tkf wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

knickscity wrote:They are lotto without him.

I do wanna reserve the MVP talk after 3 games tho.

I think this is finally the year Melo's solidifies himself as a top NBA player. Yes we are a lotto team without him no doubt.

It depends on who he's being replaced with. If you mean the team just lost him, then yes. If you replaced him with another solid starter at the SF position, we'd still be 3-0 though. The success has more to do with the crazy scoring efficiency we're getting from several players.

Slightly disagree Bonn. I think the attention Melo has been getting frome defenses is leading to the offensive efficiency we're enjoying. Not many other players would command that kind of attention. Not sure if we'd be 3-0 or having the same success on offense (or defense for that matter) if you replace Melo with a healthy STAT, for example.

Yeah if you watched the games and see the attention he demands, you realize it is the main factor for the hot shooting. Just looking at offensive efficiency alone, i agree, this team would still be 3-0 if you take him off the team and replace him with another forward. But watching the games and understanding what you're seeing makes it very obvious the shooting is a result of a couple of things that have to do with Melo. We just wouldn't be shooting the ball this well if we didn't have a player on the floor who demands so much attention.

that is not true.. it is absolutely not true.. the knicks are not going to shoot this well, just not.. they are also making a lot of threes , not necessarily great shots.. ronnie brewer is horrible 3 point shooter and he nailed two threes with someone on him, that had nothing to do with carmelo... carmelo came out and shot 10-28 the first game.. no team is paying that much attention to him.. the sixers guarded him straight up with thadeus young for most of the game..

These are guys who have been efficient their whole careers (Novak, Brewer, Chandler, Kidd, Camby when he returns). It's not Melo - it's the outstanding job Grunwald did. Obviously they're not going to stay this efficient but we will still have a very good offense.

Its called putting people in position to succced by complimenting there game. Its funny that now its all of a sudden because he got shooters because of grunwald when last season it was argued that he just doesn't win or take good shots period not because of the team around him and everything else was excuses.

you guys act as if the knicks are 82-0 , after 3 games there is just no evidence to prove this so called "carmelo effect"...jeez....

Well since Woody and Melo have been given full control, besides playing the best team in basketball in the playoffs. This team has looked pretty damn good for 30+ games now. They have been playing defense, using ball movement, knocking down 3s and winning games.

You guys keep talking about the 3s won't keep dropping which is true, we will still hit a solid amount though. But what about the defense? What about the limited turn overs from the offense and high volume from the defense? These aren't aborations becaus we have players that play good defense and we have players that can hit open 3s. Its not like we have scrubs playing out of there minds.

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

knickscity wrote:They are lotto without him.

I do wanna reserve the MVP talk after 3 games tho.

I think this is finally the year Melo's solidifies himself as a top NBA player. Yes we are a lotto team without him no doubt.

It depends on who he's being replaced with. If you mean the team just lost him, then yes. If you replaced him with another solid starter at the SF position, we'd still be 3-0 though. The success has more to do with the crazy scoring efficiency we're getting from several players.

Slightly disagree Bonn. I think the attention Melo has been getting frome defenses is leading to the offensive efficiency we're enjoying. Not many other players would command that kind of attention. Not sure if we'd be 3-0 or having the same success on offense (or defense for that matter) if you replace Melo with a healthy STAT, for example.

Yeah if you watched the games and see the attention he demands, you realize it is the main factor for the hot shooting. Just looking at offensive efficiency alone, i agree, this team would still be 3-0 if you take him off the team and replace him with another forward. But watching the games and understanding what you're seeing makes it very obvious the shooting is a result of a couple of things that have to do with Melo. We just wouldn't be shooting the ball this well if we didn't have a player on the floor who demands so much attention.

that is not true.. it is absolutely not true.. the knicks are not going to shoot this well, just not.. they are also making a lot of threes , not necessarily great shots.. ronnie brewer is horrible 3 point shooter and he nailed two threes with someone on him, that had nothing to do with carmelo... carmelo came out and shot 10-28 the first game.. no team is paying that much attention to him.. the sixers guarded him straight up with thadeus young for most of the game..

These are guys who have been efficient their whole careers (Novak, Brewer, Chandler, Kidd, Camby when he returns). It's not Melo - it's the outstanding job Grunwald did. Obviously they're not going to stay this efficient but we will still have a very good offense.

Its called putting people in position to succced by complimenting there game. Its funny that now its all of a sudden because he got shooters because of grunwald when last season it was argued that he just doesn't win or take good shots period not because of the team around him and everything else was excuses.

