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If Lin would have done the same thing with any other team as he did with the Knicks. Would he have been as popular??
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knicks1248
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7/23/2012  7:31 PM
martin wrote:
earthmansurfer wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:Definitely more in baseball

Greg Jeffries
Shane Spencer
Kevin Maas
Benny A.

In basketball, even Landry Fields crashed

Lin is definitely the all time story in BBall (NY) but it would have been a better barometer if he actually did it against good teams (where he was awful).

I agree and there is no close second. The question is "How does a Billionaire owner in The Big City of New York let that walk for nothing (and don't forget the money and fans that will come globally as well)?"

Again, this was not a financial decision, connect the dots...

As an asset I hated losing Lin, and to be sure, I wanted the Knicks to match. But I will also say there are some compelling basketball and financial and other reasons to not match too.

Let's start with the fact the Lin was most effective with the ball in his hands and scoring. Those 2 things seemed to go hand-and-hand with the 2 big win streaks the Knicks had while he was at the helm. Does this mesh well with Amare/Melo? Lin certainly had some good games with those 2 but would those guys be better with a PG who would concentrate on running team and setting them up (and others) versus what made Lin magical?

Are the Knicks a half court team or a run-n-gun team? Which pace favors the long term team playoff goals versus Lin's strengths?

What would Lin do during the playoffs? Are the Knicks fanbase ready for 6+ TOs a game against playoff teams (def need to extrapolate that one)?

By not signing Lin, do the Knicks keep a hint of flexibility for a trade if it presents itself?

Also, $ implications. Not only for Lin's contract, but for future contracts. All fans HATE it when players use the Knicks to inflate their contract with current teams, perhaps the Knicks were tired of it and drew the line on Lin/Houston and Fields/TOR obviously having the same over-sized contract; this does establish a new precedent (albeit after years of doing the opposite). Knicks management to players: prove yourself and THEN we pay you.

Is Lin durable enough?

Is his defense good enough?

Would his presence/learning curve distract the team as a whole over the next 3 years?

Did Lin really want to be in NY? If not, from the Knicks' perspective, why match? Lin def had an outline of a deal for $5, $5, $9M, 4th year option. Now, no one in their right mind (and in Lin's current financial position) turns down an offer for $15M in the third over that first outline of a deal, but you also must consider the implications of everything else regarding what it entails: 1) $15M per year is a "max" sized contract and there are expectations around that, particularly and especially in NY. 2) SOMEONE let the details of the first deal out and THEN decided to go back to the drawing board and Lin/agent/Houston were all privy to that type of decision-making and how Dolan/MSG/Knicks would react (you'd be a fool to NOT know that Jimmy would be not happy) - that does break unwritten NBA "rules" (almost akin to, but not nearly as bad as, what Booz did).

Question to readers: Is anyone surprised by Dolan's reaction to the second offer? I suspect Lin and his agent and Houston weren't either. Which leads me to:

All things being equal, Lin is going to make a butt load of money over the next 3 years, almost without regard to how well he does on the court. Lin was the one who decided that it may be worth making the extra $6M to walk away from the Linsanity story, cause it certainly wont happen like that in Houston (no guarantees it would be replicated in the future with NY but the swan song could certainly sing pretty close).

Got that? After knowing he would have a guaranteed $20M+ from the Knicks if they matched that first contract, plus the gobs of money from endorsements, say another $10+ over the course of a couple of years (so now a total of maybe $30+M), Lin was OK with walking away from the storyline for $6M.

Lin didn't know if the Knicks would match or not but decided to let $6M and whim tangle with his Linsanity instead of pressing his will onto Knicks history ala someone like Clyde.

Now, to me and all us average Joe's: what lifestyle difference is there between $30M and $36M when you come from $800K?

And if he did believe in Linsanity and his own talents, his next contract would have been through the roof and that $6M would have been negligible.

