toad wrote:

sebstar wrote:

toad wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Fair enough but their values greatly diminished under Isiah as GM and coach

I don't like defending Isiah, but he was also under the pressure of cleaning up his predecessor's mess and quickly putting together a contender. He kept taking high risk pieces with no vision of how it would all fit. Hired the wrong coahes, including himself. Left a mess for the next guy to clean up with the same pressure to do it fast under an impatient meddling owner.

only difference there is that Isiah had absolutely zero to work with when he came here. The one asset he did have, h20, disintegrated his knee almost immediately. The anchor of our team was supposed to be a marbury/h20 backcourt. After that became a succession of ill-advised moves that compounded on one another. But he did amass serious talent along the way.

Walsh had plenty of talent to work with, and squandered almost all of it.

It doesn't matter if the talent you have looked so bad because of the lack of competence in the FO. In order to get value, Walsh would've had to bring in the right coach to get something out of them, raise their value, while implementing a long term vision of building a contender. That wasnt the plan. Walsh had little time to clear cap space to go after 2010, 2011 FAs. It should be obvious to everyone at this point that it's not just about talent. Players need the right environment to thrive.

It is what it is. But at least we have a contending team to enjoy for a couple of years. We should enjoy it while we can because as of now the cupboards are bare.

I already addressed this, but Ill repeat. The whole selling point behind the Dantoni hire was this idea that he was going to inflate the value of the roster as constituted, and also attract big name players like Lebron. He failed on both counts, especially on the first. Zach/Jamal were traded like 5 games into the regime. They were never given a chance to play under dantoni. Those assets were mismanaged. Walsh chose to sell low on them. They could always play, he just didnt believe in them.

sebstar wrote:

toad wrote:

sebstar wrote:

toad wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Fair enough but their values greatly diminished under Isiah as GM and coach

I don't like defending Isiah, but he was also under the pressure of cleaning up his predecessor's mess and quickly putting together a contender. He kept taking high risk pieces with no vision of how it would all fit. Hired the wrong coahes, including himself. Left a mess for the next guy to clean up with the same pressure to do it fast under an impatient meddling owner.

only difference there is that Isiah had absolutely zero to work with when he came here. The one asset he did have, h20, disintegrated his knee almost immediately. The anchor of our team was supposed to be a marbury/h20 backcourt. After that became a succession of ill-advised moves that compounded on one another. But he did amass serious talent along the way.

Walsh had plenty of talent to work with, and squandered almost all of it.

It doesn't matter if the talent you have looked so bad because of the lack of competence in the FO. In order to get value, Walsh would've had to bring in the right coach to get something out of them, raise their value, while implementing a long term vision of building a contender. That wasnt the plan. Walsh had little time to clear cap space to go after 2010, 2011 FAs. It should be obvious to everyone at this point that it's not just about talent. Players need the right environment to thrive.

It is what it is. But at least we have a contending team to enjoy for a couple of years. We should enjoy it while we can because as of now the cupboards are bare.

I already addressed this, but Ill repeat. The whole selling point behind the Dantoni hire was this idea that he was going to inflate the value of the roster as constituted, and also attract big name players like Lebron. He failed on both counts, especially on the first. Zach/Jamal were traded like 5 games into the regime. They were never given a chance to play under dantoni. Those assets were mismanaged. Walsh chose to sell low on them. They could always play, he just didnt believe in them.

It's true I think Zach and Jamal were sent away for peanuts, I don't even remember what we got back in that trade,

Not sure why we didn't hold to ZBO and Crawford and see what happens, had a really hot start that year then the fish was gutted

toad wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

toad wrote:

sebstar wrote:

toad wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Fair enough but their values greatly diminished under Isiah as GM and coach

I don't like defending Isiah, but he was also under the pressure of cleaning up his predecessor's mess and quickly putting together a contender. He kept taking high risk pieces with no vision of how it would all fit. Hired the wrong coahes, including himself. Left a mess for the next guy to clean up with the same pressure to do it fast under an impatient meddling owner.

only difference there is that Isiah had absolutely zero to work with when he came here. The one asset he did have, h20, disintegrated his knee almost immediately. The anchor of our team was supposed to be a marbury/h20 backcourt. After that became a succession of ill-advised moves that compounded on one another. But he did amass serious talent along the way.

