Hersports85 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

fishmike wrote:Look... Melo is playing great ball. I didnt make that list to knock him, just to illuminate what is obvious to some. Knicks are better because the team is better.

Whats funny is the minions desperate need to validate his greatness. Melo is the same Melo he's always been. Playing better defense? Sure, Ill bite.

Knicks big story is the backcourt. Funny how Jason Kidd and Felton having a career year are more effective than last year's starters Toney Douglas and Landry Fields. Because its all Melo and coaching right?

When the same things were argued when he was losing though y wasn't this valid then though? Minions desperate need to validate his greatness is the same as the minions desperate need to devalue and downgrade him. At this point its clearly more of a pissing contest then anything else.

But the guy loses in the playoffs with the Knicks with some depleted rosters and all ppl wanted to talk about was how he was a playoff loser. Y wasn't perspective granted at that point in time?

If you believe that Melo hasn't greatly improved which can be a fair analysis, but has a better cast around him allowing him to be more successful. Isn't that all that was asked when ppl were blasting his playoff failures?

Durant doesn't get downgraded for being able to play with Westbrook, Ibaka and Harden/Martin. Pierce doesn't get downgraded for being able to play with Rondo, Allen, Garnett. Etc...

My point exactly. And if KD or Pierce didn't have those guys, I bet we will be talking about how they're a ball hog as well because they will feel the need to do it themselves.

newyorknewyork wrote:Let me put it this way. The Knicks winning right now is due to the great PG play. Now hypothetically if the Knicks(Knock on wood) lose in the 2nd rd of the playoffs we all know who is going to take the blame for it alone.

Bonn1997 wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

tkf wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Putting people in position to succeed and covering there weaknesses = winning formula.
Putting people in position to fail and then bashing them for not overcoming all obsticales = losing/dysfunctional formula.

A lot of the knocks on Melo were legit at the same time he was slightly over criticized. The problem I had was the viewpoint that he would never get better or ever find success when over the yrs of watching basketball we have seen tons of players do so in the later parts of there careers.

this more than anything else.

Is Melo shooting better?
Is Melo rebounding more?
Is Melo getting more assists?
Is Melo getting more steals? FTS?

How do you quanity Melo doing anything better than he has done the reason of his career?

He's an star and he's playing like an all star. Team is better and winning more games because the team is better so they are winning more games.

Is Melo shooting better?

NO

Is Melo rebounding more?

NO

Is Melo getting more assists?

absolutely NOT..

Is Melo getting more steals? FTS?

NO

How do you quanity Melo doing anything better than he has done the reason of his career?

good post, but you must remember around here...

he is a Knick Fish, the heart wants to believe what the heart wants to believe...

again, I am more impressed with how kidd is playing than anything else...

Wow...you can't even do the work to compare his season stats to his career numbers? He's at his career averages for everything except 3pt FG% (up by 13) and assists (down by 1 because he's on the court with 2 point guards most of the time).

You obviously put on a show to get the board riled up. If not, it's beyond me how you or anyone else can't support Melo when he is doing everything ever asked of him.

OK, SO what are you talking about, fish was asking is he doing anything better.. overall, he isn't... the end bro..

Oh I see. You're saying his career numbers are bad. This means you have no basketball perspective whatsoever. The end bro...

You don't see any ground between "elite" and "bad"? Maybe you are the one who lacks perspective.

Of course I do! I commented the other day that if "Great" is MJ, Magic, Bird, etc, then Melo is not great. But to use his very good numbers and say they are not elite, thus the Knicks would be doing this without him, is BS. What this boils down to is people want Melo to be LeBron. That will never ever ever ever happen. Yes, we paid a hig price for Melo, but in the end it was the right call. It took time to build a good team around him but you have to start somewhere.

And to your comment that we'd by .400 without Tyson and Kidd, that's like saying MJ would never have won a title without Pippen and guys like Grant, Rodman, etc. Basically, you're saying Melo isn't the type of difference maker that you can win with no matter what the rest of the roster looks like. But who is? The only guy that you can make a case for is LeBron, and even he didn't do it until he was playing with Wade and Bosh.

