JamesKPolk wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

JamesKPolk wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:
Must be hard trying to find a team willing to take a chance on a 25 year old 20-10 big man that would inevitability become a 3-time allstar; a 27 year old 20-10 big man that would inevitability become a 2-time allstar; a 27 year old that would later become a 6th man of the year candidate, and a perenially runner-up, etc.

You're right. Because that's exactly what they were when he traded them. Not selfish, one-dimensional, dumb players, but All-Stars. I forgot how great the Isiah teams were.

Take a hike, buddy. Walsh was the best thing to happen to this franchise in over a decade.

They didn't have the individual accolades yet, but had been putting up the numbers to eventually be recognized as such. Anyway you want to cut it, it doesn't change the fact that he grossly mismanaged assets and had a subpar tenure with us.

Wrong and wrong.

Good points. Loved your reasoning, btw.

MS wrote:Chandler was a bad move anyway you slice it. Can't be defended. How many centers give you the same production. Close to 15 he is a middle of the road center and should not have been an All Star this season.

Noah, Lopez, Horford were all better players in the East and Hibbert is beating him into the ground this series.

There was limited to no free agents in the market that's why walse excercised the option. But, you can't discount the fact that the Knicks were 5-3 when Walsh decided to blow things up. There was a strong chance he could have gotten something for Crawford and Zach had they continued to play well which they would have because of all the depth. He hired the wrong coach, made a terrible selection in Hill and didn't negotiate with Lee when he could have locked him in at 7-8MM a year and done the same with Nate for under 3MM. Obviously having Curry to deal with was a disaster and Dolan with isiah in his ear was an embarrassment, but Walsh gets a C for the work he did here.

I wasn't a fan of the way we acquired Chandler but who would we have signed that was as capable a player as he was? I agree with what you're saying as a whole though.

NardDogNation wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

Nalod wrote:Pacers are non starphuching and have good value. Might not ever get over the hump but things are not looking that up for us at the moment either.

They are not pretty and would not draw celebs to MSG but they have a young team.

Differnet ways for differnt markets.

Lets hope a legendary resurection and a defining moment by our Golden Mooby!

He was trying to do that here but Dolan got in the way.

I assume "starphuching" is being overly concerned with "superstar" players. With that said, Walsh was doing that. His whole plan from the time he got here was to go after Lebron, Wade, or any other big name...starphuchs but we struck out. He was also himself engaging in the Melo trades. The only thing Dolan did was force him to give up more than he wanted but Walsh still wanted the "star".

He positioned himself to sign a max FA. He did not want to send the whole team to get 1 starphuch. He was able to purge the mistake that Popcorn man did. Yes, Dolan got in the way.

But Walsh actually did gut teams to starphuch between 2008-2010. How else do you explain trading away two future all-stars in the eve of their prime (Zach Randolph, David Lee), a 6th man of the year player (Jamal Crawford) and a guy who seems capable of challenging for 6th man of the year in the near future (Nate Robinson) for just a chance to sign two stars in 2010? Walsh's time here was almost as bad as Isiah's; we just lucked into Melo wanting to become a Knick and some cap space to play with.

How else do you explain trading away valuable assets (9th pick of the 2009 draft and multiple draft picks) for a guy (Tracy McGrady) that was little more than a name at that point in his career?

Even Melo apologists have to admit that Walsh did well here since he was able to collect assets to get Melo.

NYKBocker wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

Nalod wrote:Pacers are non starphuching and have good value. Might not ever get over the hump but things are not looking that up for us at the moment either.

They are not pretty and would not draw celebs to MSG but they have a young team.

Differnet ways for differnt markets.

Lets hope a legendary resurection and a defining moment by our Golden Mooby!

He was trying to do that here but Dolan got in the way.

I assume "starphuching" is being overly concerned with "superstar" players. With that said, Walsh was doing that. His whole plan from the time he got here was to go after Lebron, Wade, or any other big name...starphuchs but we struck out. He was also himself engaging in the Melo trades. The only thing Dolan did was force him to give up more than he wanted but Walsh still wanted the "star".

He positioned himself to sign a max FA. He did not want to send the whole team to get 1 starphuch. He was able to purge the mistake that Popcorn man did. Yes, Dolan got in the way.