When I call him Mr. .470, I'm just giving his supporters a hard time. Team success is dependent on 12 players. I would never look at the record those 12 players have produced and attribute it to any one player. The .470 record occurred because the Melo trade drained the entire team and it took 2 years and brilliant work by Grunwald to recover from it. It was more a reflection on the entire Melo trade than on Melo himself.

Wasn't this the plan though as its easier to fill in the pieces around star then it is to land a star. And it took a yr and a half, but 2 offseason. The team didn' have as much success becuse they swapped Billups for Chandler basically killing MDA's ability to run his offense. They were still in transition period where they sacrificed the balance of the roster for the long term.. Then they wanted to run the offense through Lin who requires space as he is a penitrator the only problem was he was playing with lane cloggers with Melo, Amare, and Tyson. We had the wrong coach with the wrong system for the wrong players to play in it. There was no space for any of our better players to play there games or for MDA to play his system together putting them all in position to fail and expose there weakness. But that goes with the transition now It seems that they know what type of pieces will work with Melos game. Credit to Grunwald and Woody for acknowledging the flaws in the roster or at least getting lucky.

"I’ve said all along: it’s not how many minutes you get. It’s what you do with the minutes that you get. I’m a big believer in that. I’m not here to satisfy anybody. I’m here to coach this team the best way I’m capable of coaching it along with the staff. When you get in the game, you’ve got to perform and play."

MSG3 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

knickscity wrote:They are lotto without him.

I do wanna reserve the MVP talk after 3 games tho.

I think this is finally the year Melo's solidifies himself as a top NBA player. Yes we are a lotto team without him no doubt.

It depends on who he's being replaced with. If you mean the team just lost him, then yes. If you replaced him with another solid starter at the SF position, we'd still be 3-0 though. The success has more to do with the crazy scoring efficiency we're getting from several players.

Slightly disagree Bonn. I think the attention Melo has been getting frome defenses is leading to the offensive efficiency we're enjoying. Not many other players would command that kind of attention. Not sure if we'd be 3-0 or having the same success on offense (or defense for that matter) if you replace Melo with a healthy STAT, for example.

Yeah if you watched the games and see the attention he demands, you realize it is the main factor for the hot shooting. Just looking at offensive efficiency alone, i agree, this team would still be 3-0 if you take him off the team and replace him with another forward. But watching the games and understanding what you're seeing makes it very obvious the shooting is a result of a couple of things that have to do with Melo. We just wouldn't be shooting the ball this well if we didn't have a player on the floor who demands so much attention.

that is not true.. it is absolutely not true.. the knicks are not going to shoot this well, just not.. they are also making a lot of threes , not necessarily great shots.. ronnie brewer is horrible 3 point shooter and he nailed two threes with someone on him, that had nothing to do with carmelo... carmelo came out and shot 10-28 the first game.. no team is paying that much attention to him.. the sixers guarded him straight up with thadeus young for most of the game..

They are shooting very well and it won't continue, but if you think Melo has nothing to do with it then there is no point in this conversation. You are just not watching the games.

ok, so you admit the shooting won't continue, and since you also feel that carmelo has a lot to do with it, when they stop shooting well are you going to blame him for that? if not, then stop giving him credit...

I am watching the games and there is NOTHING that he is doing that is attributing to guys like brewer hitting threes and rasheed throwing up practice threes that are going in.....

never underestimate the power of denial

Do you have any evidence for this idea that Melo improves the shooting of his teammates? Is there a long list of players' whose percentages plummeted after no longer being on Melo's team?

If you were arguing that Steve Nash or Jason Kidd improve the offense of their teammates, I'd find it much more plausible.

Thats because you don't watch the games. Numbers don't tell the whole story. Guys have to hit shots, but passing out of a double team and the ball swinging quickly to the opposite side of the double are creating wide open looks. And we have better shooters on the floor now.

You're just repeating your hypothesis. I was asking for evidence.

No that's not proof enough for Bonn. Post a spreadsheet.

at any point any player that is being guarded by a guy out of position is going to get doubled. .from carmelo down to thadeus young... vs the magic he had jameer on him at one time, and the magic did the right thing.... again, we can show you videos where roy hibbert, carlos boozer, granger, etc all have been doubled before.....

This myth that teams are game planning so much for carmelo that is has made such a monumental impact on this team is hilarious... these highlights were from last year.. so I ask, why didn't the heat double carmelo much and went at him straight up with battier? if you read the scouting report battier has on carmelo(which was actually posted here by another poster) you will see why most teams will not double carmelo.. and guess what.. it is not because he is a fantastic passer.. that is for sure...

But anyway sad that once again threads turn into "knicks diss threads".

It's still early, but as a fan i like this solid start.