What exactly are we arguing????

tkf wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

fishmike wrote:Look... Melo is playing great ball. I didnt make that list to knock him, just to illuminate what is obvious to some. Knicks are better because the team is better.

Whats funny is the minions desperate need to validate his greatness. Melo is the same Melo he's always been. Playing better defense? Sure, Ill bite.

Knicks big story is the backcourt. Funny how Jason Kidd and Felton having a career year are more effective than last year's starters Toney Douglas and Landry Fields. Because its all Melo and coaching right?

When the same things were argued when he was losing though y wasn't this valid then though? Minions desperate need to validate his greatness is the same as the minions desperate need to devalue and downgrade him. At this point its clearly more of a pissing contest then anything else.

But the guy loses in the playoffs with the Knicks with some depleted rosters and all ppl wanted to talk about was how he was a playoff loser. Y wasn't perspective granted at that point in time?

If you believe that Melo hasn't greatly improved which can be a fair analysis, but has a better cast around him allowing him to be more successful. Isn't that all that was asked when ppl were blasting his playoff failures?

Durant doesn't get downgraded for being able to play with Westbrook, Ibaka and Harden/Martin. Pierce doesn't get downgraded for being able to play with Rondo, Allen, Garnett. Etc...

everyone can play better with a better cast around them.. but so called star players should make those around them better.. carmelo doesn't do that.. heck kidd does that more than he does... durant makes those around him better, not the other way around, the same with garnett and rondo.....

Garnett was one of the most complete basketball players in the NBA who made players better not only offensively but defensively as well. Great passer, doiminant rebounder, defender, can score in a variety of ways. He also didn't get past the first rd of the playoffs for the first 8yrs of his career until going on to play with Pierce, Allen, Rondo. I have yet to see Durant play a full season without Westbrook and Ibaka etc.. (Westbrook)who is a high productive motor which takes major pressure off Durant allowing him to stay fresh even when on the court and save his max energy for closing the show. To judge Durant on his ability to carry non-allstar calibre players to a higher level. Same with Rondo though we will be finding out with Rondo very soon. I know Pierce didn't do much for yrs until he got his reinforcments.

MSG3 wrote:
Of course I do! I commented the other day that if "Great" is MJ, Magic, Bird, etc, then Melo is not great. But to use his very good numbers and say they are not elite, thus the Knicks would be doing this without him, is BS. What this boils down to is people want Melo to be LeBron. That will never ever ever ever happen. Yes, we paid a hig price for Melo, but in the end it was the right call. It took time to build a good team around him but you have to start somewhere.

And to your comment that we'd by .400 without Tyson and Kidd, that's like saying MJ would never have won a title without Pippen and guys like Grant, Rodman, etc. Basically, you're saying Melo isn't the type of difference maker that you can win with no matter what the rest of the roster looks like. But who is? The only guy that you can make a case for is LeBron, and even he didn't do it until he was playing with Wade and Bosh.

What exactly are we arguing????

You are arguing with people intent on giving Melo no credit. They kill Melo for losing with bad players. The give Melo zero credit for winning (thus far this season) with good players. They create double and triple standards and focus on "advanced" stats when the stats typically relied upon do not provide the result they desire. There is no legitimate conversation to be had with certain posters.

Is Melo Michael Jordan? No. Is Melo Olajuwon? No. Is Melo Lebron? No. Is Melo playing at an elite level this year? Yes. Is Melo playing good defense this year? Yes. Is Melo helping the Knicks win in an offense built around his skill-set? Yes.

MSG3 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

tkf wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Putting people in position to succeed and covering there weaknesses = winning formula.
Putting people in position to fail and then bashing them for not overcoming all obsticales = losing/dysfunctional formula.

A lot of the knocks on Melo were legit at the same time he was slightly over criticized. The problem I had was the viewpoint that he would never get better or ever find success when over the yrs of watching basketball we have seen tons of players do so in the later parts of there careers.

this more than anything else.