But Walsh actually did gut teams to starphuch between 2008-2010. How else do you explain trading away two future all-stars in the eve of their prime (Zach Randolph, David Lee), a 6th man of the year player (Jamal Crawford) and a guy who seems capable of challenging for 6th man of the year in the near future (Nate Robinson) for just a chance to sign two stars in 2010? Walsh's time here was almost as bad as Isiah's; we just lucked into Melo wanting to become a Knick and some cap space to play with.

How else do you explain trading away valuable assets (9th pick of the 2009 draft and multiple draft picks) for a guy (Tracy McGrady) that was little more than a name at that point in his career?

Even Melo apologists have to admit that Walsh did well here since he was able to collect assets to get Melo.

I'm not denying that he didn't. My problem is that he did not maximize his position and whatever few assets he was able to collect over the years, got moved in the Carmelo deal (aside from Landry Fields).

Nalod wrote:NYKMentality is back!!!!!

I guess by your arguement Walsh should be hailed as the architect of this current knick team. It was under him by which Chandler, Amare and Melo all came to be.

You lost me here.......

I have no idea who NYKMentality is but whoever he is, he ain't me. And you're arguing out of both sides of your mouth. You blamed Dolan for the Carmelo trade but are now crediting Walsh for it. You can't have it both ways. And Chandler was signed through a great deal of maneuvering by Grunwald, so I don't think Walsh deserves credit for that especially with him no longer as our Team President.

Nalod wrote:All I know is we won 23 games in Isiahs final season with a payroll that I think was 119 million. Epic.

Hindsight point by hindsight point is a brave way to critique. If you look at things at the time the decisions were made much was very reasonable. To second guess every franchise moves in hindsight is easy. If you followed teams as you follow the knicks Im sure there are 29 teams each year who can lay claim to making blunders at some point.

Welcome back.

Again, you're arguing out of both sides of your mouth. Walsh should be exonerated from any failings during his tenure here because of the poor job Isiah did but Isiah is wholly responsible for his failings despite inheriting a far worse situation from Scott Layden. IMO, all three did a poor job here in NY with Scott Layden far and away being the worst of the bunch.

And riddle me this, how can anyone assess the job someone did without looking at their body of work that has already taken place? (Hint: there is no possible way). Hindsight is ALWAYS involved in assessing how good someone is at something since time is constant and linear. This isn't to say that Walsh didn't have some solid moves. I think he did a solid job in flipping empty contracts/players for Larry Hughes, Chris Wilcox and Darko Milicic but the vast majority of his other moves left something to be desired.

NardDogNation wrote:

Nalod wrote:NYKMentality is back!!!!!

I guess by your arguement Walsh should be hailed as the architect of this current knick team. It was under him by which Chandler, Amare and Melo all came to be.

You lost me here.......

I have no idea who NYKMentality is but whoever he is, he ain't me. And you're arguing out of both sides of your mouth. You blamed Dolan for the Carmelo trade but are now crediting Walsh for it. You can't have it both ways. And Chandler was signed through a great deal of maneuvering by Grunwald, so I don't think Walsh deserves credit for that especially with him no longer as our Team President.

Nalod wrote:All I know is we won 23 games in Isiahs final season with a payroll that I think was 119 million. Epic.

Hindsight point by hindsight point is a brave way to critique. If you look at things at the time the decisions were made much was very reasonable. To second guess every franchise moves in hindsight is easy. If you followed teams as you follow the knicks Im sure there are 29 teams each year who can lay claim to making blunders at some point.

Welcome back.

Again, you're arguing out of both sides of your mouth. Walsh should be exonerated from any failings during his tenure here because of the poor job Isiah did but Isiah is wholly responsible for his failings despite inheriting a far worse situation from Scott Layden. IMO, all three did a poor job here in NY with Scott Layden far and away being the worst of the bunch.

And riddle me this, how can anyone assess the job someone did without looking at their body of work that has already taken place? (Hint: there is no possible way). Hindsight is ALWAYS involved in assessing how good someone is at something since time is constant and linear. This isn't to say that Walsh didn't have some solid moves. I think he did a solid job in flipping empty contracts/players for Larry Hughes, Chris Wilcox and Darko Milicic but the vast majority of his other moves left something to be desired.

If you think Layden was worse than Isiah than look at the wins and losses. Its all there in black and white.

