dk7th wrote:

Uptown wrote:

dk7th wrote:

93BUICK wrote:

dk7th wrote:

93BUICK wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Can't wait to see this guy dominate the ball again

Based on that picture, that's actually the right play Bonn.

Ha, talk about spoilt for choice- if you were melo, who would you pass to in that situation: Landry Fields (25.6% 3pt) or Toney Douglas (23.1% 3pt). Melo can be a ball hog, but sometimes I get why he takes all the shots.

Fields was 25.6% overall. That's probably around 40% on wide open 3s and 10% on contested 3s. Meanwhile, Melo's percentage on contested shots (even just single-coverage contested shots) is quite bad. No matter how much you like to knock Fields, a wide open shot by Field's is a better shot than a triple-teamed shot by Carmelo.
Nalod's right about the bigger picture and the Melo trade, though.

he takes all the shots because he is not interested in building synergy with his teammates. he is not interested in building confidence, and sharing the ball in order to help maintain overall focus.

this is the same problem, the exact same problem, that stoudemire manifests.

putting the burden on lesser players, claiming they need to step up, is profoundly misguided and in fact perverse.

can't wait for someone to say "these guys are professionals it's their job to maintain focus."

You lost me at "synergy"

well, if you are a loyal fan of a player who (1) has never shown what it takes to build a dynamic chemistry, (2) whose teams have generally underachieved, and (3) whose game basically forces the whole team to be less than the sum of its parts... then i am not surprised that you got lost.

if he ever graduates to playing with and for others then we will see success. if he remains a guy who is only capable of merely playing alongside others most of the time then the knicks will not be successful.

Totally disagree- He's not a point forward! He's a dominant scorer and will be utilized as such- Felton and Kidd will orchestrate the offense- I think Lin and Fields wimped out when they played with him - if you can't make a great scorer work in your offense you are not a great PG-

i am sorry but your post makes little sense to me, and here's why first, i know that out of sheer necessity melo had to be forced into the point-forward role early on, and he is not suited to that. but i am not talking about orchestrating so much as keeping the ball moving to keep ahead of the defense, to occasionally run a simple pick and roll play with stoudemire, to anticipate doubles, and just make better decisions with the ball than he has shown. every game i see him play it's almost 75% of the time that he makes the wrong decision. the 25% of plays that he makes a good decision he is one of the most impressive players you will see and he is beautiful to watch.

this tells me that he has the tools but he doesn't have the mind or the will to use them effectively.

you call him a "dominant scorer." well i am not sure what that means, if in fact he dominates the ball with an astronomical usage rate but with barely passable efficiency (55%TS is just not going to cut it) to show for it AND is not a great defender. in my opinion the tipping point between ordinary and elite is anything above 58%TS. melo has been under 57% his entire career. pierce has been above 58% the latter part of his career. durant above 58% the last 3 years. lebron the last 4 years the same.

my issue with your take on things is that when it comes down to looking at your main players they all must be positive-sum players and when you break down melo's game he just isn't. he is a zero-sum player, as is stoudemire. or if that is too harsh, then i'll say both of these guys are far closer to zero-sum players than most knick fans want to believe.

Would you call these TS% superstar #'s

Over the last 4 years this is "Said" players TS%:
56%
54%
54%
52%

Also, "Said" player has a career TS of 55%.......

i don't need to do any research to know that this must be either wade or bryant and i consider both players overrated because they both make the wrong decision with the ball more than 50% of the time. in bryant's case he should have won more easily than he did but he has buss and west and kupchack to thank for his rings. without superior support and sheer luck (perkins hurt in game 6 and garnett hurt he doesn't win either year) and with wade it's basically shaq and the refs supporting the telegenic golden boy for stern.

a heretical viewpoint to many but there you go.

Bang!!!!!!!! So this does at least prove that you are not TKF.

Could not agree more. But Bryant and Wade (not as inefficient as Kobe) are still max players, no?

I love when posters actually care to understand the numbers. And yes. Melo should/could definitely be more efficient and he is certainly not Wades or Kobe's (closer to Kobe offensively NOT DEFENSIVELY).

Also, don't you attribute a big part of PP's improved TS to Rondo?