Walsh had plenty of talent to work with, and squandered almost all of it.

It doesn't matter if the talent you have looked so bad because of the lack of competence in the FO. In order to get value, Walsh would've had to bring in the right coach to get something out of them, raise their value, while implementing a long term vision of building a contender. That wasnt the plan. Walsh had little time to clear cap space to go after 2010, 2011 FAs. It should be obvious to everyone at this point that it's not just about talent. Players need the right environment to thrive.

It is what it is. But at least we have a contending team to enjoy for a couple of years. We should enjoy it while we can because as of now the cupboards are bare.

Exactly enjoy it this year but its down hill from here

Not exactly what I said, but ok. There a lot of ways it can still go. And it's no joke to have a contending team to root for.

I don't see the team realistically getting better next year and the year after and then who knows were we go from there. One thing is certain Dolan will not build through the draft giving us a chance at the next Lebron, Wade, Melo, Durant, CP3 etc. JR is gonna leave,Kidd, Camby, Kurt and Sheed might retire, Amare is uninsured contract is untradeable, no cap space and flexibility, and no young assets other than Shump coming back from torn acl & mcl.

Better right the ship and win it all this year!

IronWillGiroud wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

toad wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

toad wrote:

sebstar wrote:

toad wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Fair enough but their values greatly diminished under Isiah as GM and coach

I don't like defending Isiah, but he was also under the pressure of cleaning up his predecessor's mess and quickly putting together a contender. He kept taking high risk pieces with no vision of how it would all fit. Hired the wrong coahes, including himself. Left a mess for the next guy to clean up with the same pressure to do it fast under an impatient meddling owner.

only difference there is that Isiah had absolutely zero to work with when he came here. The one asset he did have, h20, disintegrated his knee almost immediately. The anchor of our team was supposed to be a marbury/h20 backcourt. After that became a succession of ill-advised moves that compounded on one another. But he did amass serious talent along the way.

Walsh had plenty of talent to work with, and squandered almost all of it.

It doesn't matter if the talent you have looked so bad because of the lack of competence in the FO. In order to get value, Walsh would've had to bring in the right coach to get something out of them, raise their value, while implementing a long term vision of building a contender. That wasnt the plan. Walsh had little time to clear cap space to go after 2010, 2011 FAs. It should be obvious to everyone at this point that it's not just about talent. Players need the right environment to thrive.

It is what it is. But at least we have a contending team to enjoy for a couple of years. We should enjoy it while we can because as of now the cupboards are bare.

Exactly enjoy it this year but its down hill from here

Not exactly what I said, but ok. There a lot of ways it can still go. And it's no joke to have a contending team to root for.

I don't see the team realistically getting better next year and the year after. JR is gonna leave,Kidd, Camby, Kurt and Sheed might retire, Amare is uninsured contract is untradeable, no cap space and flexibility, and no young assets other than Shump coming back from torn acl & mcl.

Better right the ship and win it all this year!

I basically said the same thing when discussing Amar'e and his 15 minutes per game, it will cut it this year but not next,

We're built to win now, as crazy as that sounds,

Guys aren't getting younger, Kidd is one foot in the grave, his production WILL decrease every season he is with us,

Good luck fortifying the squad with old former Knicks next season and the season after: this was like a one-shot thing we had going this year,

Again.THE SKY IS FALLING THE SKY IS FALLING SMFH

IronWillGiroud wrote:

sebstar wrote:

toad wrote:

sebstar wrote:

toad wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Fair enough but their values greatly diminished under Isiah as GM and coach

I don't like defending Isiah, but he was also under the pressure of cleaning up his predecessor's mess and quickly putting together a contender. He kept taking high risk pieces with no vision of how it would all fit. Hired the wrong coahes, including himself. Left a mess for the next guy to clean up with the same pressure to do it fast under an impatient meddling owner.

only difference there is that Isiah had absolutely zero to work with when he came here. The one asset he did have, h20, disintegrated his knee almost immediately. The anchor of our team was supposed to be a marbury/h20 backcourt. After that became a succession of ill-advised moves that compounded on one another. But he did amass serious talent along the way.

Walsh had plenty of talent to work with, and squandered almost all of it.

