dk7th wrote:the only logical move that woodson should make is what walt frazier has recently suggested: have amare come off the bench. there he can play the finisher in the pick and roll (isn't that prigoni's specialty? kidd is probably adequate in the pick and roll too), be the main guy (like we saw the first 60 games of 2010-11), work on whatever post-up game he may be able to develop against weaker bench defenders.

it is just that simple.

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:the only logical move that woodson should make is what walt frazier has recently suggested: have amare come off the bench. there he can play the finisher in the pick and roll (isn't that prigoni's specialty? kidd is probably adequate in the pick and roll too), be the main guy (like we saw the first 60 games of 2010-11), work on whatever post-up game he may be able to develop against weaker bench defenders.

it is just that simple.

100 MIL MAN coming off bench? ouch.... PR nightmare especially if we still don't win..

acquiring carmelo came at a very high initial price but the residual effects continue to resonate. it wasn't only losing chandler, gallo, mozgov. it also immediately meant that d'antoni, stoudemire, and fields would become marginalized. i am not optimistic that woodson can figure this out. i know the players can't-- they don;t have the tools or the mindset.

it could be a PR nightmare but then the upside is if the knicks start winning it washes away many sins. stoudemire needs redemption. he got shafted in the melo trade.

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:the only logical move that woodson should make is what walt frazier has recently suggested: have amare come off the bench. there he can play the finisher in the pick and roll (isn't that prigoni's specialty? kidd is probably adequate in the pick and roll too), be the main guy (like we saw the first 60 games of 2010-11), work on whatever post-up game he may be able to develop against weaker bench defenders.

it is just that simple.

100 MIL MAN coming off bench? ouch.... PR nightmare especially if we still don't win..

acquiring carmelo came at a very high initial price but the residual effects continue to resonate. it wasn't only losing chandler, gallo, mozgov. it also immediately meant that d'antoni, stoudemire, and fields would become marginalized. i am not optimistic that woodson can figure this out. i know the players can't-- they don;t have the tools or the mindset.

it could be a PR nightmare but then the upside is if the knicks start winning it washes away many sins. stoudemire needs redemption. he got shafted in the melo trade.

Let's pretend you are trying to be objective and I'll give you reasons why the Knicks had to make the trade...With STAT playing out of his mind and at MVP levels, Knicks weren't much better than a .500 team...There was no way the Amare would have kept up that performance...I remember starting a thread that said there is no way Amare keeps this up, he needs help...Gallo and Will wasn't ready to step into a number two role...Heck, two years later, they still aren't ready...Felton was our second best player, think about that....The Knicks went all in giving Amare 100 mil...They weren't about to let their young players develop on a team paying Amare 100 mil for shets and giggles...They didn't hire MDA at 6 mil per to nurture kids...

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:the only logical move that woodson should make is what walt frazier has recently suggested: have amare come off the bench. there he can play the finisher in the pick and roll (isn't that prigoni's specialty? kidd is probably adequate in the pick and roll too), be the main guy (like we saw the first 60 games of 2010-11), work on whatever post-up game he may be able to develop against weaker bench defenders.

it is just that simple.

100 MIL MAN coming off bench? ouch.... PR nightmare especially if we still don't win..

acquiring carmelo came at a very high initial price but the residual effects continue to resonate. it wasn't only losing chandler, gallo, mozgov. it also immediately meant that d'antoni, stoudemire, and fields would become marginalized. i am not optimistic that woodson can figure this out. i know the players can't-- they don;t have the tools or the mindset.

it could be a PR nightmare but then the upside is if the knicks start winning it washes away many sins. stoudemire needs redemption. he got shafted in the melo trade.

Let's pretend you are trying to be objective and I'll give you reasons why the Knicks had to make the trade...With STAT playing out of his mind and at MVP levels, Knicks weren't much better than a .500 team...There was no way the Amare would keep up that performance...I remember starting a thread that said there is no way Amare keeps this up, he needs help...Gallo and Will wasn't ready to step into a number two role...Heck, two years later, they still aren't ready...The Knicks went all in giving Amare 100 mil...They weren't about to let their young players develop on a team paying Amare 100 mil for shets and giggles...They didn't hire MDA at 6 mil per to nurture kids...

let's be clear here: starting posts with accusing me of not being objective doesn't make a persuasive case at all.