Edit: Nevermind - the increased TS has to do with his improved FT%

historically...
russell had cousy (HOF) Sam Jones (50 Greatest, HOF) KC Jones (50 Greatest, HOF), Heinsohn (HOF), Satch and later Havlicek...
magic had Kareem and Worthy, Jamaal did not suck
bird had McHale, Parrish, Maxwell, (Lewis for a moment), DJ ... and would have had Len Bias
jordan had Pippen and some outstanding role players
olajuwon had The Glide
duncan had The Admiral
Walton had Maurice Lucas and Lionel Hollins

shaq... sheesh I am getting sleepy

dk7th wrote:

Uptown wrote:

i don't need to do any research to know that this must be either wade or bryant and i consider both players overrated because they both make the wrong decision with the ball more than 50% of the time. in bryant's case he should have won more easily than he did but he has buss and west and kupchack to thank for his rings. without superior support and sheer luck (perkins hurt in game 6 and garnett hurt he doesn't win either year) and with wade it's basically shaq and the refs supporting the telegenic golden boy for stern.
a heretical viewpoint to many but there you go.

Yes, it was Bryant, and no I didn't post those numbers to compare Bryant and Melo, just wanted to point-out that numbers-crunching doesn't always give a full-accurate view of a player. Sometimes you need to just watch the game. From watching the game, I dont need numbers to tell me that Melo is a better player than Pierce, IMO.

I'm glad that you acknowledge that it takes superior talent to win big in this league. Unfortunately, you failed to acknowledge this point when you were knocking Melo for not carrying his team further in the playoffs; past the opposition that for the most part had superior talent.

BTW, if Wade and Bryant are overrated in your eyes, according to you, can you list the superstars or elite players in this league?

i watch the games that pierce and melo play v.e.r.y carefully. based on decision making alone pierce is the savvier player. based on drawing fouls the nod goes to pierce as well. he is also a better 3-point shooter. and i shake my head every time i see him drain a clutch shot, make a clutch pass. the dude is hated by knick fans because he is a celtic and i get that. but he is an underrated player and has shown true greatness. he is methodical and slow but effective. finally i want you to name a player of middling height who possesses better footwork. the dude's footwork is without peer! if he played for a non-rival i wonder what the rep would be around nyc.

as to true "superstars" and "elite players" i won't go there because these terms don't carry meaning for me. the term that does carry meaning is "franchise player" which is a player whose combination of skill, athleticism, mind, and leadership is such that you can build around him with relative ease and yield results that place the team within striking distance of titles for years.

right now only lebron is a franchise player. everyone else may be paid like one but only lebron is a guy you can build around with mediocre talent and still be an elite, top 5 team.

historically...

russell
magic
bird
jordan
olajuwon
duncan
shaq
lebron
(walton would have been but health...)

after that are the guys who need more help:

chamberlain
jabbar
robertson
bryant
mo malone
dr. j
frazier (underrated for some reason even by knick fans)
havlicek
stockton
pippen
dirk

For as many clutch baskets as Pierce has made, Anthony (I believe) ranks even higher in terms of making game winning baskets in the last 5 seconds of games. Anthony is right there with Kobe for game winning game-tying baskets. Melo is also a better scorer than Pierce, averaging 25 pts for his career while Pierce career avg is 22pts. Over the last 5 years, Pierce has averaged over 20 pts 1 time.

Not sure how you come to the conclusion that Pierce is a better decision maker when both average around 3 asts per for their careers. Pierce certainly has better basket-makers playing with him than Melo has over the last 2 years. Pierce does shoot a better % from 3 than Melo has over his career, but Melo is the better rebounder of the 2.

So, Lebron is a franchise player because you can put him on a mediocre team and they still be a top 5 team? Thats your logic for franchise player? News flash, Lebron has elite talent around him, so by your logic, the Heat are unbeatable. No? So Lebron should win every 'Chip as long as he remains in his prime? Also, I believe it was you who said that Melo has to get the Knicks to the ECF, no excuses. Well, what happens if he meets the Lebron and the Heat before then? You cant expect 2nd tier Melo to beat franchise Lebron.....

Uptown wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Uptown wrote:

i don't need to do any research to know that this must be either wade or bryant and i consider both players overrated because they both make the wrong decision with the ball more than 50% of the time. in bryant's case he should have won more easily than he did but he has buss and west and kupchack to thank for his rings. without superior support and sheer luck (perkins hurt in game 6 and garnett hurt he doesn't win either year) and with wade it's basically shaq and the refs supporting the telegenic golden boy for stern.
a heretical viewpoint to many but there you go.

Yes, it was Bryant, and no I didn't post those numbers to compare Bryant and Melo, just wanted to point-out that numbers-crunching doesn't always give a full-accurate view of a player. Sometimes you need to just watch the game. From watching the game, I dont need numbers to tell me that Melo is a better player than Pierce, IMO.

I'm glad that you acknowledge that it takes superior talent to win big in this league. Unfortunately, you failed to acknowledge this point when you were knocking Melo for not carrying his team further in the playoffs; past the opposition that for the most part had superior talent.