Sad other can't say that.

MSG3 wrote:

tkf wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

MSG3 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

knickscity wrote:They are lotto without him.

I do wanna reserve the MVP talk after 3 games tho.

I think this is finally the year Melo's solidifies himself as a top NBA player. Yes we are a lotto team without him no doubt.

It depends on who he's being replaced with. If you mean the team just lost him, then yes. If you replaced him with another solid starter at the SF position, we'd still be 3-0 though. The success has more to do with the crazy scoring efficiency we're getting from several players.

Slightly disagree Bonn. I think the attention Melo has been getting frome defenses is leading to the offensive efficiency we're enjoying. Not many other players would command that kind of attention. Not sure if we'd be 3-0 or having the same success on offense (or defense for that matter) if you replace Melo with a healthy STAT, for example.

Yeah if you watched the games and see the attention he demands, you realize it is the main factor for the hot shooting. Just looking at offensive efficiency alone, i agree, this team would still be 3-0 if you take him off the team and replace him with another forward. But watching the games and understanding what you're seeing makes it very obvious the shooting is a result of a couple of things that have to do with Melo. We just wouldn't be shooting the ball this well if we didn't have a player on the floor who demands so much attention.

that is not true.. it is absolutely not true.. the knicks are not going to shoot this well, just not.. they are also making a lot of threes , not necessarily great shots.. ronnie brewer is horrible 3 point shooter and he nailed two threes with someone on him, that had nothing to do with carmelo... carmelo came out and shot 10-28 the first game.. no team is paying that much attention to him.. the sixers guarded him straight up with thadeus young for most of the game..

They are shooting very well and it won't continue, but if you think Melo has nothing to do with it then there is no point in this conversation. You are just not watching the games.

ok, so you admit the shooting won't continue, and since you also feel that carmelo has a lot to do with it, when they stop shooting well are you going to blame him for that? if not, then stop giving him credit...

I am watching the games and there is NOTHING that he is doing that is attributing to guys like brewer hitting threes and rasheed throwing up practice threes that are going in.....

never underestimate the power of denial

Do you have any evidence for this idea that Melo improves the shooting of his teammates? Is there a long list of players' whose percentages plummeted after no longer being on Melo's team?

If you were arguing that Steve Nash or Jason Kidd improve the offense of their teammates, I'd find it much more plausible.

Thats because you don't watch the games. Numbers don't tell the whole story. Guys have to hit shots, but passing out of a double team and the ball swinging quickly to the opposite side of the double are creating wide open looks. And we have better shooters on the floor now.

You're just repeating your hypothesis. I was asking for evidence.

No that's not proof enough for Bonn. Post a spreadsheet.

at any point any player that is being guarded by a guy out of position is going to get doubled. .from carmelo down to thadeus young... vs the magic he had jameer on him at one time, and the magic did the right thing.... again, we can show you videos where roy hibbert, carlos boozer, granger, etc all have been doubled before.....

This myth that teams are game planning so much for carmelo that is has made such a monumental impact on this team is hilarious... these highlights were from last year.. so I ask, why didn't the heat double carmelo much and went at him straight up with battier? if you read the scouting report battier has on carmelo(which was actually posted here by another poster) you will see why most teams will not double carmelo.. and guess what.. it is not because he is a fantastic passer.. that is for sure...

The heat didn't double Melo because we had no one on the court that could shoot besides Novak who was suffocated by Wade. They let Melo get his because no one else could score. Many of the players in this video were injured during the Heeat series. If you want to pretend that commiting a double team on a player doesn't open up shots for others on the court, go ahead. You're just exposing yourself as void of any basketball knowledge.

actually you are exposing yourself as a carmelo campaigner , I guess battier and the heat know nothing about basketball, because that isn't the reason why they didn't double carmelo anthony.

If you want to pretend that commiting a double team on a player doesn't open up shots for others on the court, go ahead.

No, again you are creating an argument,I never said you can't get open shots out of a double team, the point is, no team is really doubling carmelo to the point that you guys are exagerating, he is not getting double teamed any more than a roy hibbert, or most players in the league when they find themselves with a mismatch during certain times in a game.. the knicks hitting shots now is not some result of the great carmelo being triple teamed, or other teams changing their game plan in fear of a 43% jump shooter who takes bad shots... I think most agreed that the knicks are shooting much better than expected to continue plus they are getting some open looks as a result of good overall ball movement. even with carmelo on the bench you still see the same ball movement right? but I guess your argument is that carmelo is over there coaching the guys where to pass the ball, right?

The N*yets were going to be the toast of NYC BEFORE THEY HAD EVEN PLAYED A PRE-SEASON GAME, REMEMBER???

