tkf wrote:

3G4G wrote:I love how players like Lin/Gallo/Chandler at 23-24yrs of age are basically completely summed up for the rest of their careers, therefore no reason to believe they could be better...

but

A broken down power forward can reinvent his game at 30yrs of age

and

A stubborn 3/4 player who never shown signs of sacrifice is going to make all the TEAM sacrifices to Take Us Home

and

Multiple 40yr olds are going to turn back the clock simultaneously whether they get rotation minutes or not

you beat me to it... but what I also find interesting is that, nupe said " how is it hate if he is telling the truth".. well that is pretty much what we are saying.. none of us said this team was bad, or that carmelo was a scrub..

we pretty much have been saying.. carmelo is not as good as being advertised around here( when being compared to other elite players), and the knicks may not be as good as some would like to think, although we feel they have the potential to have a good year....

A bunch of Tap Dance posting is what you get from the other side. Sammy Davis and Fred Astaire have nothing on them at all...

Sha Boing Boing

Scattlely Doo Doo

Cha Kaaa Cha Kaaa

Dweee Dweeeeeeee

Doobity Whop Baaa Baaaaaaa

NUPE wrote:

3G4G wrote:I love how players like Lin/Gallo/Chandler at 23-24yrs of age are basically completely summed up for the rest of their careers, therefore no reason to believe they could be better...

but

A broken down power forward can reinvent his game at 30yrs of age

and

A stubborn 3/4 player who never shown signs of sacrifice is going to make all the TEAM sacrifices to Take Us Home

and

Multiple 40yr olds are going to turn back the clock simultaneously whether they get rotation minutes or not

Well the thing here is you are posting in generalities.

Amar'e is not broken down and put up 18 and 8 last year and is in camp and healthy as of right now.

Your description of Melo is merely your opinion rather than fact.

The older players are not expected to turn back any clocks and are not starting.

There is no serious discussion to be had to you because all your post are warped and skewed and endeavor to put a negative spin on all players.

Meanwhile, you are not even disagreeing with my description / summation of all these young players - traded for melo - who still to this day are not dominant or consistent.

Both Gallo and Chandler put up 14/5 so mentioning Amar'e's 18/8 as if it's golden means nothing. They both did this in a season they weren't healthy either. So I'd imagine if they came back the following year healthy then reasonable to say they improve. Gallo improved putting up better numbers in Denver once again in a non healthy season.

3G4G wrote:

NUPE wrote:

3G4G wrote:I love how players like Lin/Gallo/Chandler at 23-24yrs of age are basically completely summed up for the rest of their careers, therefore no reason to believe they could be better...

but

A broken down power forward can reinvent his game at 30yrs of age

and

A stubborn 3/4 player who never shown signs of sacrifice is going to make all the TEAM sacrifices to Take Us Home

and

Multiple 40yr olds are going to turn back the clock simultaneously whether they get rotation minutes or not

Well the thing here is you are posting in generalities.

Amar'e is not broken down and put up 18 and 8 last year and is in camp and healthy as of right now.

Your description of Melo is merely your opinion rather than fact.

The older players are not expected to turn back any clocks and are not starting.

There is no serious discussion to be had to you because all your post are warped and skewed and endeavor to put a negative spin on all players.

Meanwhile, you are not even disagreeing with my description / summation of all these young players - traded for melo - who still to this day are not dominant or consistent.

Both Gallo and Chandler put up 14/5 so mentioning Aamr'e's 18/8 as if it's golden means nothing. They both did this in a season they weren't healthy either. So I'd imagine if they came back the following year healthy then reasonable to say they improve. Gallo improved putting up better numbers in Denver once again in a non healthy season.

The difference is 14/5 are around their ceilings throughout their careers. We all know or should know that Amar'e ceiling is beyond 18 & 8. As a Knick, Amar'e numbers through two seasons are are about 22 ppg and 9 boards.