BTW, if Wade and Bryant are overrated in your eyes, according to you, can you list the superstars or elite players in this league?

i watch the games that pierce and melo play v.e.r.y carefully. based on decision making alone pierce is the savvier player. based on drawing fouls the nod goes to pierce as well. he is also a better 3-point shooter. and i shake my head every time i see him drain a clutch shot, make a clutch pass. the dude is hated by knick fans because he is a celtic and i get that. but he is an underrated player and has shown true greatness. he is methodical and slow but effective. finally i want you to name a player of middling height who possesses better footwork. the dude's footwork is without peer! if he played for a non-rival i wonder what the rep would be around nyc.

as to true "superstars" and "elite players" i won't go there because these terms don't carry meaning for me. the term that does carry meaning is "franchise player" which is a player whose combination of skill, athleticism, mind, and leadership is such that you can build around him with relative ease and yield results that place the team within striking distance of titles for years.

right now only lebron is a franchise player. everyone else may be paid like one but only lebron is a guy you can build around with mediocre talent and still be an elite, top 5 team.

historically...

russell
magic
bird
jordan
olajuwon
duncan
shaq
lebron
(walton would have been but health...)

after that are the guys who need more help:

chamberlain
jabbar
robertson
bryant
mo malone
dr. j
frazier (underrated for some reason even by knick fans)
havlicek
stockton
pippen
dirk

For as many clutch baskets as Pierce has made, Anthony (I believe) ranks even higher in terms of making game winning baskets in the last 5 seconds of games. Anthony is right there with Kobe for game winning game-tying baskets. Melo is also a better scorer than Pierce, averaging 25 pts for his career while Pierce career avg is 22pts. Over the last 5 years, Pierce has averaged over 20 pts 1 time.

Not sure how you come to the conclusion that Pierce is a better decision maker when both average around 3 asts per for their careers. Pierce certainly has better basket-makers playing with him than Melo has over the last 2 years. Pierce does shoot a better % from 3 than Melo has over his career, but Melo is the better rebounder of the 2.

So, Lebron is a franchise player because you can put him on a mediocre team and they still be a top 5 team? Thats your logic for franchise player? News flash, Lebron has elite talent around him, so by your logic, the Heat are unbeatable. No? So Lebron should win every 'Chip as long as he remains in his prime? Also, I believe it was you who said that Melo has to get the Knicks to the ECF, no excuses. Well, what happens if he meets the Lebron and the Heat before then? You cant expect 2nd tier Melo to beat franchise Lebron.....

well i am basing my opinion about pierce and melo on close observation of the games. so even when you say that their assists are around the same-- pierce's is surely 1-2 more a game than melo anyway-- with pierce i see a highly intelligent player taking only good shots and whose passing is often of the hockey assist variety or simply the kind of passing that keeps everyone else involved and focused. there is no stat for these qualities. i just don't see that with carmelo.

pierce has slowed down the last couple of seasons and as that happens i suppose our memories of a more spry, energetic player fades. but even as he slows down, his footwork is practically without peer and that footwork helps extend his career and actually helps aid his decisions too in terms of options.

you mention end of game situations. okay maybe they are both good at end game situations. but my primary concern is not the end of games but the way things go during the rest of games. what i see happening is that pierce takes his time and picks and chooses his shots when he needs to break the will of the opponent and that can happen anytime the opponent makes a run or when the celtics need to pad their lead. behind this is his ability to conserve his energy while still being effective on both ends. how much of this is coaching? i'm not sure.

yes the heat are virtually unbeatable even though they still are less than the sum of their parts. there is such a thing as too much talent especially when that talent tends to overlap too much as is the case with wade and lbj. but you can see that wade made a conscious decision to take a backseat as a way of addressing this issue. and bosh did as well... as though that was ever in doubt. they still tend to play alongside each other more than with and for each other, but as someone said here recently they simply have enough talent to get away with it-- talent and two main guys who are superior defenders.

the knicks two guys are several levels below and that is the main problem no matter who they are surrounded with.

Bonn1997 wrote:Can't wait to see this guy dominate the ball again

Jayzus! this discussion is from 6 months ago!

jrodmc wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Can't wait to see this guy dominate the ball again

Jayzus! this discussion is from 6 months ago!

What's so funny is his options..Fields and Toney Douglas LOL...I'm not sure if I'm upset at Melo for not passing LOL. Last year was brutal...glad that's over.

nixluva wrote:I think too many Knick fans are stuck in the past. This team is really very interesting now and should be fun to root for this season.

Exactly. Even as the Knicks pile up wins we got guys telling us why we shouldn't like the team or root for them or why we shouldn't praise management. Its like pavlovs dog. Maybe by the end of the season they'll realize the ringing of the bell doesn't alwyas mean an electric shock anymore and be able to enjoy these wins.