i have been through the stoudemire routine before. i don't buy into the "beasting" and "putting the team on his back" line of thinking as you do. it is part of a very shallow and selfish mindset about the team game. going into that season i expected him to show what he could do as the best player on a young team by doing the one thing we expect from the best players: make others around him better.

stoudemire did the opposite. stoudemire put up big numbers but contributed nothing to creating chemistry let alone synergy. forcing up shots over two and three defenders is not playing winning basketball. if it ever occurred to fans that he should have been working on ball movement, finding the open man, upping his assists, making hockey assists, hustle plays, and so on-- the knicks would have had a better than 28-26 record by the time of the trade. he also would not have burned himself out. he gets all the personal accolades to look like he is winning the battles but winning the war requires making others better, not freezing them out.

paying 100 million for stoudemire was a plan B and was kind of worth it. we had the space to do it after walsh's brilliant roster flushing.

carmelo? you don't do anything differently: pay him max money if you must but don't trade away assets. that was walsh's plan but dolan had other ideas and now it is what it is.the knicks didn't need to make the trade unless you think dolan is a better basketball mind than walsh.

I think you are forgetting that the owners had made it known that they were locking out the players and that there would be a new cba in place. Melo would have left Denver and gone to another team at the deadline, probably the Nets. He forced the issue with the Nuggets because he wanted to get paid before the new cba was put in place.
Also, I don't know how great plan b was. I think Walsh had to do something after two horrific years of purging the team of salary, picks and some young players. Getting Stat uninsured for the max was the best he could do but not what was planned.

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:the only logical move that woodson should make is what walt frazier has recently suggested: have amare come off the bench. there he can play the finisher in the pick and roll (isn't that prigoni's specialty? kidd is probably adequate in the pick and roll too), be the main guy (like we saw the first 60 games of 2010-11), work on whatever post-up game he may be able to develop against weaker bench defenders.

it is just that simple.

100 MIL MAN coming off bench? ouch.... PR nightmare especially if we still don't win..

acquiring carmelo came at a very high initial price but the residual effects continue to resonate. it wasn't only losing chandler, gallo, mozgov. it also immediately meant that d'antoni, stoudemire, and fields would become marginalized. i am not optimistic that woodson can figure this out. i know the players can't-- they don;t have the tools or the mindset.

it could be a PR nightmare but then the upside is if the knicks start winning it washes away many sins. stoudemire needs redemption. he got shafted in the melo trade.

Let's pretend you are trying to be objective and I'll give you reasons why the Knicks had to make the trade...With STAT playing out of his mind and at MVP levels, Knicks weren't much better than a .500 team...There was no way the Amare would keep up that performance...I remember starting a thread that said there is no way Amare keeps this up, he needs help...Gallo and Will wasn't ready to step into a number two role...Heck, two years later, they still aren't ready...The Knicks went all in giving Amare 100 mil...They weren't about to let their young players develop on a team paying Amare 100 mil for shets and giggles...They didn't hire MDA at 6 mil per to nurture kids...

let's be clear here: starting posts with accusing me of not being objective doesn't make a persuasive case at all.

i have been through the stoudemire routine before. i don't buy into the "beasting" and "putting the team on his back" line of thinking as you do. it is part of a very shallow and selfish mindset about the team game. going into that season i expected him to show what he could do as the best player on a young team by doing the one thing we expect from the best players: make others around him better.

stoudemire did the opposite. stoudemire put up big numbers but contributed nothing to creating chemistry let alone synergy. forcing up shots over two and three defenders is not playing winning basketball. if it ever occurred to fans that he should have been working on ball movement, finding the open man, upping his assists, making hockey assists, hustle plays, and so on-- the knicks would have had a better than 28-26 record by the time of the trade. he also would not have burned himself out. he gets all the personal accolades to look like he is winning the battles but winning the war requires making others better, not freezing them out.

paying 100 million for stoudemire was a plan B and was kind of worth it. we had the space to do it after walsh's brilliant roster flushing.

carmelo? you don't do anything differently: pay him max money if you must but don't trade away assets. that was walsh's plan but dolan had other ideas and now it is what it is.

the knicks didn't need to make the trade unless you think dolan is a better basketball mind than walsh.

Well regarding being objective, you kind of paint yourself in a corner when you started a response in another thread saying "supporters of Anthony like to use"..You are in essence saying you are not a supporter...