It doesn't matter if the talent you have looked so bad because of the lack of competence in the FO. In order to get value, Walsh would've had to bring in the right coach to get something out of them, raise their value, while implementing a long term vision of building a contender. That wasnt the plan. Walsh had little time to clear cap space to go after 2010, 2011 FAs. It should be obvious to everyone at this point that it's not just about talent. Players need the right environment to thrive.

It is what it is. But at least we have a contending team to enjoy for a couple of years. We should enjoy it while we can because as of now the cupboards are bare.

I already addressed this, but Ill repeat. The whole selling point behind the Dantoni hire was this idea that he was going to inflate the value of the roster as constituted, and also attract big name players like Lebron. He failed on both counts, especially on the first. Zach/Jamal were traded like 5 games into the regime. They were never given a chance to play under dantoni. Those assets were mismanaged. Walsh chose to sell low on them. They could always play, he just didnt believe in them.

It's true I think Zach and Jamal were sent away for peanuts, I don't even remember what we got back in that trade,

Not sure why we didn't hold to ZBO and Crawford and see what happens, had a really hot start that year then the fish was gutted

it still baffles me to this day. we started out with a winning record --- then all of a sudden zach/jamal were traded for nothing. If they would have had a good season, they could have commanded far more than what we received.

sebstar wrote:

IronWillGiroud wrote:

sebstar wrote:

toad wrote:

sebstar wrote:

toad wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Fair enough but their values greatly diminished under Isiah as GM and coach

I don't like defending Isiah, but he was also under the pressure of cleaning up his predecessor's mess and quickly putting together a contender. He kept taking high risk pieces with no vision of how it would all fit. Hired the wrong coahes, including himself. Left a mess for the next guy to clean up with the same pressure to do it fast under an impatient meddling owner.

only difference there is that Isiah had absolutely zero to work with when he came here. The one asset he did have, h20, disintegrated his knee almost immediately. The anchor of our team was supposed to be a marbury/h20 backcourt. After that became a succession of ill-advised moves that compounded on one another. But he did amass serious talent along the way.

Walsh had plenty of talent to work with, and squandered almost all of it.

It doesn't matter if the talent you have looked so bad because of the lack of competence in the FO. In order to get value, Walsh would've had to bring in the right coach to get something out of them, raise their value, while implementing a long term vision of building a contender. That wasnt the plan. Walsh had little time to clear cap space to go after 2010, 2011 FAs. It should be obvious to everyone at this point that it's not just about talent. Players need the right environment to thrive.

It is what it is. But at least we have a contending team to enjoy for a couple of years. We should enjoy it while we can because as of now the cupboards are bare.

I already addressed this, but Ill repeat. The whole selling point behind the Dantoni hire was this idea that he was going to inflate the value of the roster as constituted, and also attract big name players like Lebron. He failed on both counts, especially on the first. Zach/Jamal were traded like 5 games into the regime. They were never given a chance to play under dantoni. Those assets were mismanaged. Walsh chose to sell low on them. They could always play, he just didnt believe in them.

It's true I think Zach and Jamal were sent away for peanuts, I don't even remember what we got back in that trade,

Not sure why we didn't hold to ZBO and Crawford and see what happens, had a really hot start that year then the fish was gutted

it still baffles me to this day. we started out with a winning record --- then all of a sudden zach/jamal were traded for nothing. If they would have had a good season, they could have commanded far more than what we received.

It goes back to Isiah and the Knicks and fans wanting to erase that era as quickly as possible. Hindsight they should've waited like you said and got more value and still went after Lebron but it is what it is

Trading Lee for Amare was a head scratcher and now it clearly looks like a bad trade. At the time, it did appear that Amare helped us to attract talent. The knees were and issue and now we are seeing what Phoenix was worried about.

I am not so broken up about the Melo trade now. Like many of you though, the Lin debacle was just that. You don't let talent like that walk. I can't believe he is only making 5 mill this year (5+5+15 = I take that).

earthmansurfer wrote:Even though the players we sent over for Melo are not playing as well as they did here, the thing we can't forget is that many players play better in NY (and some can't handle it).
What did the pick we lost to Denver turn into? Was that Faried, I forget.