Also, for accuracy, Wilson Chandler has averaged close to 11 ppg as a Nugget. Gallo has averaged around 14.5 ppg on like 41% fg% as a Nugget. In the most recent playoffs, Gallo put up 13 ppg on 36% fg%. They are clearly up and coming world beaters... SMH!

tkf wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

tkf wrote:BRIGGS, i DON't think anyone doubts this team will be good... we were headed this way before any of the big trades.. the key is we need to be championship good, because after this year, we may be looking at some tough times, aging roster, very few picks, no flexibility... not much youth...... but hey, as you said, at least this year we know we will put a good product on the floor, or at least we should...

tfk--this team has a 2 year window of opportunity and the best year might just be this year. It will become next to impossible to build a legit team in year 3 due to the new CBA. We will be hogtied with the new salary cap rules--player movement will be minimal at best. Its important for the Knicks that Shumpert comes back healthy and we score in the draft next year. We wont be able to dip into mid level exceptions etc.. and the guys we have now--essentially Kid and Camby IMHO will BOTH be shot in year 3 taking up 7+mm. We also have to hope Amare's body can take 2 more full yeasr + playoffs and Im scared that it might now(which would be a colossal disaster) So lets enjoy the Knicks now and see if they can really play well--this might be the best basketball team they have for the next 4-6 years

briggs,lets say the knicks make it to the second round... ok, so where do we go from here if you feel we have such a small window and this may be our best year? we will be back to the isiah days of knick basketball...I think we could have gotten to this point and protected our assets so that we can have an extended window and a real progression at building a winner...

+1 thats been my biggest gripe with this team since we struck out on Lebron

NUPE wrote:

tkf wrote:

nupe, hey, I am trying to reach some middle ground here... I mean you do realize that gallo and chandler were just 22 and 23 years old? they were playing winning basketball.. you are holding them, to such high standards but you are making a ton of excuses for melo who is already going into his 10th season... why such high hopes for melo making such drastic changes, but so quick to give up on kids who were not only improving, but winning? just asking...

The thing is, you do not disagree with my summation of the players. Your response is that they are or were young. There are plenty of young and talented players that do not become dominant or consistent. Typically, in the NBA, young players that become dominant show some form of consistency within their first three years in the NBA. The real great players show consistent mid to high-end play their first year in the league. As much as I like Gallo, he still to this day is not consistent in any facet of basketball. Hill never showed anything. Chandler while good was never dominant.

Lee has become a lot better but I will still take Amar'e over Lee.

As for Lin, he was not here pre-melo so I am not lumping him in with the pre-melo players we are discussing.

well I agree that our young guys were not dominant, but I think the point was that they were very good, with allstar potential.. at least gallo for sure..

for some of us, we were looking at adding elite pieces around that.. we added amare, not quite elite, but somewhat close and we had picks and cap room to really add that key piece to what we had...

I think that is what is being missed....the progression and adding to the talent we had.. we had the picks, cap room and talent to put together a good team for a long run...

my problem is that we traded so much in for a player in melo that is not elite or dominant.... yes, we dissagree here and that is understandable...

tkf wrote:

NUPE wrote:

tkf wrote:

nupe, hey, I am trying to reach some middle ground here... I mean you do realize that gallo and chandler were just 22 and 23 years old? they were playing winning basketball.. you are holding them, to such high standards but you are making a ton of excuses for melo who is already going into his 10th season... why such high hopes for melo making such drastic changes, but so quick to give up on kids who were not only improving, but winning? just asking...

The thing is, you do not disagree with my summation of the players. Your response is that they are or were young. There are plenty of young and talented players that do not become dominant or consistent. Typically, in the NBA, young players that become dominant show some form of consistency within their first three years in the NBA. The real great players show consistent mid to high-end play their first year in the league. As much as I like Gallo, he still to this day is not consistent in any facet of basketball. Hill never showed anything. Chandler while good was never dominant.

Lee has become a lot better but I will still take Amar'e over Lee.

As for Lin, he was not here pre-melo so I am not lumping him in with the pre-melo players we are discussing.

well I agree that our young guys were not dominant, but I think the point was that they were very good, with allstar potential.. at least gallo for sure..

for some of us, we were looking at adding elite pieces around that.. we added amare, not quite elite, but somewhat close and we had picks and cap room to really add that key piece to what we had...

I think that is what is being missed....the progression and adding to the talent we had.. we had the picks, cap room and talent to put together a good team for a long run...

my problem is that we traded so much in for a player in melo that is not elite or dominant.... yes, we dissagree here and that is understandable...

I don't see the rebuilding purgatory after the window closes. I see retooling and competitive basketball though most likely not championship asperations unless everything breaks our way with Amare.

OasisBU wrote:I agree this team will be good and fun to watch. Hopefully it's not another roller coaster or injury filled season.