Amare wasn't brought here to make the extra pass or to rack up assist...I'm not sure if you remember the season started out in a bad way...The entire team was playing like crap...Amare stepped up and said everyone had to play better and he led the way...He did exactly what a leader should do...Played hard and led by example..I'm just amazed anyone who have any objections by the way he played in the first half...Amazed...

You talk so much about defense...Walsh hired a coach who doesn't coach defense...

yes i thought the trade was a terrible move. carmelo is a very very good player but not what the knicks needed. he isn't a franchise player and tyou don't trade for non-franhise players. pay the max if you must but don't do anything more than that. i support good trades and good players who come here in good trades. i don't support good players who come here in bad trades.

the knicks were playing like crap during the first 25 games that totally new teams need to find a way to gel? hmmm. not a lot of patience if that is the case. maybe the below par orchestrating skills of ray felton had something to do with that. maybe stoudemire not doing right by his teammates had something to do with that too. so you lose me when you make the claim that "stoudemire was not brought here to make the extra pass or rack up assists." what in the world do you pay max money for but to ask a player to make his team better through involving teammates, not merely getting his? the guy has zero court vision on either end of the floor. he punched himself out which is the sign of a one-dimensional player not suited to be a number one. he talked the talk sure, but he did not actually walk the walk.

you are right about walsh hiring d'antoni. it was not for defense. but why stop there? walsh gave felton a two year cheap contract for a reason: to upgrade at the point guard position if ray did not pan out. why? because he was going to try to give his coach and his most expensive player the best possible chance to succeed.

instead walsh was shoved aside in mid-february 2011 and the rest is history.

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:the only logical move that woodson should make is what walt frazier has recently suggested: have amare come off the bench. there he can play the finisher in the pick and roll (isn't that prigoni's specialty? kidd is probably adequate in the pick and roll too), be the main guy (like we saw the first 60 games of 2010-11), work on whatever post-up game he may be able to develop against weaker bench defenders.

it is just that simple.

100 MIL MAN coming off bench? ouch.... PR nightmare especially if we still don't win..

acquiring carmelo came at a very high initial price but the residual effects continue to resonate. it wasn't only losing chandler, gallo, mozgov. it also immediately meant that d'antoni, stoudemire, and fields would become marginalized. i am not optimistic that woodson can figure this out. i know the players can't-- they don;t have the tools or the mindset.

it could be a PR nightmare but then the upside is if the knicks start winning it washes away many sins. stoudemire needs redemption. he got shafted in the melo trade.

Let's pretend you are trying to be objective and I'll give you reasons why the Knicks had to make the trade...With STAT playing out of his mind and at MVP levels, Knicks weren't much better than a .500 team...There was no way the Amare would keep up that performance...I remember starting a thread that said there is no way Amare keeps this up, he needs help...Gallo and Will wasn't ready to step into a number two role...Heck, two years later, they still aren't ready...The Knicks went all in giving Amare 100 mil...They weren't about to let their young players develop on a team paying Amare 100 mil for shets and giggles...They didn't hire MDA at 6 mil per to nurture kids...

let's be clear here: starting posts with accusing me of not being objective doesn't make a persuasive case at all.

i have been through the stoudemire routine before. i don't buy into the "beasting" and "putting the team on his back" line of thinking as you do. it is part of a very shallow and selfish mindset about the team game. going into that season i expected him to show what he could do as the best player on a young team by doing the one thing we expect from the best players: make others around him better.

stoudemire did the opposite. stoudemire put up big numbers but contributed nothing to creating chemistry let alone synergy. forcing up shots over two and three defenders is not playing winning basketball. if it ever occurred to fans that he should have been working on ball movement, finding the open man, upping his assists, making hockey assists, hustle plays, and so on-- the knicks would have had a better than 28-26 record by the time of the trade. he also would not have burned himself out. he gets all the personal accolades to look like he is winning the battles but winning the war requires making others better, not freezing them out.

paying 100 million for stoudemire was a plan B and was kind of worth it. we had the space to do it after walsh's brilliant roster flushing.

carmelo? you don't do anything differently: pay him max money if you must but don't trade away assets. that was walsh's plan but dolan had other ideas and now it is what it is.

the knicks didn't need to make the trade unless you think dolan is a better basketball mind than walsh.

Well regarding being objective, you kind of paint yourself in a corner when you started a response in another thread saying "supporters of Anthony like to use"..You are in essence saying you are not a supporter...