NYKBocker wrote:

Nalod wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

Nalod wrote:Pacers are non starphuching and have good value. Might not ever get over the hump but things are not looking that up for us at the moment either.

They are not pretty and would not draw celebs to MSG but they have a young team.

Differnet ways for differnt markets.

Lets hope a legendary resurection and a defining moment by our Golden Mooby!

He was trying to do that here but Dolan got in the way.

I assume "starphuching" is being overly concerned with "superstar" players. With that said, Walsh was doing that. His whole plan from the time he got here was to go after Lebron, Wade, or any other big name...starphuchs but we struck out. He was also himself engaging in the Melo trades. The only thing Dolan did was force him to give up more than he wanted but Walsh still wanted the "star".

He positioned himself to sign a max FA. He did not want to send the whole team to get 1 starphuch. He was able to purge the mistake that Popcorn man did. Yes, Dolan got in the way.

But Walsh actually did gut teams to starphuch between 2008-2010. How else do you explain trading away two future all-stars in the eve of their prime (Zach Randolph, David Lee), a 6th man of the year player (Jamal Crawford) and a guy who seems capable of challenging for 6th man of the year in the near future (Nate Robinson) for just a chance to sign two stars in 2010? Walsh's time here was almost as bad as Isiah's; we just lucked into Melo wanting to become a Knick and some cap space to play with.

How else do you explain trading away valuable assets (9th pick of the 2009 draft and multiple draft picks) for a guy (Tracy McGrady) that was little more than a name at that point in his career?

Even Melo apologists have to admit that Walsh did well here since he was able to collect assets to get Melo.

I'm not denying that he didn't. My problem is that he did not maximize his position and whatever few assets he was able to collect over the years, got moved in the Carmelo deal (aside from Landry Fields).

Its pretty well known Dolan got involved in the trade.

Knicks had to move assets to clear cap off the books. Its why they got raped on some deals.

Absolutely. People forgot about Eddy already?

Layden was Dolan's patsy. I don't blame him for much.

Isiah was empowered with the full backing of Dolan to leverage the few assets we had with unheard of money.

Eddy was Noah and Aldridge.

Isiah leveraged the future for 23 wins. Unfreaking real.

Nobody said Walsh was saint, but Isiah was Rasputin!

The whole world knew Knicks wanted to clear cap and in hindsight knew Dolan is impatient. Walsh did not find many friends to pawn off his baggage.

Nalod wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

Nalod wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

Nalod wrote:Pacers are non starphuching and have good value. Might not ever get over the hump but things are not looking that up for us at the moment either.

They are not pretty and would not draw celebs to MSG but they have a young team.

Differnet ways for differnt markets.

Lets hope a legendary resurection and a defining moment by our Golden Mooby!

He was trying to do that here but Dolan got in the way.

I assume "starphuching" is being overly concerned with "superstar" players. With that said, Walsh was doing that. His whole plan from the time he got here was to go after Lebron, Wade, or any other big name...starphuchs but we struck out. He was also himself engaging in the Melo trades. The only thing Dolan did was force him to give up more than he wanted but Walsh still wanted the "star".

He positioned himself to sign a max FA. He did not want to send the whole team to get 1 starphuch. He was able to purge the mistake that Popcorn man did. Yes, Dolan got in the way.

But Walsh actually did gut teams to starphuch between 2008-2010. How else do you explain trading away two future all-stars in the eve of their prime (Zach Randolph, David Lee), a 6th man of the year player (Jamal Crawford) and a guy who seems capable of challenging for 6th man of the year in the near future (Nate Robinson) for just a chance to sign two stars in 2010? Walsh's time here was almost as bad as Isiah's; we just lucked into Melo wanting to become a Knick and some cap space to play with.

How else do you explain trading away valuable assets (9th pick of the 2009 draft and multiple draft picks) for a guy (Tracy McGrady) that was little more than a name at that point in his career?

Even Melo apologists have to admit that Walsh did well here since he was able to collect assets to get Melo.

I'm not denying that he didn't. My problem is that he did not maximize his position and whatever few assets he was able to collect over the years, got moved in the Carmelo deal (aside from Landry Fields).

Its pretty well known Dolan got involved in the trade.

Knicks had to move assets to clear cap off the books. Its why they got raped on some deals.

Absolutely. People forgot about Eddy already?

Layden was Dolan's patsy. I don't blame him for much.

