Knixkik wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

fishmike wrote:fail. Swap Melo with Iggy, Gallo, Paul Pierce... any good 3 and we are still 3-0

Im glad we are winning games rather than losing but we spanked Phili who doesnt have their franchise player and the Heat who didnt want to be there.

Let just be realistic

Haha you are arguing that you swap Melo with Gallo and you get the same result? The same Heat blowout? Big time fail.

yea.. did you watch the game? Melo was terrible 2nd half and did everything he could to shoot us out of the game. If Knicks dont shoot the lights out and hit like 20 three pointers we get beat.

It was a good game, but if your going to tell me Melo carried us in some way shape or form you obviously didnt watch past the first quarter where he was great.

Teams defend Melo differently than they defend a Gallo. This team gets a lot of open shots because of how teams defend Melo. That would not happen if Gallo was the starting PF. The open looks would not have been there.

Its not fair to use logic when it comes to discussing Melo....That was a low blow Knix...

3G4G wrote:

knickscity wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:it is 3 games.. melo has won before in denver.. regular season that is.. the question remains, is is championship worth, heck is it get out of the first round worth? so far it hasn't been for 8 out of 9 seasons....

do you think 3 games is enough to draw such conclusions, or maybe we should just wait just a tad bit more?....

We should wait longer, but given that this is the best start in franchise history (based on record and scoring margin) i think we can draw the conclusion that this is a pretty good team. Championship worth? Probably not yet, but with the right upgrades along the way, absolutely.

what upgrades,are you referring to?

Ok i'll give you a couple examples. Brewer will likely get replaced at some point (this year or next year) by Shumpert in the starting lineup. Kidd, as long as he stays healthy, could continue to be the starting SG over the next year or 2 by playing 20 mpg because he fits great. Eventually he will need to be replaced. Look at some underappreciated 3/D type players like Chase Budinger (a FA next summer), Jared Dudley, Dorrell Wright (another FA), etc. These guys are big SFs who can shoot and seem to be above average defenders. Those are the type of guys you look at who can improve this team and add a nice punch on both ends of the floor without changing what we are doing. I really think we could eventually have a starting five of Chandler, Anthony, Shumpert, Kidd, and Felton and be in great shape, but will need to continue to improve. I love what Brewer is doing, but when healthy, Shumpert is an as good or better defender and better scorer.

I see where you are going.. you have a point, but honestly, if the knicks can't win it this year, I think you start to look at hitting the reset button and selling off these big contracts while they have some value still..

Or i'll give you another scenario: 2 years from now guys like Afflalo or Matthews become available (guys who can spot up and score and play lockdown D.) Melo, Felton, and Chandler are all still doing the same. Shumpert is in his 4th year, developing into an Iguodala-type player (lockdown defender, good second scoring option, all-star candidate.) A lineup of Chandler, Anthony, Shumpert, Felton, and either Afflalo or Matthews can complete with the best of them. Just thinking outloud.

AGAIN, i SEE your point but i don't agree.. in 2 years we should not be building around carmelo and or felton... espcially if we have no rings..

Why not, especially if those two guys are competing at a solid level on both side of the court.

I could understand your point if they revert back to old ways, but if they played like they do now, why break that up/

So essentially go the Atlanta Hawks route except see it through?

fishmike wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

fishmike wrote:fail. Swap Melo with Iggy, Gallo, Paul Pierce... any good 3 and we are still 3-0

Im glad we are winning games rather than losing but we spanked Phili who doesnt have their franchise player and the Heat who didnt want to be there.

Let just be realistic

Haha you are arguing that you swap Melo with Gallo and you get the same result? The same Heat blowout? Big time fail.

yea.. did you watch the game? Melo was terrible 2nd half and did everything he could to shoot us out of the game. If Knicks dont shoot the lights out and hit like 20 three pointers we get beat.

It was a good game, but if your going to tell me Melo carried us in some way shape or form you obviously didnt watch past the first quarter where he was great.

We won by 20

ChuckBuck wrote:

dk7th wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

tkf wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

fishmike wrote:fail. Swap Melo with Iggy, Gallo, Paul Pierce... any good 3 and we are still 3-0

Im glad we are winning games rather than losing but we spanked Phili who doesnt have their franchise player and the Heat who didnt want to be there.

Let just be realistic

Hey fishmike, I thought Amare was the best player on the Knicks???

Don't you mean the Knicks won without their franchise player?

he sure isn't being used that way....if this team was being built around amare and the pick and roll, i could see your point tho.. but it isn't..

I'm just teasing fm, since he has topless pics of Amare on his car dashboard, and has a tattoo "STAT4LIFE" on his buttocks...JOKING!

