Mray20 wrote:Knicks are the second best team in the east at least on paper , and from what I saw with Woody going 18-6 despite all the injuries I believe they will win the atlantic and be the number 2 seed.

that is not true, the celtics and possibly the nets(some may argue) on paper are better.... for sure the celtics moreso than the nets who are pretty close...

nixluva wrote:Knick fans still can't get past the loser mentality. Doom and Gloom is still the order of the day. We've got to look at the team as it is today and not as they used to be. This team is stronger everywhere. Woody as able to get great results with a flawed team last year, why be pessimistic when he has a FAR better team now? IMO Boston had a hard time beating the broke down and out of sync Knicks, but this is a new team. I think the Knicks will surpass them this time. We won't be seeing a 1st rd exit this year.

it is a new team that was put together the same way that led to 12 years of losing... why should anyone not be a bit skeptical..

tkf wrote:

Mray20 wrote:Knicks are the second best team in the east at least on paper , and from what I saw with Woody going 18-6 despite all the injuries I believe they will win the atlantic and be the number 2 seed.

that is not true, the celtics and possibly the nets(some may argue) on paper are better.... for sure the celtics moreso than the nets who are pretty close...

I learned a long time ago when the BUlls broke the hearts of many to respect the conquering foe than lament in the loss.

If I spend two plus hours watching a game and we lose a close game it hurts but one can't spend 2 plus hours and not take away something but anger and someone to blame. Thus, the "aw shucks" attitude is to respect the efforts and talent of others and perhaps it helps to understand the Knicks shortcomings objectively.

I know thats too much noice for some to digetst but I have watched this team for long time and to not apprecite the greatness that was jordan, and now Lebron (playoffs) would be a shame. I don't have to like them, but the respect is there.

Lets see how injuries play out and how the competition stacks up.

This team needs of course to seet itself 4th or higher. It needs to finish healthy and strong. To finish injured and weak and run into a team that went "18-6" to get in the playoffs and is healthy and surging is a recipe for disapppointment. It sucks but it happens.

Sometimes the other team just has it all going their way and thats all there is to it.

Thats my take. SOme won't agree but im done.

And yeah, I get league pass and you know at 10pm if the lakers are playing the Wolves, im tuning in to see Nash vs Rubio and how Dwight is doing. N*ts playing the Clippers im watching Griff and CP3 take on Deron, JJ and others.

Nalod wrote:

tkf wrote:

Mray20 wrote:Knicks are the second best team in the east at least on paper , and from what I saw with Woody going 18-6 despite all the injuries I believe they will win the atlantic and be the number 2 seed.

that is not true, the celtics and possibly the nets(some may argue) on paper are better.... for sure the celtics moreso than the nets who are pretty close...

I learned a long time ago when the BUlls broke the hearts of many to respect the conquering foe than lament in the loss.

If I spend two plus hours watching a game and we lose a close game it hurts but one can't spend 2 plus hours and not take away something but anger and someone to blame. Thus, the "aw shucks" attitude is to respect the efforts and talent of others and perhaps it helps to understand the Knicks shortcomings objectively.

I know thats too much noice for some to digetst but I have watched this team for long time and to not apprecite the greatness that was jordan, and now Lebron (playoffs) would be a shame. I don't have to like them, but the respect is there.

Lets see how injuries play out and how the competition stacks up.

This team needs of course to seet itself 4th or higher. It needs to finish healthy and strong. To finish injured and weak and run into a team that went "18-6" to get in the playoffs and is healthy and surging is a recipe for disapppointment. It sucks but it happens.

Sometimes the other team just has it all going their way and thats all there is to it.

Thats my take. SOme won't agree but im done.

And yeah, I get league pass and you know at 10pm if the lakers are playing the Wolves, im tuning in to see Nash vs Rubio and how Dwight is doing. N*ts playing the Clippers im watching Griff and CP3 take on Deron, JJ and others.

yea, i was a harsh lebron critic, moreso for his antics but I respect the talent, the same with pierce and garnett and now rondo... how can you not?

as far as the league pass.. i was one of the first customers to sign up with direct tv when it came out in the 90's.. LOL... I love staying up for the west coast games.. you can bet your dollar that I will be watching nash for sure, as well as the nuggets and rockets.. I also enjoy watching the clippers now with paul... there will be some interesting story lines this year for sure...