For me: Lin walked away from the Knicks (and Linsanity) as much as the Knicks did not match Lin's second offer.

the quetion is, who will regret it lin or the knicks

ES
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mrKnickShot
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7/23/2012  7:32 PM
One question I had was, did Lin have to sign the Houston contract? No. He did not.

So ... what if he says no to Houston's second contract and goes back to the Knicks, what offer sheet do the knicks have to match? None, right? Then, what do the knicks pay him?

Papabear
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7/23/2012  9:41 PM
ChuckBuck wrote:
earthmansurfer wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:Definitely more in baseball

Greg Jeffries
Shane Spencer
Kevin Maas
Benny A.

In basketball, even Landry Fields crashed

Lin is definitely the all time story in BBall (NY) but it would have been a better barometer if he actually did it against good teams (where he was awful).

I agree and there is no close second. The question is "How does a Billionaire owner in The Big City of New York let that walk for nothing (and don't forget the money and fans that will come globally as well)?"

Again, this was not a financial decision, connect the dots...

I still prefer the John Starks story, because he was actually bagging groceries in Oklahoma before becoming an All star, 6th man of the year with the Knicks, and making severable memorable plays in the playoffs such as "The Dunk" and the infamous Game 7 against Houston.

Lin can't compare to Starks, 35 games in the regular season give me a break.

Papabear Says

Hey Hey Chuck Buck you are biting what I said earlier on the forum see!!
Papabear Says

It was the media who blew him up. It was a nice story. And you must remember he was under the radar. Now everyone will be on him so he better watch thoes turnovers. I also like the John Starks story better. Starks was totally out of the league packing grocery's. At least Starks have year's under his belt.

Papabear
ChuckBuck
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7/23/2012  9:51 PM
Papabear wrote:
ChuckBuck wrote:
earthmansurfer wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:Definitely more in baseball

Greg Jeffries
Shane Spencer
Kevin Maas
Benny A.

In basketball, even Landry Fields crashed

Lin is definitely the all time story in BBall (NY) but it would have been a better barometer if he actually did it against good teams (where he was awful).

I agree and there is no close second. The question is "How does a Billionaire owner in The Big City of New York let that walk for nothing (and don't forget the money and fans that will come globally as well)?"

Again, this was not a financial decision, connect the dots...

I still prefer the John Starks story, because he was actually bagging groceries in Oklahoma before becoming an All star, 6th man of the year with the Knicks, and making severable memorable plays in the playoffs such as "The Dunk" and the infamous Game 7 against Houston.

Lin can't compare to Starks, 35 games in the regular season give me a break.

Papabear Says

Hey Hey Chuck Buck you are biting what I said earlier on the forum see!!
Papabear Says

It was the media who blew him up. It was a nice story. And you must remember he was under the radar. Now everyone will be on him so he better watch thoes turnovers. I also like the John Starks story better. Starks was totally out of the league packing grocery's. At least Starks have year's under his belt.

Haha, guess so Papabear. We share the same viewpoint on this.

CashMoney
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7/24/2012  12:08 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
martin wrote:
earthmansurfer wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:Definitely more in baseball

Greg Jeffries
Shane Spencer
Kevin Maas
Benny A.

In basketball, even Landry Fields crashed

Lin is definitely the all time story in BBall (NY) but it would have been a better barometer if he actually did it against good teams (where he was awful).

I agree and there is no close second. The question is "How does a Billionaire owner in The Big City of New York let that walk for nothing (and don't forget the money and fans that will come globally as well)?"

Again, this was not a financial decision, connect the dots...

As an asset I hated losing Lin, and to be sure, I wanted the Knicks to match. But I will also say there are some compelling basketball and financial and other reasons to not match too.

Let's start with the fact the Lin was most effective with the ball in his hands and scoring. Those 2 things seemed to go hand-and-hand with the 2 big win streaks the Knicks had while he was at the helm. Does this mesh well with Amare/Melo? Lin certainly had some good games with those 2 but would those guys be better with a PG who would concentrate on running team and setting them up (and others) versus what made Lin magical?

