nixluva wrote:Watching the Lakers I think it was clear that MDA was not in a strong enough position to tell Kobe to do anything. He finally got Kobe to believe in the idea of making his teammates better, which he did for a good stretch but then Kobe reverts to his usual "I can do it all by myself" and there's not much a coach can do about that. Even Phil couldn't completely control Kobe, tho some people think he's always been able to. Still Phil would have more clout than D'Antoni.

MDA is in a can't win situation in LA. He's not loved by the fans and he can't do whatever he wants when it comes to Kobe or D12. Heck when he sat Pau he got killed. He's just not in a strong enough position to do exactly what he wants to do. The pressure to win is intense. After Brown's firing no coach would be unless it was Phil. I kept thinking MDA needs to sit Kobe even it if just for a few minutes!!! But it never happened. Just so we're clear MANY coaches do this. Woody rode some of his guys into the ground. Woody is lucky that Melo didn't seriously injure himself. Thibs had Rose playing too long. It's not just an MDA thing. Coaches are under pressure to win and that leads to playing guys too much. The only time you see them not do it is after they've won and they have the clout to do things differently.

Nalod wrote:Hindsight internet introspective rocket science second guess righteousness erect morality stance is so brave.

Kobe has a major hard-on to prove his legacy. Jordan never got hurt, why would kobe? Kobe was going to put that team on its back and get it in the playoffs. Shit happens.

CrushAlot wrote:

Nalod wrote:Hindsight internet introspective rocket science second guess righteousness erect morality stance is so brave.

Kobe has a major hard-on to prove his legacy. Jordan never got hurt, why would kobe? Kobe was going to put that team on its back and get it in the playoffs. Shit happens.

If you stayed up to watch the game you would be wondering about Kobe not coming out. The first time he went down he didn't get up for several minutes and finally got up to a chant of mvp. The second time he got up he didn't put any weight on his foot and limped for several minutes after. One of the announcers didn't think Kobe would be able to shoot his free throws. Watching the game it is hard not to second guess his being in after the first two injuries that initially appeared to at least be ending his night.

as a redskin fan this is something that is quite similar to shanahan/rg3. rg3 was clearly hurt and neither the player nor the coach did the right thing. this situation looked and feels the same. players dont want to come out, its gotta be up to the coach to do it, even if it might mean the end of a chance to move on in the playoffs/make the playoffs.

dantoni doesnt seem to have enough (swag/pull/credit) to do that.

nixluva wrote:Watching the Lakers I think it was clear that MDA was not in a strong enough position to tell Kobe to do anything. He finally got Kobe to believe in the idea of making his teammates better, which he did for a good stretch but then Kobe reverts to his usual "I can do it all by myself" and there's not much a coach can do about that. Even Phil couldn't completely control Kobe, tho some people think he's always been able to. Still Phil would have more clout than D'Antoni.

MDA is in a can't win situation in LA. He's not loved by the fans and he can't do whatever he wants when it comes to Kobe or D12. Heck when he sat Pau he got killed. He's just not in a strong enough position to do exactly what he wants to do. The pressure to win is intense. After Brown's firing no coach would be unless it was Phil. I kept thinking MDA needs to sit Kobe even it if just for a few minutes!!! But it never happened. Just so we're clear MANY coaches do this. Woody rode some of his guys into the ground. Woody is lucky that Melo didn't seriously injure himself. Thibs had Rose playing too long. It's not just an MDA thing. Coaches are under pressure to win and that leads to playing guys too much. The only time you see them not do it is after they've won and they have the clout to do things differently.

Actually Thibs didn't really run Rose into the ground, he literally had no backup guy to Rose.... as they had many players injured his MVP yr then the next season Rose averaged 35.3min/gm that's not high for star players you know this right? Matter of fact it was the lowest of his career and Rose has never played 38min/gm in a season for his career.

Another sorry attempt by you, now that you have no leg to stand on as the most stubborn D'Antoni supporter, he playing a large role in ending Kobe's season and possibly his career.