Is Melo shooting better?
Is Melo rebounding more?
Is Melo getting more assists?
Is Melo getting more steals? FTS?

How do you quanity Melo doing anything better than he has done the reason of his career?

He's an star and he's playing like an all star. Team is better and winning more games because the team is better so they are winning more games.

Is Melo shooting better?

NO

Is Melo rebounding more?

NO

Is Melo getting more assists?

absolutely NOT..

Is Melo getting more steals? FTS?

NO

How do you quanity Melo doing anything better than he has done the reason of his career?

good post, but you must remember around here...

he is a Knick Fish, the heart wants to believe what the heart wants to believe...

again, I am more impressed with how kidd is playing than anything else...

Wow...you can't even do the work to compare his season stats to his career numbers? He's at his career averages for everything except 3pt FG% (up by 13) and assists (down by 1 because he's on the court with 2 point guards most of the time).

You obviously put on a show to get the board riled up. If not, it's beyond me how you or anyone else can't support Melo when he is doing everything ever asked of him.

OK, SO what are you talking about, fish was asking is he doing anything better.. overall, he isn't... the end bro..

Oh I see. You're saying his career numbers are bad. This means you have no basketball perspective whatsoever. The end bro...

You don't see any ground between "elite" and "bad"? Maybe you are the one who lacks perspective.

Of course I do! I commented the other day that if "Great" is MJ, Magic, Bird, etc, then Melo is not great. But to use his very good numbers and say they are not elite, thus the Knicks would be doing this without him, is BS. What this boils down to is people want Melo to be LeBron. That will never ever ever ever happen. Yes, we paid a hig price for Melo, but in the end it was the right call. It took time to build a good team around him but you have to start somewhere.

And to your comment that we'd by .400 without Tyson and Kidd, that's like saying MJ would never have won a title without Pippen and guys like Grant, Rodman, etc. Basically, you're saying Melo isn't the type of difference maker that you can win with no matter what the rest of the roster looks like. But who is? The only guy that you can make a case for is LeBron, and even he didn't do it until he was playing with Wade and Bosh.

What exactly are we arguing????

fishmike wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Let me put it this way. The Knicks winning right now is due to the great PG play. Now hypothetically if the Knicks(Knock on wood) lose in the 2nd rd of the playoffs we all know who is going to take the blame for it alone.

its all in the sell isnt it? Im perfectly comfortable with living and dying with the success of the team. We lose the team wasnt good enough. We win we were the better team.

Seems to me there is a lot of chatter around here that really finds it important to show prove illuminate dictate establish and bludgeon us all with the notion that the improvement starts and lives with Melo, that he is an MVP, that he is the differnce maker, that he is a natural born winner and true leader.

You cant have your cake and eat it too can you? If you (generic folks) want to call Melo MVP and difference maker and the motor that drives this ship then you can damn well deal with shouldering the burden of failure no?

So yea.. If Melo is all those things and Dereck Rose's Bulls knock us out in round one all those desperate to prove the above can shove it up their backsides. Whats really sad is those same people assume that the rest of the HATERS actually WANT that scenario. Pathetic but it tells you the mindset.

He already took the burden for our last 2 playoff failures, let the guy have some fun and undue praise now that were winning. We all know blame will come fast and furious if we start losing.

Fish Ive known you as a poster going back to the MSG message board days going on like 10+ yrs. I know your a huge homer who is just rebelling at the moment.

Some of these other guys I don't know to well and they sure do make it seem that way.

To me he's ARod with groupies, except at least ARod has the MVPs and individual awards. Melo doesnt have that. Playoff failure after playoff failure. All his fault? Of course not, but at some point the excuse making gets old. ARod had some MONSTER playoff series that carried the Yanks to a title that year. The rest he's been terrible. Knick fans (and rest of NBA) are just waiting for him to take over. To see one playoff series end with a win and says thats our guy.

Until that happens we can just gloss over his greatness in the NBA threads.

Bonn1997 wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

tkf wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Putting people in position to succeed and covering there weaknesses = winning formula.
Putting people in position to fail and then bashing them for not overcoming all obsticales = losing/dysfunctional formula.

