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tkf
Posts: 36487
Alba Posts: 6
Joined: 8/13/2001
Member: #87
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vdfebduderocks wrote:tkf wrote:vdfebduderocks wrote:tkf wrote:knickscity wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:mrKnickShot wrote:tkf wrote:fishmike wrote:tfk... trading Melo for Rondo now is nuts. Knicks are second place and seem to matchup well against the Heat. You have to ride this and see if you can get hot in the post season.Also Knicks are getting guys back and hitting the soft spot on the schedule. Very possible if not likely they win the next 5 and then some (havent checked past next five). Hopefully Woody starts to rest Melo, gets other guys sharing the ball again and we start to defend.
WELL fish, I am just at a different point with this team..I can't hope on this team getting hot and beating the heat, what if the heat get hot? they are still better... I just don't have the faith in this old team with carmelo trying to lead this group.... I would feel just as good going without him knowing I have the potential of having one of the best PG's in the league going into his prime.... a guy who impacts the game on both sides of the ball consistently on a high level.... but that is just me... I have absolutely no faith in carmelo.. NONE.... with him leading this team, I feel an early exit is guaranteed... I have always felt that way...
Who is this PG that you speak so glowingly of? Oh ... Rondo. Never mind. I love Rondo but I would not take him injured. If he was healthy, I would consider it.
I seriously doubt Rondo could do what he did for Boston on any other team, and with his injury no telling what he will be when he gets back. sure he can.. and why not? plenty of players have survived ACL injuries, and a most do recover... again, let me ask, do you think shumpert will never get back to where he was before, or even close? Anyway, it doesn't matter, will never happen, I just threw it out to Anibus, some guys can answer without all the emotion , some guys can't handle it lol.... so lets just drop it.. TKF, just because Rondo is one of the best PGs in the game doesn't mean he can actually lead his team to a championship. Think about it, besides Billups, no team with a ball-dominant PG has sniffed a championship ring recently. Magic and Isiah were the exceptions to this only because Magic was a godly as a basketball talent and, from isiah's perspective, also that Jordan wasn't at the point of flat out domination yet. Yeah Rondo affects the game on both ends, but he often takes way too many gambles on both ends and is often bailed out by his VETERAN teammates. He won't get that luxury here. Also, he's a turnover machine waiting to explode come playoff time. We're blessed with a team that does NOT turn the ball over that much. Look at all the championship teams, you'll see they all take care of the ball a lot. Rondo turns the ball over. Also, all that great ball distribution and stuff usually goes away in the playoffs when the best of the best defenses play lock down D and it comes down to ISO ball. You want Rondo taking that last shot? You want Rondo on the foul line? You want Amare taking that shot? Ask this board and I bet they'll say no. Rondo will win you 60 games during the regular season... he won't help us in the post season. rondo, billups, lebron all have proven they can lead championship worthy players to championships.... that is what I am looking for.. we know it takes a team to win, but who leads that team is just as important.. I don't think we have that.. Also, all that great ball distribution and stuff usually goes away in the playoffs when the best of the best defenses play lock down D and it comes down to ISO ball. You want Rondo taking that last shot? You want Rondo on the foul line? You want Amare taking that shot? Ask this board and I bet they'll say no. that is not true.. you beat good defenses with good ball movement, not constant iso..... and again, we keep talking about coming down to last shots.. I don't want it coming down to last shots.. how many finals have come down to last shots? and oh guess what.. do you want paxon, kerr or Jordan taking the last shot? the answer is jordan but guess what, paxon and kerr both hit series winning shots.. i want a team with multiple guys capable of hitting last minute shots and most of all a player, a leader capable of not only understanding that concept but willing under any circumstance to execute that concept! the spurs have 4 guys on that team I would not mind taking a game winning shot!! FOH with "Rondo" leading championship worthy players to championships. If I remember correctly, a healthy Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, and Kevin Garnett led that team to a championship, not Rondo. Billups did, but he's also the exception because that team was flat out stacked defensively (big credit to Rasheed and Ben Wallace). Also, I don't lump Billups with the ball-dominant PGs I'm talking about. Jason Kidd circa Dallas was a ball-dominant PG. There's also a reason his team couldn't beat the Lakers & Spurs and you know that too. LeBron's on another level in the NBA and it's a disgrace to lump him as a PG. Let's take him off that list. Sometimes the leader of the team doesn't have to be a PG or yet doesn't have to be a ball-dominant PG. Now if you don't think we have that leadership, that's debatable. I think this team has veteran leadership from the bench to the starting lineup. The leader doesn't necessarily need to be the best player on the team, though it certainly helps. To your second point, I'll agree with that you beat teams with good ball movement. But how will Rondo provide that? As you're saying, good ball movement involves all 5 guys on the floor. Rondo needs the ball more and more and more. Yeah he averages 11 assists a game, but what good is that if you hold the ball all the time? Teams know that during the playoffs. He can't ball like that against the Heat