Phil/Doc/Pop/Spo/Karl you know the ELITE coaches rest and/or sit their players when they sense too much is going on physically with their guys. Yes Thibs left Rose in too long during 1 playoff game, but Rose's injury has more to do with they way he plays the game, than Thibs over working him.

3G4G wrote:

IronWillGiroud wrote:no coach can 'run you into the ground' if you do not allow this, we are not talking about a rookie that is hungry for all the time he can get but an nba legend with more clout than most coaches in the league,

Phil sat Kobe's arse and I can pull up articles if you want to show you, coaches can sit players no matter how good they are. Heck Pop rest his players as does Doc Rivers all the time. Yes coaches can run players into the ground that's why there's such a thing called managing players in particular their minutes. This is pure unadulterated reckless coaching by D'Antoni. I watched the game. Kobe had 2 near fatal physical spills prior to ripping his achilles to a torn cloth. But coach pulled the bridle even harder and kept rapidly smacking the back hind leg until the horse's tender hoof tore completely off.

alright man i said "fair, fair" to gustavbahler,

great points though i see what you're saying

3G4G wrote:

nixluva wrote:Watching the Lakers I think it was clear that MDA was not in a strong enough position to tell Kobe to do anything. He finally got Kobe to believe in the idea of making his teammates better, which he did for a good stretch but then Kobe reverts to his usual "I can do it all by myself" and there's not much a coach can do about that. Even Phil couldn't completely control Kobe, tho some people think he's always been able to. Still Phil would have more clout than D'Antoni.

MDA is in a can't win situation in LA. He's not loved by the fans and he can't do whatever he wants when it comes to Kobe or D12. Heck when he sat Pau he got killed. He's just not in a strong enough position to do exactly what he wants to do. The pressure to win is intense. After Brown's firing no coach would be unless it was Phil. I kept thinking MDA needs to sit Kobe even it if just for a few minutes!!! But it never happened. Just so we're clear MANY coaches do this. Woody rode some of his guys into the ground. Woody is lucky that Melo didn't seriously injure himself. Thibs had Rose playing too long. It's not just an MDA thing. Coaches are under pressure to win and that leads to playing guys too much. The only time you see them not do it is after they've won and they have the clout to do things differently.

Actually Thibs didn't really run Rose into the ground, he literally had no backup guy to Rose.... as they had many players injured his MVP yr then the next season Rose averaged 35.3min/gm that's not high for star players you know this right? Matter of fact it was the lowest of his career and Rose has never played 38min/gm in a season for his career.

Another sorry attempt by you, now that you have no leg to stand on as the most stubborn D'Antoni supporter, he playing a large role in ending Kobe's season and possibly his career.

Phil/Doc/Pop/Spo/Karl you know the ELITE coaches rest and/or sit their players when they sense too much is going on physically with their guys. Yes Thibs left Rose in too long during 1 playoff game, but Rose's injury has more to do with they way he plays the game, than Thibs over working him.

You think it's only about wear and tear over a long period of time. Sometimes its in a single game too. Thibs did in fact play Rose too long in that game. The game was basically over. Bulls up 12 with less than 2 mins to play!!! As you say DRose plays hard and so when you can take him out of any game that is basically over you should do it. It's just a dumb thing to have your single star in there when you don't have to. Teams sometimes get dirty when they're losing and that's another reason you want to pull your star. So it's not just about how many minutes you play a guy.