In all seriousness, Knixkik is 100% on the money. Melo is not Lebron, but if you surround him with the right pieces, his team can make a deep a run as anyone (see 2009 WCF). Though, we still need a healthy Amare to be an offensive juggernaut in the 2nd unit, to make a legit run at the crown.

sorry but unless melo cuts back on the ill-advised shots-- i counted at least 4 or 5 last night-- it's going to be tough for the knicks to excel beyond the first round. the flipside of the ill-advised shots: passing out of converging doubles. he did it a few times but you just knew he could not sustain that focus and poise-- his habit is to get shot happy and that isn't going to fly.

7-16 but 1-6 from 3 = shot happy. good news is he is finally defending with some heart and he seems to be finishing at the rim better than i remember him ever as a knickerbocker.

here is a key stat: 54.4% true shooting through 3 games. this is below average for a great scorer. it needs to be a whole lot closer to 60% if he is going truly help the team win in the playoffs. PLAYOFFS

As long as Melo's doing it on both ends of the court, it has a trickle down effect on the whole team. Defense wins Championships, I could care less about True Shooting Percentages. Believe the Knicks were +20 in the plus/minus category while Carmelo Anthony was on the floor.

on defense you're preaching to the choir. don't have much patience for the +/- stat to be honest. what's it good for? no doubt the way melo handles himself on defense has a trickle-down effect-- that is one mark of a leader... how he plays defense and makes hustle plays.

but you can't at the same time tell me that bad shot selection doesn't also have a trickle-down effect. eventually poor shots undermine cohesion and focus. we are looking at three games at the beginning of the season, not 3 games against a second round playoff team.

all of our focus on this team should be informed by how well they look as a strong second-round playoff team.

fishmike wrote:fail. Swap Melo with Iggy, Gallo, Paul Pierce... any good 3 and we are still 3-0

Im glad we are winning games rather than losing but we spanked Phili who doesnt have their franchise player and the Heat who didnt want to be there.

Let just be realistic

Wow. This is one of the dumbest posts ever. Gallo and the Nuggies are 0 and 3 while Melo and the Knicks are 3 and 0. You need
to be more realistic and get a clue.

Panos wrote:

fishmike wrote:fail. Swap Melo with Iggy, Gallo, Paul Pierce... any good 3 and we are still 3-0

Im glad we are winning games rather than losing but we spanked Phili who doesnt have their franchise player and the Heat who didnt want to be there.

Let just be realistic

Hey Fishy,
I'm normally with you, your posts are usually a voice of reason around here between the haters and the dreamers, but I have to disagree with you here. This team could not have done what it has over the last 3 games without a dominant scorer. Carmelo has been a huge part of the current run. When he's out, you can see the drop off on the offensive floor. Paul Pierce, maybe. But the other two you mentioned would not have had the offensive juice to give us that firepower.

Melo has become one of the most dangerous scorers in the post area. He draws the defense like few other players can. Teams prepare to defend him, not the other players mentioned above.

Knixkik wrote:

knickscity wrote:

3G4G wrote:

knickscity wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:it is 3 games.. melo has won before in denver.. regular season that is.. the question remains, is is championship worth, heck is it get out of the first round worth? so far it hasn't been for 8 out of 9 seasons....

do you think 3 games is enough to draw such conclusions, or maybe we should just wait just a tad bit more?....

We should wait longer, but given that this is the best start in franchise history (based on record and scoring margin) i think we can draw the conclusion that this is a pretty good team. Championship worth? Probably not yet, but with the right upgrades along the way, absolutely.

what upgrades,are you referring to?

Ok i'll give you a couple examples. Brewer will likely get replaced at some point (this year or next year) by Shumpert in the starting lineup. Kidd, as long as he stays healthy, could continue to be the starting SG over the next year or 2 by playing 20 mpg because he fits great. Eventually he will need to be replaced. Look at some underappreciated 3/D type players like Chase Budinger (a FA next summer), Jared Dudley, Dorrell Wright (another FA), etc. These guys are big SFs who can shoot and seem to be above average defenders. Those are the type of guys you look at who can improve this team and add a nice punch on both ends of the floor without changing what we are doing. I really think we could eventually have a starting five of Chandler, Anthony, Shumpert, Kidd, and Felton and be in great shape, but will need to continue to improve. I love what Brewer is doing, but when healthy, Shumpert is an as good or better defender and better scorer.

I see where you are going.. you have a point, but honestly, if the knicks can't win it this year, I think you start to look at hitting the reset button and selling off these big contracts while they have some value still..

Or i'll give you another scenario: 2 years from now guys like Afflalo or Matthews become available (guys who can spot up and score and play lockdown D.) Melo, Felton, and Chandler are all still doing the same. Shumpert is in his 4th year, developing into an Iguodala-type player (lockdown defender, good second scoring option, all-star candidate.) A lineup of Chandler, Anthony, Shumpert, Felton, and either Afflalo or Matthews can complete with the best of them. Just thinking outloud.