A lot of the knocks on Melo were legit at the same time he was slightly over criticized. The problem I had was the viewpoint that he would never get better or ever find success when over the yrs of watching basketball we have seen tons of players do so in the later parts of there careers.

this more than anything else.

Is Melo shooting better?
Is Melo rebounding more?
Is Melo getting more assists?
Is Melo getting more steals? FTS?

How do you quanity Melo doing anything better than he has done the reason of his career?

He's an star and he's playing like an all star. Team is better and winning more games because the team is better so they are winning more games.

Is Melo shooting better?

NO

Is Melo rebounding more?

NO

Is Melo getting more assists?

absolutely NOT..

Is Melo getting more steals? FTS?

NO

How do you quanity Melo doing anything better than he has done the reason of his career?

good post, but you must remember around here...

he is a Knick Fish, the heart wants to believe what the heart wants to believe...

again, I am more impressed with how kidd is playing than anything else...

Wow...you can't even do the work to compare his season stats to his career numbers? He's at his career averages for everything except 3pt FG% (up by 13) and assists (down by 1 because he's on the court with 2 point guards most of the time).

You obviously put on a show to get the board riled up. If not, it's beyond me how you or anyone else can't support Melo when he is doing everything ever asked of him.

OK, SO what are you talking about, fish was asking is he doing anything better.. overall, he isn't... the end bro..

Oh I see. You're saying his career numbers are bad. This means you have no basketball perspective whatsoever. The end bro...

You don't see any ground between "elite" and "bad"? Maybe you are the one who lacks perspective.

Of course I do! I commented the other day that if "Great" is MJ, Magic, Bird, etc, then Melo is not great. But to use his very good numbers and say they are not elite, thus the Knicks would be doing this without him, is BS. What this boils down to is people want Melo to be LeBron. That will never ever ever ever happen. Yes, we paid a hig price for Melo, but in the end it was the right call. It took time to build a good team around him but you have to start somewhere.

And to your comment that we'd by .400 without Tyson and Kidd, that's like saying MJ would never have won a title without Pippen and guys like Grant, Rodman, etc. Basically, you're saying Melo isn't the type of difference maker that you can win with no matter what the rest of the roster looks like. But who is? The only guy that you can make a case for is LeBron, and even he didn't do it until he was playing with Wade and Bosh.

What exactly are we arguing????

No, it's not. Saying that Michael would have been on a .400 team without those guys is the same.
My point is that Melo is the same player, and thus with the same teammates we would have the same result as in the past. The only thing that's changed is his surroundings. If you didn't think he was an MVP candidate before, you shouldn't now.

This is a flawed argument. You should only be in the running for MVP if you have a season where your numbers are better than historical averages? And only if the team can't be good without you? MJ won MVP awards, but his team still went to game 7 of the conference semi's without him. Should he have not won the MVP awards that he did?

newyorknewyork wrote:

fishmike wrote:nyny... Pierce made a few trips to the ECF with Anoine Walker as a running mate. Granted the East was dreadful but he won a lot of playoff games before Boston added KG, Ray and Rondo

Melo is a better player, but who's career would you rather have?

Id take Pierce career easy as it stands. He has a championship and has gotten to play with one of my favorite players in Garnett. IMO though if Melo's Denver teams were playing in the east vs the same comp Melo would probably have the same success as Pierce did at that time. But again thats just my opinion.

I don't think Boston's style of play was really a threat to beat any top flight team. They just jacked up a ton of 3s, I didn't really see Pierce carry his team to greatness or anything but it was a long time ago I don't really remember.

Like I said and will continue to say.. some folks are simply waiting to see Melo's greatness when it counts the most. Also seems like for each of his great playoff games he's laid an egg also. Hard to win a series when your best player is so eratic. We traded our roster, picks, cap space and paid this guy max money to come here and be the man, but people get so sensitive when you mention or expect him to be a difference maker come this spring.

TheloniusMonk wrote:Just used the ignore feature. Thank God. Hopefully, it will help make my experience with this forum go back to being based on knowledgable fans.