I'm not excusing MDA as much as saying he's in a weak position in LA. Not only can't he win against D12 or Kobe, but the pressure to make the playoffs is unreal. He has indeed made the mistake of playing guys to long as have other coaches. The problem is that only a few coaches have the LUXURY of resting players or in the Lakers case the clout to pull a guy that doesn't want to come out and is the franchise. Kobe wanted to stay in and was effective even after the 1st couple of times he went down with some knee issues. He was making a hard drive when he tore his Achilles. Its easy to say now that he should've come out, but he had just hit 2 big 3's and the game wasn't secure. It's a mistake a LOT of coaches would make. As I said Woody has had his troubles deciding when to pull guys like when Melo wanted out or overusing Kidd etc. This isn't about my "bias" towards MDA and I laid out why it's a bigger issue than one coach.

nixluva wrote:

3G4G wrote:

nixluva wrote:Watching the Lakers I think it was clear that MDA was not in a strong enough position to tell Kobe to do anything. He finally got Kobe to believe in the idea of making his teammates better, which he did for a good stretch but then Kobe reverts to his usual "I can do it all by myself" and there's not much a coach can do about that. Even Phil couldn't completely control Kobe, tho some people think he's always been able to. Still Phil would have more clout than D'Antoni.

MDA is in a can't win situation in LA. He's not loved by the fans and he can't do whatever he wants when it comes to Kobe or D12. Heck when he sat Pau he got killed. He's just not in a strong enough position to do exactly what he wants to do. The pressure to win is intense. After Brown's firing no coach would be unless it was Phil. I kept thinking MDA needs to sit Kobe even it if just for a few minutes!!! But it never happened. Just so we're clear MANY coaches do this. Woody rode some of his guys into the ground. Woody is lucky that Melo didn't seriously injure himself. Thibs had Rose playing too long. It's not just an MDA thing. Coaches are under pressure to win and that leads to playing guys too much. The only time you see them not do it is after they've won and they have the clout to do things differently.

Actually Thibs didn't really run Rose into the ground, he literally had no backup guy to Rose.... as they had many players injured his MVP yr then the next season Rose averaged 35.3min/gm that's not high for star players you know this right? Matter of fact it was the lowest of his career and Rose has never played 38min/gm in a season for his career.

Another sorry attempt by you, now that you have no leg to stand on as the most stubborn D'Antoni supporter, he playing a large role in ending Kobe's season and possibly his career.

Phil/Doc/Pop/Spo/Karl you know the ELITE coaches rest and/or sit their players when they sense too much is going on physically with their guys. Yes Thibs left Rose in too long during 1 playoff game, but Rose's injury has more to do with they way he plays the game, than Thibs over working him.

I'm not excusing MDA as much as saying he's in a weak position in LA. Not only can't he win against D12 or Kobe, but the pressure to make the playoffs is unreal. He has indeed made the mistake of playing guys to long as have other coaches. The problem is that only a few coaches have the LUXURY of resting players or in the Lakers case the clout to pull a guy that doesn't want to come out and is the franchise. Kobe wanted to stay in and was effective even after the 1st couple of times he went down with some knee issues. He was making a hard drive when he tore his Achilles. Its easy to say now that he should've come out, but he had just hit 2 big 3's and the game wasn't secure. It's a mistake a LOT of coaches would make. As I said Woody has had his troubles deciding when to pull guys like when Melo wanted out or overusing Kidd etc. This isn't about my "bias" towards MDA and I laid out why it's a bigger issue than one coach.

He pursued and accepted the job (knowing the situation and all that comes with it) at guaranteed yrs and millions of dollars, therefore you should be the last person trying to apologize for his situation, not in case he has you on his payroll. If D'Antoni is as good as any other coach and his yrs in Phx are pure gold then yes he has the clout based on track record to tell Kobe I have to sit you 5min. You just train wrecked right before our eyes 2 times and walked away from it. I want to see you continue walking, have a seat next to me... homie.

Naahhhh this was a discussion in NBA circles prior to him tearing up his ankle. Of course you may have been immersed in your D'Antoni catalogs making you oblivious to the water cooler talk but when he played 48 min against Portland on Wednesday even Magic/Simmons/Jalen made this topic front and center, then on TNT they took it even a step further and made it worldwide....2 days later D'Antoni with sugar babies loaded up in his ears ignores the warnings and BOOM goes Kobe.

Nix you got anything else?

nykshaknbake wrote:Talk is cheap. They weren't going to undermine his authority right in the begininng of the season. What did you expect them to say? You think its impossible he doesn't return? How many times have we heard that the team stands behind their coach and then they get canned? Is it ever the case that a team hires a coach and after a few weeks tells the press he's on the chopping block?