Are the Knicks a half court team or a run-n-gun team? Which pace favors the long term team playoff goals versus Lin's strengths?

What would Lin do during the playoffs? Are the Knicks fanbase ready for 6+ TOs a game against playoff teams (def need to extrapolate that one)?

By not signing Lin, do the Knicks keep a hint of flexibility for a trade if it presents itself?

Also, $ implications. Not only for Lin's contract, but for future contracts. All fans HATE it when players use the Knicks to inflate their contract with current teams, perhaps the Knicks were tired of it and drew the line on Lin/Houston and Fields/TOR obviously having the same over-sized contract; this does establish a new precedent (albeit after years of doing the opposite). Knicks management to players: prove yourself and THEN we pay you.

Is Lin durable enough?

Is his defense good enough?

Would his presence/learning curve distract the team as a whole over the next 3 years?

Did Lin really want to be in NY? If not, from the Knicks' perspective, why match? Lin def had an outline of a deal for $5, $5, $9M, 4th year option. Now, no one in their right mind (and in Lin's current financial position) turns down an offer for $15M in the third over that first outline of a deal, but you also must consider the implications of everything else regarding what it entails: 1) $15M per year is a "max" sized contract and there are expectations around that, particularly and especially in NY. 2) SOMEONE let the details of the first deal out and THEN decided to go back to the drawing board and Lin/agent/Houston were all privy to that type of decision-making and how Dolan/MSG/Knicks would react (you'd be a fool to NOT know that Jimmy would be not happy) - that does break unwritten NBA "rules" (almost akin to, but not nearly as bad as, what Booz did).

Question to readers: Is anyone surprised by Dolan's reaction to the second offer? I suspect Lin and his agent and Houston weren't either. Which leads me to:

All things being equal, Lin is going to make a butt load of money over the next 3 years, almost without regard to how well he does on the court. Lin was the one who decided that it may be worth making the extra $6M to walk away from the Linsanity story, cause it certainly wont happen like that in Houston (no guarantees it would be replicated in the future with NY but the swan song could certainly sing pretty close).

Got that? After knowing he would have a guaranteed $20M+ from the Knicks if they matched that first contract, plus the gobs of money from endorsements, say another $10+ over the course of a couple of years (so now a total of maybe $30+M), Lin was OK with walking away from the storyline for $6M.

Lin didn't know if the Knicks would match or not but decided to let $6M and whim tangle with his Linsanity instead of pressing his will onto Knicks history ala someone like Clyde.

Now, to me and all us average Joe's: what lifestyle difference is there between $30M and $36M when you come from $800K?

And if he did believe in Linsanity and his own talents, his next contract would have been through the roof and that $6M would have been negligible.

For me: Lin walked away from the Knicks (and Linsanity) as much as the Knicks did not match Lin's second offer.

the quetion is, who will regret it lin or the knicks

I think it will be Lin. He's going to be the man in Houston and PG's are going to bring it to him. Deron got beat up his first time around and killed Lin the 2nd time. Rondo make him look terrbile as did Calderon. PG's are tough out West.

Blue & Orange 4 Life!
earthmansurfer
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7/24/2012  7:43 AM
martin wrote:
As an asset I hated losing Lin, and to be sure, I wanted the Knicks to match. But I will also say there are some compelling basketball and financial and other reasons to not match too.

So we can agree this made little to no sense.

Let's start with the fact the Lin was most effective with the ball in his hands and scoring. Those 2 things seemed to go hand-and-hand with the 2 big win streaks the Knicks had while he was at the helm. Does this mesh well with Amare/Melo? Lin certainly had some good games with those 2 but would those guys be better with a PG who would concentrate on running team and setting them up (and others) versus what made Lin magical?

One injury to either of those guys and who is our big scorer? It won't be our center. JR? Oh boy, he is great when not relied on but when he needs to be relied on he is out of his element. Can Stat and Melo even play well together. I just feel we gave up a great possibility should Stat be moved regarding Stat and Melo still not working.