Isiah was empowered with the full backing of Dolan to leverage the few assets we had with unheard of money.

Eddy was Noah and Aldridge.

Isiah leveraged the future for 23 wins. Unfreaking real.

Nobody said Walsh was saint, but Isiah was Rasputin!

The whole world knew Knicks wanted to clear cap and in hindsight knew Dolan is impatient. Walsh did not find many friends to pawn off his baggage.

Read my previous post. It addresses whatever points you're trying to make:

NardDogNation wrote:Let's review the roster Isiah inherited from Scott Layden:
Charlie Ward- out of the league in 2 seasons
Howard Eisley- out of the league in 3 seasons (played in only 64 games in that stretch)
Allan Houston-out of the league in 2 seasons (played 74 games in that stretch)
Shandon Anderson- out of the league in 3 seasons (played 194 games in that stretch)
Othella Harrington- out of the league in 4 seasons (never played more than 18mpg in that stretch)
Michael Doleac- out of the league in 5 seasons (bounced around 3 different teams during that stretch)
Clearance Weatherspoon- out of the league in 2 seasons (never played more than 16mpg and only played 92 games during that stretch)
Keith Van Horn- out of the league in 3 seasons
Frank "I was suppose to be the PG of the future" Williams- out of the league in 2 seasons (played 65 games during that stretch and never more than 12.8mpg)
Mike Sweetney- out of the league in 3 seasons, only played 3 seasons for his entire career.
...I'm not going to bother listing the other guys (aka the Bruno Sundov's of the world) because they were not even apart of the rotation. The only redeemable player on that roster was Kurt Thomas. Everyone else was useless and only stuck around as long as they did because Scott Layden extended their contracts like an idiot or traded for them after they were clearly washed up. Scott Layden is easily the worst GM of all time and is the main reason we had such a steep climb back to prominence. THAT MUCH IS IN BLACK AND WHITE.

Nalod wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Nalod wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Nalod wrote:NYKMentality is back!!!!!

I guess by your arguement Walsh should be hailed as the architect of this current knick team. It was under him by which Chandler, Amare and Melo all came to be.

You lost me here.......

I have no idea who NYKMentality is but whoever he is, he ain't me. And you're arguing out of both sides of your mouth. You blamed Dolan for the Carmelo trade but are now crediting Walsh for it. You can't have it both ways. And Chandler was signed through a great deal of maneuvering by Grunwald, so I don't think Walsh deserves credit for that especially with him no longer as our Team President.

Nalod wrote:All I know is we won 23 games in Isiahs final season with a payroll that I think was 119 million. Epic.

Hindsight point by hindsight point is a brave way to critique. If you look at things at the time the decisions were made much was very reasonable. To second guess every franchise moves in hindsight is easy. If you followed teams as you follow the knicks Im sure there are 29 teams each year who can lay claim to making blunders at some point.

Welcome back.

Again, you're arguing out of both sides of your mouth. Walsh should be exonerated from any failings during his tenure here because of the poor job Isiah did but Isiah is wholly responsible for his failings despite inheriting a far worse situation from Scott Layden. IMO, all three did a poor job here in NY with Scott Layden far and away being the worst of the bunch.

And riddle me this, how can anyone assess the job someone did without looking at their body of work that has already taken place? (Hint: there is no possible way). Hindsight is ALWAYS involved in assessing how good someone is at something since time is constant and linear. This isn't to say that Walsh didn't have some solid moves. I think he did a solid job in flipping empty contracts/players for Larry Hughes, Chris Wilcox and Darko Milicic but the vast majority of his other moves left something to be desired.

If you think Layden was worse than Isiah than look at the wins and losses. Its all there in black and white.

You're nuts. Let's review the roster Isiah inherited from Scott Layden:

Charlie Ward- out of the league in 2 seasons
Howard Eisley- out of the league in 3 seasons (played in only 64 games in that stretch)
Allan Houston-out of the league in 2 seasons (played 74 games in that stretch)
Shandon Anderson- out of the league in 3 seasons (played 194 games in that stretch)
Othella Harrington- out of the league in 4 seasons (never played more than 18mpg in that stretch)
Michael Doleac- out of the league in 5 seasons (bounced around 3 different teams during that stretch)
Clearance Weatherspoon- out of the league in 2 seasons (never played more than 16mpg and only played 92 games during that stretch)
Keith Van Horn- out of the league in 3 seasons
Frank "I was suppose to be the PG of the future" Williams- out of the league in 2 seasons (played 65 games during that stretch and never more than 12.8mpg)
Mike Sweetney- out of the league in 3 seasons, only played 3 seasons for his entire career.