Amare wasn't brought here to make the extra pass or to rack up assist...I'm not sure if you remember the season started out in a bad way...The entire team was playing like crap...Amare stepped up and said everyone had to play better and he led the way...He did exactly what a leader should do...Played hard and led by example..I'm just amazed anyone who have any objections by the way he played in the first half...Amazed...

You talk so much about defense...Walsh hired a coach who doesn't coach defense...

yes i thought the trade was a terrible move. carmelo is a very very good player but not what the knicks needed. he isn't a franchise player and tyou don't trade for non-franhise players. pay the max if you must but don't do anything more than that. i support good trades and good players who come here in good trades. i don't support good players who come here in bad trades.

the knicks were playing like crap during the first 25 games that totally new teams need to find a way to gel? hmmm. not a lot of patience if that is the case. maybe the below par orchestrating skills of ray felton had something to do with that. maybe stoudemire not doing right by his teammates had something to do with that too. so you lose me when you make the claim that "stoudemire was not brought here to make the extra pass or rack up assists." what in the world do you pay max money for but to ask a player to make his team better through involving teammates, not merely getting his? the guy has zero court vision on either end of the floor. he punched himself out which is the sign of a one-dimensional player not suited to be a number one. he talked the talk sure, but he did not actually walk the walk.

you are right about walsh hiring d'antoni. it was not for defense. but why stop there? walsh gave felton a two year cheap contract for a reason: to upgrade at the point guard position if ray did not pan out. why? because he was going to try to give his coach and his most expensive player the best possible chance to succeed.

instead walsh was shoved aside in mid-february 2011 and the rest is history.

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:the only logical move that woodson should make is what walt frazier has recently suggested: have amare come off the bench. there he can play the finisher in the pick and roll (isn't that prigoni's specialty? kidd is probably adequate in the pick and roll too), be the main guy (like we saw the first 60 games of 2010-11), work on whatever post-up game he may be able to develop against weaker bench defenders.

it is just that simple.

100 MIL MAN coming off bench? ouch.... PR nightmare especially if we still don't win..

acquiring carmelo came at a very high initial price but the residual effects continue to resonate. it wasn't only losing chandler, gallo, mozgov. it also immediately meant that d'antoni, stoudemire, and fields would become marginalized. i am not optimistic that woodson can figure this out. i know the players can't-- they don;t have the tools or the mindset.

it could be a PR nightmare but then the upside is if the knicks start winning it washes away many sins. stoudemire needs redemption. he got shafted in the melo trade.

Let's pretend you are trying to be objective and I'll give you reasons why the Knicks had to make the trade...With STAT playing out of his mind and at MVP levels, Knicks weren't much better than a .500 team...There was no way the Amare would have kept up that performance...I remember starting a thread that said there is no way Amare keeps this up, he needs help...Gallo and Will wasn't ready to step into a number two role...Heck, two years later, they still aren't ready...Felton was our second best player, think about that....The Knicks went all in giving Amare 100 mil...They weren't about to let their young players develop on a team paying Amare 100 mil for shets and giggles...They didn't hire MDA at 6 mil per to nurture kids...

gallo is arguable the number two player on denver.. a team with a better record than us...

holfresh wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:the only logical move that woodson should make is what walt frazier has recently suggested: have amare come off the bench. there he can play the finisher in the pick and roll (isn't that prigoni's specialty? kidd is probably adequate in the pick and roll too), be the main guy (like we saw the first 60 games of 2010-11), work on whatever post-up game he may be able to develop against weaker bench defenders.

it is just that simple.

100 MIL MAN coming off bench? ouch.... PR nightmare especially if we still don't win..

acquiring carmelo came at a very high initial price but the residual effects continue to resonate. it wasn't only losing chandler, gallo, mozgov. it also immediately meant that d'antoni, stoudemire, and fields would become marginalized. i am not optimistic that woodson can figure this out. i know the players can't-- they don;t have the tools or the mindset.

it could be a PR nightmare but then the upside is if the knicks start winning it washes away many sins. stoudemire needs redemption. he got shafted in the melo trade.