Are the Knicks a half court team or a run-n-gun team? Which pace favors the long term team playoff goals versus Lin's strengths?

It is pretty clear Lin was best as an uptempo PG, But also clear he was no slouch in the halfcourt and he was just starting.
What would Lin do during the playoffs? Are the Knicks fanbase ready for 6+ TOs a game against playoff teams (def need to extrapolate that one)?

His turnovers really started to go down and were mostly related to him being aggressive. I watched him play and for the most part his TO's were ok - the price you pay for that kind of continued penetration. Other top PG's (not that Lin is top), often are at around 4 and I think Lin would have settled there in an up tempo system. Less if half court.

By not signing Lin, do the Knicks keep a hint of flexibility for a trade if it presents itself?

We just let our best asset, in Lin, walk. Stat will be an expiring. Who else has real value? I don't want to trade Chandler.

Also, $ implications. Not only for Lin's contract, but for future contracts. All fans HATE it when players use the Knicks to inflate their contract with current teams, perhaps the Knicks were tired of it and drew the line on Lin/Houston and Fields/TOR obviously having the same over-sized contract; this does establish a new precedent (albeit after years of doing the opposite). Knicks management to players: prove yourself and THEN we pay you.

Not an issue. Lin would pay for himself and the taxes. We can't argue what he brings to the team. This was more a power thing, keeping control of the team on Melo, Woodson, Dolan, etc.

Is Lin durable enough?

Is Stat? He has the history, not Lin. Again, Stat goes out and we can't compete for the Championship.
Is Chandler? Well, no we have Camby, but is Camby? Chandler played a lot of minutes last year, we have to be careful there.

Is his defense good enough?

Well, look at before minutes became an issue and burned him out. He was excellent, not just good. Very very heady player with very good athleticism.

Would his presence/learning curve distract the team as a whole over the next 3 years?

The team as a whole? This team seems to revolve around Melo and Stat and the question is can they co-exist. A good+ PG is only going to help that, especially when you have two great teachers in Kidd and the foreign guy.

Did Lin really want to be in NY? If not, from the Knicks' perspective, why match? Lin def had an outline of a deal for $5, $5, $9M, 4th year option. Now, no one in their right mind (and in Lin's current financial position) turns down an offer for $15M in the third over that first outline of a deal, but you also must consider the implications of everything else regarding what it entails: 1) $15M per year is a "max" sized contract and there are expectations around that, particularly and especially in NY. 2) SOMEONE let the details of the first deal out and THEN decided to go back to the drawing board and Lin/agent/Houston were all privy to that type of decision-making and how Dolan/MSG/Knicks would react (you'd be a fool to NOT know that Jimmy would be not happy) - that does break unwritten NBA "rules" (almost akin to, but not nearly as bad as, what Booz did).

Not even a question. Whether or not he did, he sure played his heart out here. Enough of an answer for me, not to mention this is a business. Can't have your cake and eat it too on this one. We are reaching now.
Question to readers: Is anyone surprised by Dolan's reaction to the second offer? I suspect Lin and his agent and Houston weren't either. Which leads me to:

I am surprised, or rather was. The Knicks said they would match anything. Lin got a deal that averaged 8 million for 3 years. It could have been MUCH WORSE - could have been a 4th year.

All things being equal, Lin is going to make a butt load of money over the next 3 years, almost without regard to how well he does on the court. Lin was the one who decided that it may be worth making the extra $6M to walk away from the Linsanity story, cause it certainly wont happen like that in Houston (no guarantees it would be replicated in the future with NY but the swan song could certainly sing pretty close).

Got that? After knowing he would have a guaranteed $20M+ from the Knicks if they matched that first contract, plus the gobs of money from endorsements, say another $10+ over the course of a couple of years (so now a total of maybe $30+M), Lin was OK with walking away from the storyline for $6M.

Lin didn't know if the Knicks would match or not but decided to let $6M and whim tangle with his Linsanity instead of pressing his will onto Knicks history ala someone like Clyde.


