dk7th wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

tkf wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

tkf wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

dk7th wrote:if anyone claims it was a mistake to acquire stoudemire as a free agent requiring only cash, then how can acquiring carmelo anthony-- through a team-gutting trade AND paying max money-- not simply compound the problem, making it impossible for the knicks to truly contend? tkf is right: you have two players with the exact same flaws and who occupy the same space on the floor. they are redundant and the team continues to have a hard time gelling.

the team before february 2011 was not broke so why try to fix it?

knicks lack youth, have injuries, and therefore lack depth. are these dudes going to have anything but fumes to run on come playoff time?

Um...how about that STAT was damaged goods and we maxed him out when no one else was willing to? The problem we have with the team right now is Kidd. He's simpky not playing the way he was at the start of the year. STAT and Melo are inferior defenders but to me they seem to be playing just fine together this year.

kidd is not the problem..we should not have played him that many minutes. Kidd is soon to be 40 years old.. what are we expecting from him? the guy defends bigger players most of the time. he has to do most of the thinking for those knuckleheads on the floor when he is out there.. this is not a young jason kidd anymore.. the guy is gassed.. and that is understandable..

I'm not bagging on Kidd and it isn't his fault that he's came back down to earth. However, him not playing the way he did earlier has resulted in the product we're watching today. 100% understandable....Pablo needs more run.

THIS product we see now was inevitable... kidd, sheed, and other performances just slowed the train down.. masked the problem a bit.... it was always there.. never went away.. we just could not expect kidd to play that way for an extended period of time.. what he gave the knicks probably helped save this team from being further down the standings at this point... we should be grateful.. and playing pablo more doesn't solve the problem...

Nah, it was Amare being injured last season and the end of the season before that. Last season Amare was a shell of himself since he was injured pretty much all year. When you can't perform above a mediocre level because of injury, how are you going to develop chemistry.

nah what you're saying is just a dodge. it's not the injuries it's the lack of passing skills and the redundant comfort zones. those two obviously struggle to mesh. get a great pick and roll player out there and stat will flourish while melo will sulk because he will be forced into a spot-up shooting role. he like to dribble too much. get a felton type in there and stat will be marginalized or not be as effective. melo will get to go one-on-one in a jack-it-up atmosphere lacking a decent point guard.

Yet Melo assist Amar'e more than anyone else but that goes against what you are saying so we will overlook it and dismiss it. Deal.

yellowboy90 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

DurzoBlint wrote:

tkf wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

tkf wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

dk7th wrote:if anyone claims it was a mistake to acquire stoudemire as a free agent requiring only cash, then how can acquiring carmelo anthony-- through a team-gutting trade AND paying max money-- not simply compound the problem, making it impossible for the knicks to truly contend? tkf is right: you have two players with the exact same flaws and who occupy the same space on the floor. they are redundant and the team continues to have a hard time gelling.

the team before february 2011 was not broke so why try to fix it?

knicks lack youth, have injuries, and therefore lack depth. are these dudes going to have anything but fumes to run on come playoff time?

Um...how about that STAT was damaged goods and we maxed him out when no one else was willing to? The problem we have with the team right now is Kidd. He's simpky not playing the way he was at the start of the year. STAT and Melo are inferior defenders but to me they seem to be playing just fine together this year.

kidd is not the problem..we should not have played him that many minutes. Kidd is soon to be 40 years old.. what are we expecting from him? the guy defends bigger players most of the time. he has to do most of the thinking for those knuckleheads on the floor when he is out there.. this is not a young jason kidd anymore.. the guy is gassed.. and that is understandable..

I'm not bagging on Kidd and it isn't his fault that he's came back down to earth. However, him not playing the way he did earlier has resulted in the product we're watching today. 100% understandable....Pablo needs more run.

THIS product we see now was inevitable... kidd, sheed, and other performances just slowed the train down.. masked the problem a bit.... it was always there.. never went away.. we just could not expect kidd to play that way for an extended period of time.. what he gave the knicks probably helped save this team from being further down the standings at this point... we should be grateful.. and playing pablo more doesn't solve the problem...