3G4G wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:I can understand why MDA did it. This Lakers gig is really his last chance to prove he can coach at a professional level. Kobe is their best player. If the Lakers don't make the playoffs and he gets fired he's finished. If KObe is willing why not roll the dice? If he doesn't, the Lakers don't make the playoffs and he likely gets fired. If he does and this happened he's in the same amount of danger of getting fired anyway. It's a risk free move from his perspective.

Lakers already said he's coming back next yr, this was with them out of the playoff picture early in the season. Kuptchak said it would be up to the players to figure out how to get it done as they have the talent to be better. Not saying I agree with MK, but providing you with an understanding D'AnToni wasn't in any real danger coaching wise with the organization. He had some rope just based on the player injury factor alone and coming into a difficult situation....

But to take a page out of Isiah Thomas' Book.....

YOU CAN TAKE THAT'S WHY HE GETS PAID THE BIG BUCKS TO THE BANK!!!!!!

Really they don't have to say anything to that end but ask yourself why would an organization speak on it's players with onus and not the coach? I'll tell you why.....

IMO it was "expensive talk"..... not cheap talk.... as they fired a coach who probably shouldn't have been with money still left on a deal...paid an over the hill point guard $30mil while giving up picks in the process during the summer, traded for a DBag who isn't a Max Player with a bad back who they said is their future, and then hired a replacement coach at premium dollars. The talk was what it was, an organization trying to justify the decisions they made, well I hope they fill very much justified now.

Ask yourself what organization fires 2 established coaches in 1 yr? I don't think we've even accomplished such a feat.

3G4G wrote:

nixluva wrote:

3G4G wrote:

nixluva wrote:Watching the Lakers I think it was clear that MDA was not in a strong enough position to tell Kobe to do anything. He finally got Kobe to believe in the idea of making his teammates better, which he did for a good stretch but then Kobe reverts to his usual "I can do it all by myself" and there's not much a coach can do about that. Even Phil couldn't completely control Kobe, tho some people think he's always been able to. Still Phil would have more clout than D'Antoni.

MDA is in a can't win situation in LA. He's not loved by the fans and he can't do whatever he wants when it comes to Kobe or D12. Heck when he sat Pau he got killed. He's just not in a strong enough position to do exactly what he wants to do. The pressure to win is intense. After Brown's firing no coach would be unless it was Phil. I kept thinking MDA needs to sit Kobe even it if just for a few minutes!!! But it never happened. Just so we're clear MANY coaches do this. Woody rode some of his guys into the ground. Woody is lucky that Melo didn't seriously injure himself. Thibs had Rose playing too long. It's not just an MDA thing. Coaches are under pressure to win and that leads to playing guys too much. The only time you see them not do it is after they've won and they have the clout to do things differently.

Actually Thibs didn't really run Rose into the ground, he literally had no backup guy to Rose.... as they had many players injured his MVP yr then the next season Rose averaged 35.3min/gm that's not high for star players you know this right? Matter of fact it was the lowest of his career and Rose has never played 38min/gm in a season for his career.

Another sorry attempt by you, now that you have no leg to stand on as the most stubborn D'Antoni supporter, he playing a large role in ending Kobe's season and possibly his career.

Phil/Doc/Pop/Spo/Karl you know the ELITE coaches rest and/or sit their players when they sense too much is going on physically with their guys. Yes Thibs left Rose in too long during 1 playoff game, but Rose's injury has more to do with they way he plays the game, than Thibs over working him.