It is a business and Dolan just made a blunder. Our cards have to be laid just right for us to have a chance for a championship.
Now, to me and all us average Joe's: what lifestyle difference is there between $30M and $36M when you come from $800K?

And if he did believe in Linsanity and his own talents, his next contract would have been through the roof and that $6M would have been negligible.

For me: Lin walked away from the Knicks (and Linsanity) as much as the Knicks did not match Lin's second offer.


We had the last say and let him walk for nothing, zero. I hate to call a person an asset, but Lin had a very reasonable contract those first two years. We messed up and it very well might have cost us a ring. We are walking on eggshells regarding the age of this team now AND having one of our two top scorers with a back issue, past knee issues, etc.

One bad injury and we are done. I take the 15 million insurance policy in Lin that pays for itself.
(and if it doesn't, so what, it is chump change to a huge corp/person in MSG/Dolan)

EMS

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. Albert Einstein
jrodmc
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7/24/2012  8:15 AM
BigDaddyG wrote:
Rookie wrote:Golden State Warriors (2010–2011)

On July 21, 2010, Lin signed a two-year deal with his hometown Warriors, his favorite team growing up. Lin's deal was partially guaranteed for 2010–11, and the Warriors held a team option for the second season.[46] The deal included a first-year salary of close to $500,000 with more than half of it guaranteed.[47] Lin said the counteroffers from the three other teams were higher, but he wanted to play for the Warriors.[48] Lin's agent Roger Montgomery negotiated the deal with the Warriors.[38] Lin also signed a three-year guaranteed contract with Nike.[49] His jersey was already on sale before his first NBA game.[50]

The Warriors held a press conference for Lin after his signing, with national media in attendance. "It was surprising to see that ... for an undrafted rookie," said then-Warriors coach Keith Smart.[51] The San Jose Mercury News wrote that Lin "had something of a cult following" after his signing.[52] The San Francisco Bay Area, with its large Asian-American population, celebrated his arrival.[2] He became the first American of Chinese or Taiwanese descent to play in the NBA.[2][53][54] Lin received the loudest ovation of the night in the Warriors' home exhibition opener at Oracle Arena when he entered the game in the fourth quarter.[55] The crowd had started chanting for him in the third quarter and cheered whenever he touched the ball. "That really touched me. It's something I'll remember forever," Lin said.[56] During the first month of the season, Oracle Arena fans continued to root for Lin to play in the end of games and cheered every time he touched the ball.[57] He drew cheers from the crowd on the road as well, with some writers attributing the attention to the unique story of a successful Asian-American basketball player.[5][58] Still, Lin played more relaxed on the road, where he felt less scrutiny and pressure to perform.[57] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Lin

Linsanity was gonna happen soon as he got regular playing time and would have happened anywhere....making him a starter and the win streak only added to the story. The media picked up on it and ran with it. Seriously, how many un-drafted players get a Nike contract and their jersey on sale before they even play a regular season game?

Not questioning his popularity. But I doubt Linsanity reaches the heights it did in New York if Jeremy where in Utah, Sacramento or most other markets in the NBA. There was a synergy with his popularity and the NY media that we may never see happen again.

What does this story tell you? That he's popular with Asian Americans? What did that have to do with Linsanity? I forget, was there Yaomania? No. The big guy had a nice little career that was hampered by injuries. Why? Mostly because in order to get attention in Houston, you have to win chips.

Getting cheers from the crowd in Oracle Arena is not quite the same as the intense scrutiny and mega-attention he got by playing and performing at a high level for the Knicks. The platform makes a player like Lin, not his so-called "popularity".

Once again, remember the main lesson learned during the lockout? It's not the players, it's the platform they play on. No platform, no Linsanity.

Please, get over this egalitarian everything's equal all over the world bs. It's not. This is NY City. If you don't think things are different here, than they are in Houston or (for the love of God) Golden State, you have a perception problem.

If Lin would have done the same thing with any other team as he did with the Knicks. Would he have been as popular??

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