF next season.

I think Woodson got a lot of out of this team, but the Knicks just aren't constructed to win against a team like the Pacers, especially when a guy who's supposed to make 15 million to check Hibbert can't do his job. It sucks that it's the same story again, with Carmelo Anthony basically left alone and having to shoot over double-teams because nobody else shows up. The Pacers inconsistent players played better than the Knicks inconsistent players, and that's why the Knicks lost. I don't think playing Prigioni and Copeland more would have made a huge difference since the Knicks didn't have any bodies to defend West and Hibbert. Teams like this are exactly why Melo needs to play the 3, and that can't happen until STAT gets on the court or the Knicks get a stretch 4. Anyway, here's some random thoughts before I sleep...

PG - I think Prigs is a good backup, but at his age and coming from Europe, expecting him to realistically handle more than 20 minutes a night doesn't make sense. It's amazing to me how through Toney Douglas and Lin and Felton and Jason Kidd that this spot is still basically a black hole. The Knicks need to use their first round pick to fix this spot or trade for Eric Bledsoe if they can.

Felton - In fairness, he was very consistent and good throughout the playoffs but is more of a combo guard than a true 1. His ability to penetrate, run the P&R and kick out to shooters are all useful, but I think he'd be better served in JR Smith's role as somebody who can lead a second unit.

Smith is probably a lost cause. I'd still offer him the raise to 5 million over 2 years, a contract that doesn't interfere with the flexibility two years down the road. He has value, but not as the second option or even the third option.

Iman Shumpert looks like the real deal. I keep seeing stuff added to his game, like his 3 pointer and his ability to take guys off the dribble. He's going to be a stud if he learns how to finish at the rim this offseason.

Chandler was downright terrible and I'd probably listen to trade offers. I wouldn't actively look to jettison him for nothing, but I'd move him in the right deal if I could get younger/more athletic.

Most importantly, it's imperative to fix the PF situation. Melo isn't big enough to play the position and the Knicks are going to be a terrible rebounding team as long as he's there. The Knicks also need to add somebody else who is reliable offensively to the mix somehow.

smackeddog
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5/19/2013  4:16 AM
NardDogNation wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:I heard an interview on the radio today with a guy from nba tv who said that the Knicks really weren't that good and that Woodson had done an incredible job coaching up the team and managing personalities. I agree but think he will have a better, more cohesive roster next year.

I don't think the problem is that Woodson is a bad coach. That much is reflected in his success with both the Hawks and Knicks during the regular season when his predecessors failed. The problem is that he never learns from his mistakes and has the originality of a boy band. That consistency works well for turning a lottery team around but not a contender that makes their living in the playoffs, which is contingent on teams making adjustments and countering their opponents adjustments.

I think people underestimate his ability to learn from mistakes and adapt- he does end up doing what everyone calls for (even in the regular season he eventually moved Kidd and Amar'e out of the starting lineup), the problem is he's slow to do it out of loyalty. But the irony is he did actually impliment most of what this board was calling for throughout the season.

I would like to see him hire an offensive assistant this offseason though.

smackeddog
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5/19/2013  4:28 AM
The loading up with old veterans ultimately blew up in our face- by the time the playoffs came, Kurt and Sheed were literally broken, Kidd was done and Camby was nothing. We really missed Sheed and Kurt in this series. Still, to be fair those vets (apart from Camby) did play key roles in the regular season. Would we have gone on that winning streak without Kurts last stand in Utah? Would we have got off to that hot start without Sheed? Kidd was huge for big chunks of the regular season too.

For next season, hopefully Shump comes back stronger than ever before (looked great in the playoffs and showed he can raise his game when it counts), we have our draft pick (need to get lucky there). Maybe Amar'e comes back and stays healthy (ha!)- 20mins of post play off the bench would be great. Outside of that things get tough- can we keep JR (as bad as he played, we're screwed if we lose him as we have nothing to replace him with), can we keep Cope? K-Mart? Our GM has it tough this offseason.

AND PLEASE MAKE WOODY HIRE AN OFFENSIVE SPECIALIST ASSISTANT COACH!

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