I don't think we are championship contenders though. We can be the 4-5 seed but I don't see us beating the Heat or the Lakers just yet. Maybe we can I Melo and Stat learn to play together and Stat returns to his old form. That's a lot of ifs combined with the new faces on the team.

I love the Knicks and I love this board, but sometimes I think people tend to overrate the ability of our team. I certainly hope we can contend but I think the other teams are still on a different level, hopefully I am wrong.

I think the Knicks are on a level that they will be able to compete very strongly from game to game and win a lot of them. One big problem this team will have is team speed--I think its a slow team--more of a halfcourt team--so well have to see. NBA rule changes have favored speed--see Oklahoma and Miami.

BRIGGS wrote:

OasisBU wrote:I agree this team will be good and fun to watch. Hopefully it's not another roller coaster or injury filled season.

I don't think we are championship contenders though. We can be the 4-5 seed but I don't see us beating the Heat or the Lakers just yet. Maybe we can I Melo and Stat learn to play together and Stat returns to his old form. That's a lot of ifs combined with the new faces on the team.

I love the Knicks and I love this board, but sometimes I think people tend to overrate the ability of our team. I certainly hope we can contend but I think the other teams are still on a different level, hopefully I am wrong.

I think the Knicks are on a level that they will be able to compete very strongly from game to game and win a lot of them. One big problem this team will have is team speed--I think its a slow team--more of a halfcourt team--so well have to see. NBA rule changes have favored speed--see Oklahoma and Miami.

You can combat the team speed thing with solid defense and mistake free offense. ie the Detroit Pistons with Billups, Rip, Sheed, PRince etc. We have about as much team speed as they did. We've got a mix of fast players like Felton, Shump, JR, Brewer and by the way Melo, STAT and Tyson aren't slow, but mainly we will be wanting to keep the tempo at a controlled pace. Run off steals and missed baskets, but slow it down and play smart in the halfcourt.

I think too many of you guys are underestimating this team. Last year when this team finally got its act together they went 18-6 for a reason. They could defend at a high level. Now this team has even MORE legit defenders and size. This team has better PG's as well. This team is made to compete with the top teams in the league now. The roster is 2 or 3 deep everywhere.

Guys want to be naysayers like they have been in the past cuz it's the easy thing to do. Only thing is that this time the Knicks haven't made mistakes. They haven't left huge holes in the roster or have to depend on young scrubs who don't have any experience. We know what these players bring to the table. Just cuz they're older doesn't mean they can't play at a high level. They just can't do it for 30 minutes a night.

VCoug wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:This team has a 2 yr window to win it all. But the rebuilding process after is being a bit exaggerated. Felton, Shump, Melo, Amare, Tyson, Jr Smith, Novak are all under 30. Melo, Amare, Tyson, Kidd, Camby all come off the books. Melo will be resigned. Tyson and Amare will most likley be resigned with pay cuts. Or The knicks will go after other free agents if Amare is done. The team will have a good amount of cap flexibility to refill depth lost. They will have 2 first rd draft picks out of the next 3 yrs added to the roster at this time. And will have the rest of there draft picks for the remaining yrs if no trades are made.

I don't see the rebuilding purgatory after the window closes. I see retooling and competitive basketball though most likely not championship asperations unless everything breaks our way with Amare.

We won't have cap space if we so what you're saying. Right now we have $12M on the cap that year; JR is probably going to be resigned for about $5M after this season bringing our total to $17M; if Melo takes no paycut he'll be resigned for $24M bringing out total top $ 41M; even if Amare and Tyson take 50% paycuts they'll still earn $12M and $7M each for a total salary figure of at least $60M. That doesn't include any draft picks or MLE free agents. Basically, if we want to retool in three years Dolan would have to agree to blow this team up and let each of our big 3 leave.

Cap space isn't really what im looking at more so flexibility. Melo isn't going to get 24mil the first yr of his renewed contract. More like 16-20mil depending on the length. Flexibility will come from Tyson and Amare though. With there contracts expiring the GM would be in position to either resign or check the market. If Amare is brought back at 12mil that means he has been at the very least pretty solid for us. If there are more attractive pieces we can go after them if not we can resign Tyson and/or Amare. If they are brought back that still leaves us with Felton, Shump, Melo, Amare, Tyson, Smith if resigned, Novak, 2 first rd draft picks, which is still a competitive team. The guys we would be looking to replace are Kidd, Camby, KT, Wallace, Pablo, Brewer if he doesn't stick.