Let's pretend you are trying to be objective and I'll give you reasons why the Knicks had to make the trade...With STAT playing out of his mind and at MVP levels, Knicks weren't much better than a .500 team...There was no way the Amare would have kept up that performance...I remember starting a thread that said there is no way Amare keeps this up, he needs help...Gallo and Will wasn't ready to step into a number two role...Heck, two years later, they still aren't ready...Felton was our second best player, think about that....The Knicks went all in giving Amare 100 mil...They weren't about to let their young players develop on a team paying Amare 100 mil for shets and giggles...They didn't hire MDA at 6 mil per to nurture kids...

gallo is arguable the number two player on denver.. a team with a better record than us...

So Gallo and Melo are equal in value?...MDA is no longer the coach, we play defense now...

we paid a number two player max money at 20 million a year, they paid half that for gallo, ie the right price. and yes gallinari is an appreciably better defender than anthony. woodson would love a player who plays defense like gallinari.

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:the only logical move that woodson should make is what walt frazier has recently suggested: have amare come off the bench. there he can play the finisher in the pick and roll (isn't that prigoni's specialty? kidd is probably adequate in the pick and roll too), be the main guy (like we saw the first 60 games of 2010-11), work on whatever post-up game he may be able to develop against weaker bench defenders.

it is just that simple.

100 MIL MAN coming off bench? ouch.... PR nightmare especially if we still don't win..

acquiring carmelo came at a very high initial price but the residual effects continue to resonate. it wasn't only losing chandler, gallo, mozgov. it also immediately meant that d'antoni, stoudemire, and fields would become marginalized. i am not optimistic that woodson can figure this out. i know the players can't-- they don;t have the tools or the mindset.

it could be a PR nightmare but then the upside is if the knicks start winning it washes away many sins. stoudemire needs redemption. he got shafted in the melo trade.

Let's pretend you are trying to be objective and I'll give you reasons why the Knicks had to make the trade...With STAT playing out of his mind and at MVP levels, Knicks weren't much better than a .500 team...There was no way the Amare would have kept up that performance...I remember starting a thread that said there is no way Amare keeps this up, he needs help...Gallo and Will wasn't ready to step into a number two role...Heck, two years later, they still aren't ready...Felton was our second best player, think about that....The Knicks went all in giving Amare 100 mil...They weren't about to let their young players develop on a team paying Amare 100 mil for shets and giggles...They didn't hire MDA at 6 mil per to nurture kids...

gallo is arguable the number two player on denver.. a team with a better record than us...

So Gallo and Melo are equal in value?...MDA is no longer the coach, we play defense now...

we paid a number two player max money at 20 million a year, they paid half that for gallo, ie the right price. and yes gallinari is an appreciably better defender than anthony. woodson would love a player who plays defense like gallinari.

In your dreams...

so you're claiming carmelo is the superior defender now? lol

holfresh wrote:

tkf wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:the only logical move that woodson should make is what walt frazier has recently suggested: have amare come off the bench. there he can play the finisher in the pick and roll (isn't that prigoni's specialty? kidd is probably adequate in the pick and roll too), be the main guy (like we saw the first 60 games of 2010-11), work on whatever post-up game he may be able to develop against weaker bench defenders.

it is just that simple.

100 MIL MAN coming off bench? ouch.... PR nightmare especially if we still don't win..

acquiring carmelo came at a very high initial price but the residual effects continue to resonate. it wasn't only losing chandler, gallo, mozgov. it also immediately meant that d'antoni, stoudemire, and fields would become marginalized. i am not optimistic that woodson can figure this out. i know the players can't-- they don;t have the tools or the mindset.

it could be a PR nightmare but then the upside is if the knicks start winning it washes away many sins. stoudemire needs redemption. he got shafted in the melo trade.

Let's pretend you are trying to be objective and I'll give you reasons why the Knicks had to make the trade...With STAT playing out of his mind and at MVP levels, Knicks weren't much better than a .500 team...There was no way the Amare would have kept up that performance...I remember starting a thread that said there is no way Amare keeps this up, he needs help...Gallo and Will wasn't ready to step into a number two role...Heck, two years later, they still aren't ready...Felton was our second best player, think about that....The Knicks went all in giving Amare 100 mil...They weren't about to let their young players develop on a team paying Amare 100 mil for shets and giggles...They didn't hire MDA at 6 mil per to nurture kids...

gallo is arguable the number two player on denver.. a team with a better record than us...

So Gallo and Melo are equal in value?...MDA is no longer the coach, we play defense now...

IT DEPENDS on what you value....