Nalod wrote:The only hold overs players I don't like are KG and Pierce.

I think "Real fans" (LOL) watch other teams and don't think the sun rises and falls with the knicks. I loved watching MDA and the SSOL Suns a few years back and they were fun to watch. When Donnie and MDA came to NY I understood the vision. When Dolan took a **** in the room and killed I also understood the stench that is he and the problem with being a knick fan. Thus, I don't get upset anymore. Knicks either entertain me with close games or I start to tune it off. Hate to drag in the 3rd season of MDA pre Melo trade but the games were close and the team was fun to watch. Not championship quality and certainly Melo is a better player than we gave up but I enjoyed that team better than any incarnation since.

I dont recall anybody saying that they would stop watching if things go bad. hell from 200-2010 we were a joke and we all still remained loyal so i dont know what you are talking about lol

gunsnewing wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:this team is built to challenge the Heat. We should not meet them until the conf finals. Deep veteran team that should win 55 games.

FISH, i THINk everyone looks over boston, they added jason terry who is a hell of a player, they added courtney lee, they will have bradley back.. I think the celts could beat the heat honestly.. I think we should worry about them as well...

I aint overlookin boston that for sure! People think because they lost Ray Allen they took a step back when they actually improved with terry and lee. and besides Allen barely played last year as he was always hurt. They had no size last year and added some defensive minded young bigs and Bradley will only get better year 2

Boston will be a load this year. Picking up Sullinger and Fab Melo will help a lot going up against the Knicks and Heat. They are good to go this year, Rondo will dominate the east.

as far as the sidebar debate..I don't think Boston improved that much and I can't believe people actually consider NJ a serious contender, lol. The team to watch for is Philly.

VCoug wrote:

nixluva wrote:

VCoug wrote:I'll sigh, shake my head, and say I told you so while I hope and pray that Dolan agrees to blow up the team in a couple of years. Other people will stop comparing us to the 2008 Celtics and will say that we're more like the 1997 Bulls or the Showtime Lakers instead.

Why should we think, as you believe, that this team is likely to have a 1st rd debacle this year?

What about this roster makes this team more likely to have a major letdown and go out in the 1st rd?

This team has the depth and size to matchup with any team in the league, why are some still doubting this team should be one of the top seeds in the East?

Where are the holes in this roster that we should be so fearful of?

No team is perfect but this team seems to be as well put together as any other top team. From everything i'm seeing this team is built to defend at a high level and to play a more mistake free style that will match well with an aggressive defense. I'm seeing a team that is made for a long playoff run. IMO the Heat, Celtics and Knicks are the top 3 teams in the East. My guess is Knicks finish 2nd or 3rd, no worse.

A. Our back court sucks. I'm not sure Felton is one of the 20 best point guards in the league and he's starting for us. Jason Kidd is completely washed up. Shumpert and Brewer are hurt and Shumpert's injury usually takes two years to recover from.

B. Novak is our only shooter. When we run a pick and roll teams will double the roller and dare whoever has the ball to shoot a long jumper. And when teams go to double Melo or Amare there is no one who can make the other team pay.

C. Amare has been battling a back injury for a year and a half now. There's at least a 50/50 chance that he will never be close to the same player he was in 2010/11. Last season was the worst of his career and his back was so bad he had trouble even dunking the ball on multiple occasions. Back injuries can be very trick and very difficult to recover from and there is a long list of players that never have.

D. There's no evidence that the Melo/Amare/Tyson frontcourt will work. When Melo first got here there were flashes with him and Amare that they could both possibly play effectively together. There was absolutely no evidence that the three of them can play well together. Until I see it on the court I won't believe the three of them can play effective basketball together.

E. We were stomped each of the last two years in the first round. We can throw out two years ago since our team looks nothing like that anymore, but last season was a ****ing embarrassment. We didn't look like we belonged on the same court as Miami and the only reason we won a game was because they took their foot of the gas AND Wade played awful in game 4. I don't believe that adding a host of mediocre players and Marcus Camby can fix that.

F. Tyson, Amare, Camby, and Shumpert are all injury prone and MDA might have ruined Amare's career two years ago. Also, Kidd, Thomas, and Wallace are all very old and it's quite possible they can't make it through a full season. I don't have faith that we will be reasonably healthy at the end of the season.