I'm not excusing MDA as much as saying he's in a weak position in LA. Not only can't he win against D12 or Kobe, but the pressure to make the playoffs is unreal. He has indeed made the mistake of playing guys to long as have other coaches. The problem is that only a few coaches have the LUXURY of resting players or in the Lakers case the clout to pull a guy that doesn't want to come out and is the franchise. Kobe wanted to stay in and was effective even after the 1st couple of times he went down with some knee issues. He was making a hard drive when he tore his Achilles. Its easy to say now that he should've come out, but he had just hit 2 big 3's and the game wasn't secure. It's a mistake a LOT of coaches would make. As I said Woody has had his troubles deciding when to pull guys like when Melo wanted out or overusing Kidd etc. This isn't about my "bias" towards MDA and I laid out why it's a bigger issue than one coach.

He pursued and accepted the job (knowing the situation and all that comes with it) at guaranteed yrs and millions of dollars, therefore you should be the last person trying to apologize for his situation, not in case he has you on his payroll. If D'Antoni is as good as any other coach and his yrs in Phx are pure gold then yes he has the clout based on track record to tell Kobe I have to sit you 5min. You just train wrecked right before our eyes 2 times and walked away from it. I want to see you continue walking, have a seat next to me... homie.

Naahhhh this was a discussion in NBA circles prior to him tearing up his ankles. Of course you may have be immersed in your D'Antoni catalogs making you oblivious to the water cooler talk but when he played 48 min against Portland on Wednesday even Magic/Simmons/Jalen made this topic front and center, then on TNT they took it even a step further and made it worldwide....2 days later D'Antoni with sugar babies loaded up in his ears ignores the warnings and BOOM goes Kobe.

Nix you got anything else?

You need to learn how to read!!! No one is saying MDA has no blame. Simply that it's not as easy a call as you're making it out to be. Except for a few coaches you can name it's hard to find a coach that hasn't pushed the envelope or a player that went out there knowing he wasn't really in condition to play. What if Jordan had collapsed on the court in that game he played with serious Stomach flu symptoms? Since he made it thru the game even tho totally exhausted, no one gets to criticize Phil for that, but it could EASILY have happened. I too thought he should've rested Kobe, but I understand the pressures that made him let Kobe keep playing. It's not as simple as you're trying to make it seem. Someone mentioned RG3 and that was a worse case since he actually HAD AN INJURED KNEE with a brace on it! It's just another example of the mentality of players and coaches in Pro Sports.

3G4G wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:Talk is cheap. They weren't going to undermine his authority right in the begininng of the season. What did you expect them to say? You think its impossible he doesn't return? How many times have we heard that the team stands behind their coach and then they get canned? Is it ever the case that a team hires a coach and after a few weeks tells the press he's on the chopping block?

3G4G wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:I can understand why MDA did it. This Lakers gig is really his last chance to prove he can coach at a professional level. Kobe is their best player. If the Lakers don't make the playoffs and he gets fired he's finished. If KObe is willing why not roll the dice? If he doesn't, the Lakers don't make the playoffs and he likely gets fired. If he does and this happened he's in the same amount of danger of getting fired anyway. It's a risk free move from his perspective.

Lakers already said he's coming back next yr, this was with them out of the playoff picture early in the season. Kuptchak said it would be up to the players to figure out how to get it done as they have the talent to be better. Not saying I agree with MK, but providing you with an understanding D'AnToni wasn't in any real danger coaching wise with the organization. He had some rope just based on the player injury factor alone and coming into a difficult situation....

But to take a page out of Isiah Thomas' Book.....

YOU CAN TAKE THAT'S WHY HE GETS PAID THE BIG BUCKS TO THE BANK!!!!!!

Really they don't have to say anything to that end but ask yourself why would an organization speak on it's players with onus and not the coach? I'll tell you why.....

IMO it was "expensive talk"..... not cheap talk.... as they fired a coach who probably shouldn't have been with money still left on a deal...paid an over the hill point guard $30mil while giving up picks in the process during the summer, traded for a DBag who isn't a Max Player with a bad back who they said is their future, and then hired a replacement coach at premium dollars. The talk was what it was, an organization trying to justify the decisions they made, well I hope they fill very much justified now.

Ask yourself what organization fires 2 established coaches in 1 yr? I don't think we've even accomplished such a feat.