Nah, it was Amare being injured last season and the end of the season before that. Last season Amare was a shell of himself since he was injured pretty much all year. When you can't perform above a mediocre level because of injury, how are you going to develop chemistry.

nah what you're saying is just a dodge. it's not the injuries it's the lack of passing skills and the redundant comfort zones. those two obviously struggle to mesh. get a great pick and roll player out there and stat will flourish while melo will sulk because he will be forced into a spot-up shooting role. he like to dribble too much. get a felton type in there and stat will be marginalized or not be as effective. melo will get to go one-on-one in a jack-it-up atmosphere lacking a decent point guard.

Yet Melo assist Amar'e more than anyone else but that goes against what you are saying so we will overlook it and dismiss it. Deal.

what does that even mean? "melo assists amare more than anyone else." the guy has a 34.3 usage rate and dishes out 2.7 assists game. do you realize how poor that is? and the knicks are like 29th in assists.

they don't play a two-man game together. at all. the few assists we have seen from melo to amare have been around the basket where stoudemire cuts from the weak side should the defense converge on melo at the basket. two-man game = pick and roll game. you never see that from them. ever.

your post is truly misleading.

dk7th wrote:

Nalod wrote:Problem is not with AMare and Melo. I mean what is he real problem? Its more Amare and where he gets the ball, and so the problem is attracting the weak side defender from Tyson. Amare not a good passer so he gets hammered. He is drawing fouls nice though.

Tyson has no offense outside of 3 feet from the rim.

The true problem is Tyson and Amare co-existing.

then i guess we should not have acquired chandler-- that is what you are implying. and by the way, who would you have preferred we had gotten for the billups money?

We should not have amnestied billups.

dk7th wrote:

Nalod wrote:Problem is not with AMare and Melo. I mean what is he real problem? Its more Amare and where he gets the ball, and so the problem is attracting the weak side defender from Tyson. Amare not a good passer so he gets hammered. He is drawing fouls nice though.

Tyson has no offense outside of 3 feet from the rim.

The true problem is Tyson and Amare co-existing.

then i guess we should not have acquired chandler-- that is what you are implying. and by the way, who would you have preferred we had gotten for the billups money?

I prefer to draw my own conclusions but if you must, I will address your question and say some form of player that was Mozgov in his skill set. Im not saying we don't trade him or if he stayed we'd have developed him but the dude had a 15 foot jumper and was active. This man of mystery is like byron Mullin or like the Gasol brothers. They don't all have to be white either. Im thinking vintage Amare with Rony and Mozgov. They got out of the way and their man followed him.

I thought Tyson was coming into the season with some improved offense. Dude is a hell of a player and on paper its all nice. We need his defensive presence as well.

Its not perfect either way.

SlimChin wrote:

3G4G wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

tkf wrote:

SlimChin wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:If those 2 guys can't play together because defenses can pack the paint and close out on the 3's quicker then why did Walsh & Dolan go after a SF/PF when he had a PF in Amare. Or were they expecting Amare to play Center for the rest of his career? Which the Knicks said they did not want and was the reason why they were developing Mozgov.

You think there is actually validity to this or is it a myth created by the talking heads in the media to bring the team down, sell papers and ratings?

Personally I don't think the 3 of them ever saw adaquate time together. Amare was a shell of his former self last year with the back injury. Clearly his knees are ok for now if they keep his minutes under 30.

Knicks are not beating the Heat with one guy shooting over 45% in the starting lineup. We will be down 20 before Before JR and Amare step on the court and the series will end in 4-5 games again. Same with the Bulls and Pacers. They will collapse on Melo while Kidd and co brick open shots. On the other end they will overpower Melo with their size and physical play leading to Melo either not defending or picking up fouls. Not good

Start building chemistry now before its too late. Start:
Tyson
Amare(under 30mins)
Melo
Shumpert
Felton

Dolan wanted Melo and they cleared the cupboards to get him so D'Antoni and Woodson had to shoehorn them both in the lineup. you can't justify having a 60 million dollar player come off the bench so it was kind of "convenient" that STAT got injured. whether or not they can play together, STAT's defense is always going to be a liability—which is going to hurt the knicks in the playoffs.

i KNOW people really want them to work, but sometimes things just don't mix... amare and carmelo are both poor defenders and passers... can't have two guys who touch the ball that much, who play that many minutes be that poor in both areas.... plain and simple...

That's why you need a very good PG that can create and distribute. Without that piece then this duo can't work. Just too many warts.

Except one player doesn't particularly care for a high quality point guard governing his touches

very true. it's definitely an indication that melo has some maturing to do. what's it going to take a high caliber PG like a CP3? then the knicks are contenders?