G. As far as I'm concerned Miami, Boston and a healthy Chicago team are all better than us. And Brooklyn and Philly are better than they were last year while Indy is still a good team. It's not out of the realm of possibility that we could finish as low as 6 or 7 in the conference.

H. I'm not convinced that Woodson is the right coach for the team and he certainly isn't a better option that Phil Jackson. I know we finished the year 18-6 but I think that had more to do with MDA leaving than Woodson being promoted and Amare was hurt for most of that run which allowed us to balance our lineups better

damn this post makes me look like MR sunshine.... LOL..

you do have a lot of valid points tho..

VCoug wrote:

nixluva wrote:VCoug, i'm glad you decided to go into so much detail about what you don't like.

VCoug wrote:A. Our back court sucks. I'm not sure Felton is one of the 20 best point guards in the league and he's starting for us. Jason Kidd is completely washed up. Shumpert and Brewer are hurt and Shumpert's injury usually takes two years to recover from.

Explain why it is that you have to have a PG that is top 20 PG in the league? You mean like Derek Fisher or Kerr? I understand your general point about having a quality PG, but Felton when in shape is not a bad PG. Jason Kidd is also not a bad PG even at this age. Brewer should be healthy by the time we really need him and anything Shump gives us this year is gonna be a plus.
The style of play this team will have will no longer be PG centric.

I didn't say we needed a top 20 PG that was just one point about our backcourt. And sure, Fisher and Kerr weren't great points but the played next to Jordan and Kobe which goes to my overall point: that our backcourt sucks and, off the top of my head, might be one of the 5 worst backcourts in the league. If you look at the top 4 seeds from each conference last season our guards are clearly inferior to everyone else's except for, maybe, Indy.

nixluva wrote:

VCoug wrote:B. Novak is our only shooter. When we run a pick and roll teams will double the roller and dare whoever has the ball to shoot a long jumper. And when teams go to double Melo or Amare there is no one who can make the other team pay.

This is a bit of an exaggeration. Yes we don't have a lot of dangerous 3pt shooters but Novak is the best pure shooter, but not the only shooter teams have to worry about. The main thing is that we shouldn't be relying on a lot of outside shooting. You can create offense with player movement that will lead to open shots and high % shots at the basket. This team isn't an offensive juggernaut and doesn't have to be. It'd built to DEFEND.

I'm not saying we need to rely on outside shooting but we need to be able to make other teams pay when they double Melo and Amare Right now we really can't and I don't know how much playing time Novak will get since he'll have to share minutes with Amare, Melo and possible JR, Camby, and Wallace. It's the same reason the Melo/Iverson teams didn't work.

nixluva wrote:

VCoug wrote:C. Amare has been battling a back injury for a year and a half now. There's at least a 50/50 chance that he will never be close to the same player he was in 2010/11. Last season was the worst of his career and his back was so bad he had trouble even dunking the ball on multiple occasions. Back injuries can be very trick and very difficult to recover from and there is a long list of players that never have.

Amar'e got the right treatment regimen and I think he'll be much better at dealing with it. So long as the disk isn't bulging and making contact with nerves then he should be fine. If he has a flair up then he'll have another Epidural treatment and he'll be able to play with very little pain as he did last year. It's a very simple matter at this point. Right now he's fine so...

We don't know that he's fine, we do know that he played most of last the last year and a half without getting the proper treatment for his back. And, his back was so bad last year that he was getting blocked by the rim throughout the entire season. It's very possible that this injury will affect him the rest of his career.

nixluva wrote:

VCoug wrote:D. There's no evidence that the Melo/Amare/Tyson frontcourt will work. When Melo first got here there were flashes with him and Amare that they could both possibly play effectively together. There was absolutely no evidence that the three of them can play well together. Until I see it on the court I won't believe the three of them can play effective basketball together.

MOST of the time that these guys have actually been able to play together they haven't had a lot of good PG play. This is likely to be the 1st time they'll have a full season playing together with good PG's from start to finish.