Don't feel obliged to root for your team's best player, and possibly the best player the team has had since BK, Ewing or Spree.

18-6 last season? 3-0 start this season? That's just homer dogsheet. Pay no attention. If we were 0-3, THEN 3 GAMES WOULD MEAN SOMETHING MEANINGFUL AND COHERENT.

Stick to the negativity program, folks.

The sky is always falling, someone will always get injured at a key moment in the season, we will always trade away great player potenshull, and Melo will always lose in the first round.

Except when none of that happens, and then something else will go wrong to make us happy and content in our smelly pile of Knick****t.

The glass is half full people, always. Live with it.

As for the Heat last year, they really didn't need to double Melo. Who else did Melo have around him? Novak was playing like trash. Amar'e was both hurt and had his head up his arse. Shump was injured. Smiths head was up his ars. Lin was hurt. Davis was hurt and from what I remember, not playing that great (I could be wrong about that though). Melo could give the ball to nobody and was forced to attempt to rise above and beyond Battier who is a very good defender. The Heat were only going to hurt themselves further more by giving somebody a chance to wake up, by doubling on Melo. That wouldn't have been smart basketball and the Heat are and were a smart team.

As for now, we actually have some talent on our team who can hit open shots. Hopefully we can stay healthy so we can actually take that pressure off Melo because God knows we can't afford this to be a pure 1-1 Melo offense. No great team is purely 1-1 offensively. Not now at least.

tkf wrote:

Allanfan20 wrote:I have been heavy criticizing Melo in the past but he's been doing a very solid job passing out of the double teams this year. That's how you expose the lesser defensive team and Melo is doing a good job at that.

As for the Heat last year, they really didn't need to double Melo. Who else did Melo have around him? Novak was playing like trash. Amar'e was both hurt and had his head up his arse. Shump was injured. Smiths head was up his ars. Lin was hurt. Davis was hurt and from what I remember, not playing that great (I could be wrong about that though). Melo could give the ball to nobody and was forced to attempt to rise above and beyond Battier who is a very good defender. The Heat were only going to hurt themselves further more by giving somebody a chance to wake up, by doubling on Melo. That wouldn't have been smart basketball and the Heat are and were a smart team.

As for now, we actually have some talent on our team who can hit open shots. Hopefully we can stay healthy so we can actually take that pressure off Melo because God knows we can't afford this to be a pure 1-1 Melo offense. No great team is purely 1-1 offensively. Not now at least.

well allan let me ask this, and I am asking because it seems to be a bit of a contradiction here. Last year you say miami didn't double becuase there was no one to pass too.. Ok, lets say that is the case although battier said it wasn't.. but lets go with that..

Now you said this year, we have talent around him that can hit open shots.... well if that is the case, why are teams doubling him? according to what some on this board believe, with great frequency? do they not believe the knicks will keep hitting threes? is carmelo and his 43% shooting just that good they rather give up 3 point shots at a 45% clip? or maybe, just maybe this for once in the knick uninverse has nothing to do with carmelo, or teams game planning for carmelo, or the carmelo force field working it's magic. Maybe just maybe the knicks although shooting a bit above their heads are moving the ball well and finding good open shots as a team, and not as a byproduct of Carmelo the great waving his magic wand?

Teams are gameplanning to not let Melo go off, and they know the threes have got to stop falling eventually.

They haven't yet, but it's really that simple.

Has anyone even bothered to look up the damage the team is doing when Melo is on the bench? I guess not as they must peak-a-boo the games Melo on or off the court.

If anything a stronger case would be made because the Knicks are spread out and hitting shots on a consistent basis it's opening up the game for Melo more so. Kind of like what I used to say when the kids were here while Amar'e was playing well. They made him better, not the other way around, and I'm starting to see more of this with the current team we have for Melo.

Guys no need to set yourself up to be a Melo Martyr....

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

3G4G wrote:This argument is so ridiculous...tkf is spot right on pizznizznoint.

Has anyone even bothered to look up the damage the team is doing when Melo is on the bench? I guess not as they must peak-a-boo the games Melo on or off the court.

If anything a stronger case would be made because the Knicks are spread out and hitting shots on a consistent basis it's opening up the game for Melo more so. Kind of like what I used to say when the kids were here while Amar'e was playing well. They made him better, not the other way around, and I'm starting to see more of this with the current team we have for Melo.

Guys no need to set yourself up to be a Melo Martyr....

Star players like Carmelo Anthony open up the game for role players.

How is it the other way around?

Efficient scorers open up the offense for inefficient players. How could it be the other way around?