Yeah Melo wants that player to be in "THE NBA CIRCLE" or be "ELITE" you know "EARN STRIPES".... it's like you got some nerve how about you get more "STRIPES a.k.a BADGES" on your uniform

fishmike wrote:I seem to remember Amare and Melo playing pretty good last year with Lin running the ship.

But we couldnt resign him because of money.

BUT we could pay (in 2013-2014)
Kidd $3.1mm (41 y/0)
Camby $4.2mm (40 y/o)
Novak $3.4mm
Felton $4.3mm

So... we couldnt envision a way to sign a player who galvanized this franchise and proved he could play with our stars, BUT we could spend that same money on two ancient relics who cant play now (much less in 2 years) and two clearly inferior players in Felton and Novak.

I love Felton but he's not at a discount. He's exactly at market value, which is middle of the road NBA point guard.

Knicks are out of tricks. They are out of guys who can be asked to step up. What you see is what you get. This team has tuned out Woodson. He yells to defend, Knicks get to it when they get to it (wait, I thought our poor defense was MDAs fault). Who on this team is going to step it up? Amare cant get more minutes and dude's shooting over 55%. Melo's idea for stepping it up is shooting more. Ug. Chandler needs others to get more involved. Kidd and JR havent hit a 3 since Santa came to town and Novak wont even shoot it if he doesnt have the needed space. Where is the help coming from?

This. Wat he said.
AND the fact that we missed the golden opportunity to amnesty Amare when it was handed to us on a silver platter.
Decisions have consequences, bad decisions usually have bad consequences.

knickscity wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

fishmike wrote:I seem to remember Amare and Melo playing pretty good last year with Lin running the ship.

But we couldnt resign him because of money.

BUT we could pay (in 2013-2014)
Kidd $3.1mm (41 y/0)
Camby $4.2mm (40 y/o)
Novak $3.4mm
Felton $4.3mm

So... we couldnt envision a way to sign a player who galvanized this franchise and proved he could play with our stars, BUT we could spend that same money on two ancient relics who cant play now (much less in 2 years) and two clearly inferior players in Felton and Novak.

I love Felton but he's not at a discount. He's exactly at market value, which is middle of the road NBA point guard.

Knicks are out of tricks. They are out of guys who can be asked to step up. What you see is what you get. This team has tuned out Woodson. He yells to defend, Knicks get to it when they get to it (wait, I thought our poor defense was MDAs fault). Who on this team is going to step it up? Amare cant get more minutes and dude's shooting over 55%. Melo's idea for stepping it up is shooting more. Ug. Chandler needs others to get more involved. Kidd and JR havent hit a 3 since Santa came to town and Novak wont even shoot it if he doesnt have the needed space. Where is the help coming from?

This. Wat he said.
AND the fact that we missed the golden opportunity to amnesty Amare when it was handed to us on a silver platter.
Decisions have consequences, bad decisions usually have bad consequences.

They weren't amnestying 80 million dollars....i dont even know why this convo continues to come up.

it would have been 60. And, it comes up because it is perfectly valid.

earthmansurfer wrote:I just saw Kerr on ESPN talking about this. He said Amare is playing great, very efficient, but the spacing we had earlier in the season with our 3pt shooters is gone. He has a good point, nothing shocking there. It really just seems like we need to get rid of Amare, which I actually think we can do if he keeps playing like this. We might be able to get back a few decent players, or a very good player with a longer contract from a team wanting a draw and perhaps to shed long term salary. So, next year, count on a different argument. "We just need time for (new players) to gel with Melo and have a camp togther." eheheh, kidding. I look forward to a team that is more cohesive in how they can play.

I like Stat, but don't think him and Melo can be on the same team, not the way we play with spacing and 3pt shooting. Not to mention just terrible defense. TKF - I think Melo can actually play good+ defense - I've seen him do it. But, he just doesn't have that will. And with the way the team is right now, he is expending too much energy on offense. Not making excuses for him, but it must be a bit demoralizing.

Still have hope once the old guys return but I am also looking forward to having a partially rebuilt team next year also.

edit - I should add, I would like to see what Amare can do in the starting lineup. Might as well see...

Knicks are just missing wide open shots. Kidd, Felton, Melo and Shumpert. Has nothing to do with spacing imo