AGAIN, i SEE your point but i don't agree.. in 2 years we should not be building around carmelo and or felton... espcially if we have no rings..

Why not, especially if those two guys are competing at a solid level on both side of the court.

I could understand your point if they revert back to old ways, but if they played like they do now, why break that up/

So essentially go the Atlanta Hawks route except see it through?

You lost me.

Yeah i'm not exactly sure what the Atlanta Hawks route is.

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

dk7th wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

tkf wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

fishmike wrote:fail. Swap Melo with Iggy, Gallo, Paul Pierce... any good 3 and we are still 3-0

Im glad we are winning games rather than losing but we spanked Phili who doesnt have their franchise player and the Heat who didnt want to be there.

Let just be realistic

Hey fishmike, I thought Amare was the best player on the Knicks???

Don't you mean the Knicks won without their franchise player?

he sure isn't being used that way....if this team was being built around amare and the pick and roll, i could see your point tho.. but it isn't..

I'm just teasing fm, since he has topless pics of Amare on his car dashboard, and has a tattoo "STAT4LIFE" on his buttocks...JOKING!

In all seriousness, Knixkik is 100% on the money. Melo is not Lebron, but if you surround him with the right pieces, his team can make a deep a run as anyone (see 2009 WCF). Though, we still need a healthy Amare to be an offensive juggernaut in the 2nd unit, to make a legit run at the crown.

sorry but unless melo cuts back on the ill-advised shots-- i counted at least 4 or 5 last night-- it's going to be tough for the knicks to excel beyond the first round. the flipside of the ill-advised shots: passing out of converging doubles. he did it a few times but you just knew he could not sustain that focus and poise-- his habit is to get shot happy and that isn't going to fly.

7-16 but 1-6 from 3 = shot happy. good news is he is finally defending with some heart and he seems to be finishing at the rim better than i remember him ever as a knickerbocker.

here is a key stat: 54.4% true shooting through 3 games. this is below average for a great scorer. it needs to be a whole lot closer to 60% if he is going truly help the team win in the playoffs. PLAYOFFS

As long as Melo's doing it on both ends of the court, it has a trickle down effect on the whole team. Defense wins Championships, I could care less about True Shooting Percentages. Believe the Knicks were +20 in the plus/minus category while Carmelo Anthony was on the floor.

on defense you're preaching to the choir. don't have much patience for the +/- stat to be honest. what's it good for? no doubt the way melo handles himself on defense has a trickle-down effect-- that is one mark of a leader... how he plays defense and makes hustle plays.

but you can't at the same time tell me that bad shot selection doesn't also have a trickle-down effect. eventually poor shots undermine cohesion and focus. we are looking at three games at the beginning of the season, not 3 games against a second round playoff team.

all of our focus on this team should be informed by how well they look as a strong second-round playoff team.

The attention Melo draws had elevated our 3pt shooting for all the players around him. So you take that true shooting % of Melo and then look at the TS of all the players that he has helped get easier shots by causing the ripple effect in the defense.

yeah i have heard this theory about how melo's "presence" on the court has a direct bearing on his teammates' raising their fg% and i am not buying it. the reason is that there is a direct relationship between passing out of doubles to finding the open man to shoot in rhythm and guess what melo has never been very good at that. far from it. we see him forcing a few shots a game whether a rushed 3-pointer or forcing a shot over a double team or jab-stepping to nowhere.

i'd say that the true shooting percentage is a more a "personal" statistic that simply indicates individual efficiency with an indirect or secondary effect on overall team play. when high it tends to help a team and when average or low it tends to hurt the team.

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

dk7th wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

tkf wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

fishmike wrote:fail. Swap Melo with Iggy, Gallo, Paul Pierce... any good 3 and we are still 3-0

Im glad we are winning games rather than losing but we spanked Phili who doesnt have their franchise player and the Heat who didnt want to be there.

Let just be realistic

Hey fishmike, I thought Amare was the best player on the Knicks???

Don't you mean the Knicks won without their franchise player?

he sure isn't being used that way....if this team was being built around amare and the pick and roll, i could see your point tho.. but it isn't..

I'm just teasing fm, since he has topless pics of Amare on his car dashboard, and has a tattoo "STAT4LIFE" on his buttocks...JOKING!

In all seriousness, Knixkik is 100% on the money. Melo is not Lebron, but if you surround him with the right pieces, his team can make a deep a run as anyone (see 2009 WCF). Though, we still need a healthy Amare to be an offensive juggernaut in the 2nd unit, to make a legit run at the crown.

sorry but unless melo cuts back on the ill-advised shots-- i counted at least 4 or 5 last night-- it's going to be tough for the knicks to excel beyond the first round. the flipside of the ill-advised shots: passing out of converging doubles. he did it a few times but you just knew he could not sustain that focus and poise-- his habit is to get shot happy and that isn't going to fly.