Trading Lee for Amare was a head scratcher and now it clearly looks like a bad trade. At the time, it did appear that Amare helped us to attract talent. The knees were and issue and now we are seeing what Phoenix was worried about.

I am not so broken up about the Melo trade now. Like many of you though, the Lin debacle was just that. You don't let talent like that walk. I can't believe he is only making 5 mill this year (5+5+15 = I take that).

its a '14 pick. It hasnt been used yet. We actually could have drafted faried, but we picked shump

smackeddog wrote:Wilson Chandler is permanently injured. We got Felton back. Only players we gave away were Gallo and Mosgov- I don't get this thread at all.

Without signing Amar'e and letting Lee go, Melo and Tyson wouldn't of signed with us (or Kidd or Sheed etc)- that is a fact that they have both stated.

People will ignore this just like they ignore that, despite having a lot of injuries and melo is still playing hurt along with brewer and that amare is working himself back, that we are 1 game behind Miami. These lineups are not close to what we will see down the stretch. This is really weak, we go through a rough stretch and the melo trade is coming back to bite us???

Again only players we lost is an inconsistent gallo, moz, and chandler who haven't seen the court this year! We have our draft pick this year, so we will add another player. Like I said, both of our starting guards are out right now ... I just don't see the big deal.

But I'll make sure to bookmark this for later. Enjoy!

sebstar wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

sebstar wrote:

franco12 wrote:its not just the Melo trade - its every deal made over the last 5-10 years.

This franchise is essentially over-leveraged like a bank - and they borrow against tomorrow for a mediocre today.

Letting Lin go for nothing is just one more example of mismanagement.

Signing Amar'e when we missed out on Lebron - another move that might have been better played by keeping Lee (possibly at a home team discount?) rather than signing a star just for the sake of making a move.

Great post...to flesh this out, we essentially traded Zach, crawford, lee, and two lottery pics just to have the OPTION of signing lebron james and another big free agent. That strategy failed, and all we had to show for it was Amare, who is broken down.

Thats the reason why we had to rely on older talent...not the melo trade. We gave up mediocre talent for a top 5 player in his prime. Get real. The cupboard was bare when melo was traded her, because of the mismanagement of the previous regime.

We got Amar'e, who got Felton and Melo, who got JR and Tyson, who got Kidd, Camby and Sheed. Fair or not, Zach Randolph and Crawford were not draws to other players.

And I get so sick of this blazing hypocrisy and revisionist history. People HATED Zach for his lack of defense. They spent Jamal Crawford's entire stint here blasting him for shot selection and poor defense. People wined none stop about 'Avid Lee' and his complete lack of D. Now they are gods, while people blast the players we do have. Its the same c*** over and over! AAAAARRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!

Thats because NY sucks as a sports city, and is hyper-critical of its own players, and wants 'em run out of town after a two game losing streak. Look how people around here talk about woody, felton, and melo --- and melo is a top 5 player. Look the at the way we treated Ewing and other great stars. Ny'ers are entitled idiots with agendas.

Dont put me in that category. I always knew Zach, Jamal, and lee could ball. They were just in the wrong environment, team wise. We gave them up for peanuts. In a vacuum, that has had a negative effect on our current roster. We should have at least received decent talent in return. Is anyone we traded them for still on the roster? And they were players in their prime.

I agree this is not Melo's fault. If you want to hate someone hate LeBron who played us like a 2 string guitar. Wearing NY hats and winking his eyes like he was coming. We were suckered into thinking we had a chance with Lebron. But LeBron was smart not to come to New York because we would have chased him out of town. Do you really think that Lebron's numbers would be the same as they are in Miami? I doubt it. Half of the people on this form like TKF would be hating and complaining. We would still have Trolls running here complaining. When we gave up Crawford, Zach Randolph , and Lee, when we had a winning record, that was the begining of the end for us. We got nothing back in hopes of getting Lebron. We also was looking over our sholder at the Nets with a new Statium so we had to do something so we got Amare who did a good job till he broke down.

gunsnewing wrote:So who's fault is this really?

Trading Lee, adding Amare

Trading half the team for Melo

Choosing not to resign Lin in an act of rage

Answerman says....

Jimmy Bean Dolan!!

not Grunwald or the previous GM

bingo..... this guy has been the single most destructive force to this franchise in years!!