Up above you said we don't need good point guards because other teams have won championships without them. Now you're saying we do have good point guards and they're going to make our mess of a front court work offensively. Felton wasn't very good running a point guard-centric offense under MDA and I expect him to play very similarly to his time in Portland and Charlotte. Personally, I don't see how that will be particularly helpful to us.

nixluva wrote:

VCoug wrote:E. We were stomped each of the last two years in the first round. We can throw out two years ago since our team looks nothing like that anymore, but last season was a ****ing embarrassment. We didn't look like we belonged on the same court as Miami and the only reason we won a game was because they took their foot of the gas AND Wade played awful in game 4. I don't believe that adding a host of mediocre players and Marcus Camby can fix that.

Again this is partly a function of not having quality PG's. You may not like Felton and Kidd but they are quality PG's that should be able to move the offense.

Felton isn't even one of the top 20 point guards in the league and Kidd is completely washed up.

nixluva wrote:

VCoug wrote:F. Tyson, Amare, Camby, and Shumpert are all injury prone and MDA might have ruined Amare's career two years ago. Also, Kidd, Thomas, and Wallace are all very old and it's quite possible they can't make it through a full season. I don't have faith that we will be reasonably healthy at the end of the season.

This is really just conjecture on your part since NO ONE can predict injury. Let's just assume some level of injury, but also acknowledge that this team has a lot of quality depth to be able to handle that. We're in a better situation than the Bulls who if they lose one guy namely D Rose, they're done.

Injuries can happen to anyone but they tend to happen more often to certain players than others. We have a lot of those certain players on our team.

nixluva wrote:

VCoug wrote:G. As far as I'm concerned Miami, Boston and a healthy Chicago team are all better than us. And Brooklyn and Philly are better than they were last year while Indy is still a good team. It's not out of the realm of possibility that we could finish as low as 6 or 7 in the conference.

We don't know how good Boston, Chicago, Brooklyn or Philly really are but this Knicks team is right dead square in the middle of the best teams in the league. I'd love to see your in depth analysis as to why those teams should be clearly better than NY.

We don't know how good those teams are but we definitely know the Knicks are dead square in the middle of the best teams in the league? I'd love to see your in depth analysis as to why our team should be clearly better than those other teams.

nixluva wrote:

VCoug wrote:H. I'm not convinced that Woodson is the right coach for the team and he certainly isn't a better option that Phil Jackson. I know we finished the year 18-6 but I think that had more to do with MDA leaving than Woodson being promoted and Amare was hurt for most of that run which allowed us to balance our lineups better.

I'm not basing my judgment on Woodson on last year as much as how he's conducted himself since the end of the season. He's shown that he's fully committed to getting this right. He didn't allow any time for slippage to come in. He was on top of his players development from day one and has taken steps to ensure that his players all get better. He gave them help with training, skills development and even the mental approach they should take to the game. You can't knock anything he's done since the season ended.

I don't care what he did or didn't do this offseason, he wasn't exactly impressive as coach of the Hawks and until he shows otherwise his gameplanning should be under scrutiny.

nixluva wrote:This team did come together at the end of the year under Woody. That has continued into this season. I think they brought in players that are pros and understand what winning is all about. Woody has a great group of guys. The added players all understand the game and are known to be good defenders. That will lead to an even better defensive team than last year. If that's the case I don't see how any of the things you suggest will be a reason this team won't be a top tier team. Under Woody this team was top 5 defensively and now they have even more size and depth and quality defenders. Do they get worse or better defensively?

We had a great defensive team last year also, even under MDA. Defense wasn't the problem that needed to be fixed. Our offense is what sucked last year and I don't see that we've taken any steps to address that. For all the talk about defense wins championships you also need to be able to score points effectively. If you look at the best teams in the league and at the teams that have won championships they all have good defense AND good offense. And again, did they come together under Woodson or because MDA wasn't there? It's not like he was well liked by his players in Atlanta.

I am glad you mentioned that.. it was noted by a lot of analyst that even under dantoni the knicks defense was pretty darn good... it wasn't the defense that sucked, it was that our offense often stalled..

As far as woodson, i will give him a chance, but I don't like the notion that he is the missing piece that guys like carmelo and amare have been missing their whole careers.. woodson has had his problems in Atlanta, I saw that first hand as a season ticket holder... the players here quit on him....

fishmike wrote:epic failure

depends on who we face. To me, there is no shame if you lose to say, Miami.

As long as it's competitive and goes the whole 7games, I would not call it a failure.

It would be a failure IF we were eliminated by anyone else imo. Especially if we get eliminated by Boston. We must beat on Boston every chance we get.