7-16 but 1-6 from 3 = shot happy. good news is he is finally defending with some heart and he seems to be finishing at the rim better than i remember him ever as a knickerbocker.

here is a key stat: 54.4% true shooting through 3 games. this is below average for a great scorer. it needs to be a whole lot closer to 60% if he is going truly help the team win in the playoffs. PLAYOFFS

As long as Melo's doing it on both ends of the court, it has a trickle down effect on the whole team. Defense wins Championships, I could care less about True Shooting Percentages. Believe the Knicks were +20 in the plus/minus category while Carmelo Anthony was on the floor.

on defense you're preaching to the choir. don't have much patience for the +/- stat to be honest. what's it good for? no doubt the way melo handles himself on defense has a trickle-down effect-- that is one mark of a leader... how he plays defense and makes hustle plays.

but you can't at the same time tell me that bad shot selection doesn't also have a trickle-down effect. eventually poor shots undermine cohesion and focus. we are looking at three games at the beginning of the season, not 3 games against a second round playoff team.

all of our focus on this team should be informed by how well they look as a strong second-round playoff team.

The attention Melo draws had elevated our 3pt shooting for all the players around him. So you take that true shooting % of Melo and then look at the TS of all the players that he has helped get easier shots by causing the ripple effect in the defense.

yeah i have heard this theory about how melo's "presence" on the court has a direct bearing on his teammates' raising their fg% and i am not buying it. the reason is that there is a direct relationship between passing out of doubles to finding the open man to shoot in rhythm and guess what melo has never been very good at that. far from it. we see him forcing a few shots a game whether a rushed 3-pointer or forcing a shot over a double team or jab-stepping to nowhere.

i'd say that the true shooting percentage is a more a "personal" statistic that simply indicates individual efficiency with an indirect or secondary effect on overall team play. when high it tends to help a team and when average or low it tends to hurt the team.

I may have overstated him raising guys TS%. Wasn't really what I meant. What he really does is get guys a lot more open looks from 3 then they would if he was not in the game. If you knock down those 3s like we have been doing we get the results we have been getting for the last 20+games. If you don't then you get the results we had when we had Fields, Douglas and Bibby in our backcourt missing open shot after open shot after open shot.

newyorknewyork wrote:I don't get the logic that Melo needs to win a championship or we need to rebuild when the guys we traded for him have limited playoff results and the draft picks you want during the rebuilding process have 0 playoff results.

The plan you guys want to follow is not a guranteed championship winner. Look at Denver when they traded Dice for Camby and a lotto pick landing Nene and Skeet. Then landing Melo the following yr making that 3 lotto picks in 2yrs. Then witht there huge cap space signing Kenyon Martin the highest rated free agent of that class. Now according to some of you guys logic Denver threw away 9yrs figuring out that Melo wasn't a franchise championship winning player. Following the same exact plan that you guys want to execute.

Melo needs to win a championship or bust coming from an organization that won its first playoff game in 13yrs last yr.

LET me ask you.. what would be the reason holding onto a soon to be 30 year old carmelo( by that time) who will be making 20+ million a year? Other than hoping and wishing he becomes the star player you envision after 10 years in the league, why hold onto him at that price with what he offers?

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

Knixkik wrote:There has been a lot of questions about Melo's status as a star, can we build around him, etc. For those who like Melo, this is why. He doesn't need to play with other star players. All he needs is a bunch of shooters and defenders around him who can play to his strengths and help cover his weaknesses. If everyone on the floor, with the exception of Chandler (the center position) is a passable to great shooter and above average to great defender, you can build a championship team with him as your best player. Felton, Kidd, Brewer have all proven to be passable outside shooters, make sound decisions, pass well, defend well, and give Melo space to operate. Chandler is the presence down low who makes it easier to play smaller and have Melo at PF without sacrificing any size. Knicks should continue to look where to add solid role players who can shoot and defend, and if they can do that we can go very far with this formula.

I love the way the team and Melo are playing but your formula could apply to a lot of max contract players.

If EVERYONE on the floor is a passable to great shooter and above average to great defenders, you can build a championship team with __________________ as your best player. Love the positivity. But just sayin'.

And it's not like we got WestBrook or Rondo at point, James Harden or Jason Terry off the bench as a sixth, Andre Iguodala or Luol Deng as a wing defender.

Brewer, JR Smith and Felton are the guys people made fun of before the season started along with 35 year old euro rookie, Old Kidd, Old KT, Old Camby. This isn't some multiple all star lineup we put together.

We got a lot of solid pros that support our star and guess what, it looks like it could be special.