or Bulls because they'll all stop him from passing the ball. Now you say you don't want the game to come down to last shots... it's not about late shots necessarily, it's about clutch shots. That can be anytime during the game. Clutch shots occur all the time. It's not like the regular season where you can just blow out teams. Many Finals or playoff series have come down to last shots. Damn, the 99 playoffs, we had Allan Houston and the 4 point play. Now yes, Paxson and Kerr hit those game-winning shots, but you do realize that the only reason they get those shots is not because of ball movement, but due to common sense AND the fact that the defense is basically paying attention to Michael Jordan because he is a THREAT to score. If Jordan was Gallo-lite or, better yet, if there were two Scottie Pippens on the team, Kerr & Paxson may not have even gotten the opportunity to score. Now obviously we need multiple guys who can hit shots. That's who we call stars. Shaq & Kobe, Shaq & Wade, Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Boston's Big 3, Kobe & Pau, Dirk and Co., and the Miami Big 3 are all STARS. The Denver Nuggets do not have STARS yet. The Houston Rockets have James Harden, who basically got shook in last year's finals. Put a very capable Melo & Amare and you have 2 STARS. Maybe not SUPERSTARS, but STARS nonetheless. Add Felton, Kidd, Novak, and even JR and you got a bunch of guys who can hit last minute shots. The Spurs have Parker, Duncan, Ginobili. Don't include S-Jax because he can't. The Nuggets have none that are battle tested. Gallo looks like he can get there, but does he have what it takes? Does Lawson have what it takes and is he willing to give up the rock to Gallo when neeeded? Looks like that's to be determined later. YOU KNOW WHAT, I ONCE was like GTFOH with rondo leading that celtics team.. yes pierce was GREAT, Garnett a stud, but rondo was like the glue to that team... especially in the following years. It went from the big 3 and rondo, to really Rondo being the best player on that team.. quickly.. you can't take that away from him.. Also, I don't lump Billups with the ball-dominant PGs I'm talking about. Jason Kidd circa Dallas was a ball-dominant PG. There's also a reason his team couldn't beat the Lakers & Spurs and you know that too. LeBron's on another level in the NBA and it's a disgrace to lump him as a PG. Let's take him off that list. Sometimes the leader of the team doesn't have to be a PG or yet doesn't have to be a ball-dominant PG. Now if you don't think we have that leadership, that's debatable. I think this team has veteran leadership from the bench to the starting lineup. The leader doesn't necessarily need to be the best player on the team, though it certainly helps. yes, I do know why kidd didn't win.... the Spurs team was just better.. no reflection on kidd as he was one of the very best players in the league..what he did with that nets team was amazing.. And I am just not talking PG's here.. I mentioned lebron as special players, guys who can lead teams... of course the leader of a team does not have to be a PG.. I never said that.. it can come from anywhere.. still, I don't think we have that at all.. if kidd were 6 years younger and the face of this team, I might change that view.... And no the leader doesn't have to be the best player on the team, but when your team empowers the wrong guys, it makes it hard for anyone else to assume leadership roles...
but you do realize that the only reason they get those shots is not because of ball movement, but due to common sense AND the fact that the defense is basically paying attention to Michael Jordan because he is a THREAT to score. If Jordan was Gallo-lite or, better yet, if there were two Scottie Pippens on the team, Kerr & Paxson may not have even gotten the opportunity to score. you do realize that without jordan the bulls were close advancing again, if not for the gift we got on that hubert Davis foul...And yes defenses focus on Jordan, don't fool yourself, no one is doubling carmelo for a final shot, it hasn't happened in the playoffs, teams have been going at him straight up with guys like battier.. even then, jordan passed to those guys because they were capable, and he knew it was the right thing to do.... if there were two scottie pippens on that team, I would certainly believe they could muster a good shot with two talented players like that... with that said.. we don't have a jordan... or a pippen for that matter..
Put a very capable Melo & Amare and you have 2 STARS. Maybe not SUPERSTARS, but STARS nonetheless. Add Felton, Kidd, Novak, and even JR and you got a bunch of guys who can hit last minute shots. The Spurs have Parker, Duncan, Ginobili. Don't include S-Jax because he can't. this is where we differ.. and I will say this being a huge amare fan.. he is a finisher, and Dk mentioned this long ago, amare needs to be a better passer and play maker for others in order for the knicks to go to another level, he said this before the carmelo trade.. now in carmelo we have the similar problem.. he is not a playmaker, he doesn't make plays for others.. the other guys you mentioned.. parker, manu, wade, shaq, all were play makers.. huge difference... I just think you guys are expecting something out of carmelo that he has never been in 10 years and hasn't shown any consistent behavior in changing that... but again, we just dissagree here.... as far as guys who can make big shots.. kidd has proven he can, but he is aging and declining.. lets hope he has some big shots left in him... novak, jr, felton, they have to prove they can... we will see, I will give you that.. It remains to be seen..... not saying it can't, they just don't have that track record at this point.. but that can change.... I will say that guys like novak and to some degree felton have never really been given that type of chance... Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser...............
TKF
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