...I'm not going to bother listing the other guys (aka the Bruno Sundov's of the world) because they were not even apart of the rotation. The only redeemable player on that roster was Kurt Thomas. Everyone else was useless and only stuck around as long as they did because Scott Layden extended their contracts like an idiot or traded for them after they were clearly washed up. Scott Layden is easily the worst GM of all time and is the main reason we had such a steep climb back to prominence. THAT MUCH IS IN BLACK AND WHITE.

You forgot to list the length of their contracts and we were not making "panic" moves. The layden roster sucked. the roster was the aftemath of the Dice disaster and the Ewing disaster he inherited from Grunfeld. We were tanking to rebuild. Dolan heard the boo's and went on epic panic starphuching.

That team sucked. In hindsight, there could have been another way than what Isiah did.

Isiah improved the roster but not the results.

You are a familiar poster and I'll grant you the last word. I won't get sucked in as we did a few months back.

The list of their contracts was the length of time they remained in the league. After they expired, no team really wanted them. And was "the Ewing disaster" the team that was a perennial contender and made the Finals in '99? That disaster? Every team should be so lucky to have that disaster.

The fact of the matter is the Layden inherited a damn good roster for Checketts and then botched it by trading Ewing, Camby, Sprewell and Chris Dudley; replacing them with Luc Longley, Travis Knight, Glen Rice, Keith Van Horn, Howard Eisley, Shandon Anderson and Clearance Weatherspoon while extending Charlie Ward and a soon to be gimp, Allan Houston. Can anyone even remember a draft pick that worked out for Layden? All I seem to remember is him picking Lavor Postell over Michael Redd, Frederic Weis over Ron Artest, Mike Sweetney over David West, Josh Howard and Maceji Lampe over Mo Williams. That situation was entirely Layden's doing and precipitated the decade long tailspin we went into.

playa2 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Nalod wrote:NYKMentality is back!!!!!

I guess by your arguement Walsh should be hailed as the architect of this current knick team. It was under him by which Chandler, Amare and Melo all came to be.

You lost me here.......

I have no idea who NYKMentality is but whoever he is, he ain't me. And you're arguing out of both sides of your mouth. You blamed Dolan for the Carmelo trade but are now crediting Walsh for it. You can't have it both ways. And Chandler was signed through a great deal of maneuvering by Grunwald, so I don't think Walsh deserves credit for that especially with him no longer as our Team President.

Nalod wrote:All I know is we won 23 games in Isiahs final season with a payroll that I think was 119 million. Epic.

Hindsight point by hindsight point is a brave way to critique. If you look at things at the time the decisions were made much was very reasonable. To second guess every franchise moves in hindsight is easy. If you followed teams as you follow the knicks Im sure there are 29 teams each year who can lay claim to making blunders at some point.

Welcome back.

Again, you're arguing out of both sides of your mouth. Walsh should be exonerated from any failings during his tenure here because of the poor job Isiah did but Isiah is wholly responsible for his failings despite inheriting a far worse situation from Scott Layden. IMO, all three did a poor job here in NY with Scott Layden far and away being the worst of the bunch.

Narddognation, let me introduce you to Nalod, that's Dolan spelled backwards.

He's our residential fence center poster, he wants to be right all the time so he works both sides of the fence and then he "SITS ON IT"

Nalod = Professional fence sitter

Playa, our resident conspiracy nutjob who starts at the end and works backwards. Nalod asks the grown up questions which playa don't like. Playa watches hours of conspiracy video and tries to share. Nalod is not the smart one because I engage him in discussion. The other posters are smarter than I because they ignore him.

Silverfuel wrote:Wow, just read a page of posts where NardDogNation is schooling posters. Walsh definitely hurt the Knicks. That Amare contract is going to kill the next 2 years.

Really think Walsh was the driver to bring in Amare? You really think this is a signiture Walsh move? With everything you know about Dolan, the starphuch manifest, and impatience that this is the kind of contract he would build his legacy on to return to new york and bring a championship?

Everyone entitled to his opinion.